Other Chicago & General Sports Thread LVII: Bulls draft Carter & Hutchison

[piteus]

I love NYC for some of its features (museums, restaurants, architecture, etc) but it seems like the people there (making a generalization but I do not mean everyone) are dbags just to be dbags. I have traveled the world and NYC's population has been by far the most hostile and off-putting.

I grew up in the suburbs in Chicago. I quickly learned to have a thick skin living in NYC. We are not nice. It is what it is. We can be dbags. One time I used to be nice to tourists asking for directions. Now I just don't have the time. I just point to the area and keep walking.

My Chicago friends tell me how impatient I can be when I visit. It usually takes me a day or two to get back into Chicago attitude. When I'm in SD, it's even worse. The key is I can take it back a level or two having grown up in Chicago. Most New Yorkers don't know how.

 

[clydesdale line]

Right now, Bagley has the highest upside ... but Doncic wouldn't be a bad consolation.

People are sleeping on Ayton. That kid is just a physical freak. Tremendous upside. Haven't seen a center prospect like him since Embiid. Hell, some are even saying he's the best center prospect they've seen since Shaq (although I wouldn't go that far personally).

 

[BK]

I grew up in the suburbs in Chicago. I quickly learned to have a thick skin living in NYC. We are not nice. It is what it is. We can be dbags. One time I used to be nice to tourists asking for directions. Now I just don't have the time. I just point to the area and keep walking.

My Chicago friends tell me how impatient I can be when I visit. It usually takes me a day or two to get back into Chicago attitude. When I'm in SD, it's even worse. The key is I can take it back a level or two having grown up in Chicago. Most New Yorkers don't know how.

100% get that and I am not saying you are a dbag just to be clear.

I just laugh when I am in NYC (except if I am near tourist traps then I want to spoon my eyes out).

 

[piteus]

100% get that and I am not saying you are a dbag just to be clear.

I just laugh when I am in NYC (except if I am near tourist traps then I want to spoon my eyes out).

Oh ... most of us in Manhattan are dbags. I don't disagree. I don't think most New Yorkers would. Of course, most people who live in Manhattan are transplants. You go to the outer boroughs ... they are even meaner. That's no joke.

 

[piteus]

People are sleeping on Ayton. That kid is just a physical freak. Tremendous upside. Haven't seen a center prospect like him since Embiid. Hell, some are even saying he's the best center prospect they've seen since Shaq (although I wouldn't go that far personally).

The problem with Ayton is his 'so called' motor. With Zona's meltdown, Ayton's stock is falling. I'm not saying he can't be great. I'm just saying there are even more doubts from the beginning of the season. He needs to help turn the team around. His physical assets are undeniable.

 

[LDF]

Bulls news.

Zach LaVine May Not Return Until January

 

[Rooh]

People are sleeping on Ayton. That kid is just a physical freak. Tremendous upside. Haven't seen a center prospect like him since Embiid. Hell, some are even saying he's the best center prospect they've seen since Shaq (although I wouldn't go that far personally).

I was low on him a while ago because I thought his defense was a bit weak, but it's a lot better than I was originally thinking.

He's good at switching, and defending out on the perimeter, overall not a low I.Q defender but he isn't a rim protector yet which is strange considering he is so long and athletic.

Again I was very low on him before but taking another look I would put Ayton and Bagley in the same tier, Ayton has the better numbers right now but I do think Bagley has a higher ceiling. Will be interesting to see Ayton vs one of the best frontcourts in the nation tonight.(Texas A&M)

 

[LDF]

I was low on him a while ago because I thought his defense was a bit weak, but it's a lot better than I was originally thinking.

He's good at switching, and defending out on the perimeter, overall not a low I.Q defender but he isn't a rim protector yet which is strange considering he is so long and athletic.

Again I was very low on him before but taking another look I would put Ayton and Bagley in the same tier, Ayton has the better numbers right now but I do think Bagley has a higher ceiling. Will be interesting to see Ayton vs one of the best frontcourts in the nation tonight.(Texas A&M)

when the tourney starts, i also see some pf / c who may make a push it is going to be a great draft.

 

[piteus]

I was low on him a while ago because I thought his defense was a bit weak, but it's a lot better than I was originally thinking.

He's good at switching, and defending out on the perimeter, overall not a low I.Q defender but he isn't a rim protector yet which is strange considering he is so long and athletic.

Again I was very low on him before but taking another look I would put Ayton and Bagley in the same tier, Ayton has the better numbers right now but I do think Bagley has a higher ceiling. Will be interesting to see Ayton vs one of the best frontcourts in the nation tonight.(Texas A&M)

Bagley and Ayton have almost exactly the same numbers ... except Bagley's played against superior competition. How does Ayton have better numbers?

 

[Rooh]

when the tourney starts, i also see some pf / c who may make a push it is going to be a great draft.

This top 4 seems very rare, people may say "Oh that's what they say every year" but Doncic, Bagley and Ayton are producing some historical traditional and advanced numbers up there with Davis, KD, Embiid, Oden, Harden and Griffin.

This draft was originally supposed to be just MPJ and Ayton until Doncic came out of nowhere and worked his way up in Europe then Bagley reclassifying when he was the top prospect in 2019. This is a draft where I honestly wouldn't be to worried about potentially falling to 4.

 

[LDF]

This top 4 seems very rare, people may say "Oh that's what they say every year" but Doncic, Bagley and Ayton are producing some historical traditional and advanced numbers up there with Davis, KD, Embiid, Oden, Harden and Griffin.

This draft was originally supposed to be just MPJ and Ayton until Doncic came out of nowhere and worked his way up in Europe then Bagley reclassifying when he was the top prospect in 2019. This is a draft where I honestly wouldn't be to worried about potentially falling to 4.

this draft is singlehandedly making me a B-ball fan again.

 

[Rooh]

Bagley and Ayton have almost exactly the same numbers ... except Bagley's played against superior competition. How does Ayton have better numbers?

Ayton has higher advanced numbers, efficiency, impact, defense all favor Ayton right now. Ayton is getting up there with Embiid and Oden right now when looking through some of the impact/plus-minus numbers.

 

[piteus]

Ayton has higher advanced numbers, efficiency, impact, defense all favor Ayton right now. Ayton is getting up there with Embiid and Oden right now when looking through some of the impact/plus-minus numbers.

Have you looked at who Ayton played? His team also lost to Purdue, SMU, and NCST. In fact, blown out by Purdue. They barely squeaked out a win over UNLV. Watch the games. That team is not good and they have a ton of talent and experience.

Even their advanced numbers aren't that different. Not enough to highlight Ayton is putting up better numbers. The PER is pretty much the same and Ayton's BPM is +1. That said, Ayton's competition has been horse poop. You have to be careful when you look at the numbers without context.

I like Ayton. I don't think he's as good as those numbers suggest.

 

[Rooh]

Looking through draft models on advanced plus-minus (RAPM), over the last 15 years this is where Doncic, Bagley and Ayton stack up among other prospects.

Doncic (by a good margin)
Davis
Durant
Irving (small sample size)
Beasley
Ball
Love
Embiid
Oden
Ayton
Tyrus Thomas (lol good college player)
Towns
Simmons
Bagley
Harden
Griffin
Noel
Fultz
That is a nice list, big outlier is Thomas and a few smaller outliers in Noel and Beasley although Beasley had insane college numbers and a poor work ethic. Also Porter Jr was projected to be ranked around #10 before his injury.

 

[piteus]

Looking through draft models on advanced plus-minus (RAPM), over the last 15 years this is where Doncic, Bagley and Ayton stack up among other prospects.

Doncic (by a good margin)
Davis
Durant
Irving (small sample size)
Beasley
Ball
Love
Embiid
Oden
Ayton
Tyrus Thomas (lol good college player)
Towns
Simmons
Bagley
Harden
Griffin
Noel
Fultz
That is a nice list, big outlier is Thomas and a few smaller ones are Noel and Beasley although Beasley had insane college numbers and a poor work ethic. Also Porter Jr was projected to be ranked around #10 before his injury.

You can't put Doncic's numbers with the NCAA. Europe plays a different game. That's comparing apples and oranges. Every player except Doncic played in the NCAA.

 

[Rooh]

Have you looked at who Ayton played? His team also lost to Purdue, SMU, and NCST. In fact, blown out by Purdue. They barely squeaked out a win over UNLV. Watch the games. That team is not good and they have a ton of talent and experience.

Even their advanced numbers aren't that different. Not enough to highlight Ayton is putting up better numbers. The PER is pretty much the same and Ayton's BPM is +1. That said, Ayton's competition has been horse poop. You have to be careful when you look at the numbers without context.

I like Ayton. I don't think he's as good as those numbers suggest.

Arizona has awful defense right now and it doesn't have anything to do with Ayton none of there problems have anything to do with Ayton. I don't care much for team success just look at Ben Simmons as an example. He isn't just putting up numbers you see great potential watching him just look at the way he moves around the court he has some wild physical traits.

 

[piteus]

Arizona has awful defense right now and it doesn't have anything to do with Ayton none of there problems have anything to do with Ayton. I don't care much for team success just look at Ben Simmons as an example. He isn't just putting up numbers you see great potential watching him just look at the way he moves around the court he has some wild physical traits.

The argument for DeAndre Ayton is Ben Simmons. However, what's the difference? One likes the ball in his hands. The other plays off the ball. Also, Johnny Johnson rarely won at LSU (except when he has the M&M boys). Sean Miller's Cats have always been good defensively and won. What's going on? Is it just the FBI investigation?

Can DeAndre Ayton impact the NBA? Is he just a center or can he play the wing? Ayton is 7'1" 250lbs. Why isn't he improving Zona's defense? Is he playing selfishly? Does he play to win? Unlike Simmons' LSU, some people along with Duke had Zona #1 in talent. The physical talent is there ... but there are more questions to his game than before.

Compare that to Bagley. That guy brought a largely freshmen team back to win against MSU, Texas, Indiana, and Florida. He did it against NBA talent. That's what separates Bagley from Ayton for now. There's plenty of time for Ayton to prove himself. However, Ayton's numbers have to be taken at context.

 

[Rooh]

You can't put Doncic's numbers with the NCAA. Europe plays a different game. That's comparing apples and oranges. Every player except Doncic played in the NCAA.

The stat estimates how the player would perform in the NCAA by establishing the relative strength of schedule for the multitude of overseas leagues. The method has it's flaws but I like the way the international players stack up with the NCAA players.

Rubio is the next European after Doncic ranked in the 20s then after that Capela, Gobert and Porzingis rounding out the 30-40 spots.

 

[piteus]

The stat estimates how the player would perform in the NCAA by establishing the relative strength of schedule for the multitude of overseas leagues. The method has it's flaws but I like the way the international players stack up with the NCAA players.

Rubio is the next European after Doncic ranked in the 20s then after that Capela, Gobert and Porzingis rounding out the 30-40 spots.

Again, it's trying to compare apples and oranges. I like Doncic, but using his overseas stats vs. NCAA players doesn't make sense. Compare him to the other European players. That's a better way to differentiate Doncic's ilk. Like I said, how are you going to sell Doncic's upside to the American fans. Is he the next Chris Mullins? Larry Bird? Magic Johnson? Jason Kidd? There haven't been many Europeans under 6'10" who've starred in the NBA ... especially not physically gifted. Why is he different? Those are the questions you have to answer. That's just reality. Look what Lauri Markannen went through ... and he played in Arizona to prove himself.

Speaking of Lauri, he won at Zona. Why is Ayton failing so badly with a lot of the same talent?

 

[Rooh]

Again, it's trying to compare apples and oranges. I like Doncic, but using his overseas stats vs. NCAA players doesn't make sense. Compare him to the other European players. That's a better way to differentiate Doncic's ilk. Like I said, how are you going to sell Doncic's upside to the American fans. Is he the next Chris Mullins? Larry Bird? Magic Johnson? Jason Kidd? There haven't been many Europeans under 6'10" who've starred in the NBA ... especially not physically gifted. Why is he different? Those are the questions you have to answer. That's just reality. Look what Lauri Markannen went through ... and he played around Arizona to prove himself.

Why is he different? Doncic is putting up the best numbers of all-time in the second best league in the world at the age of 18. You really think Doncic wouldn't completely just decimate at the NCAA level? That is crazy to me he is playing against former NBA players and pros that can actually make NBA/G-League rosters. Doncic is playing PROS while college prospects like Bagley and Ayton are playing KIDS and majority will never play any form of pro ball.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Breaking News

Russia has been banned from 2018 Winter Olympics!

 

[HawksBeerFan]

Breaking News

Russia has been banned from 2018 Winter Olympics!

Very much deserved. Good on the IOC.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Hockey isn't going to be good though without Russians and NHL players to be honest

 

[piteus]

Why is he different? Doncic is putting up the best numbers of all-time in the second best league in the world at the age of 18. You really think Doncic wouldn't completely just decimate at the NCAA level? That is crazy to me he is playing against former NBA players and pros that can actually make NBA/G-League rosters. Doncic is playing PROS while college prospects like Bagley and Ayton are playing KIDS and majority will never play any form of pro ball.

Europe is a different game. You keep thinking it's the same but it's not. How many scrubs from the US went to Europe to have a long and fruitful career? I can name a countless number of great college players who've done extremely well in Europe ... who couldn't sniff a NBA roster. What NBA player goes to Europe by choice? Josh Childress?

Who are the Europeans who "decimated" NCAA basketball? Markannen? Poeltl? Sabonis? Len? LOL. Bottomline: how many American scrubs from the US go to Europe and do well? Too many to count.

That does not mean Doncic can't be good in the US. However, the US and Europe are 2 different games. It's very different ... especially for guards.

So sell me why Doncic will be great in America? Because at 18 years of age he's beating G League Americans playing European basketball?

Do you know anything about soccer? There's a reason why Europeans scoff at Americans playing soccer in the US. It's a different game. Americans soccer players are great until ~17 ... and then they stop developing. It wasn't until Pulisic the narrative changed. Even then, Pulisic trained in Germany from the age of 15.

The Great Teodosic hurt himself in a couple of games. Is he a NBA player? Sure. A star? Absolutely not. Tell us why you think Doncic's "intangibles" gives him a higher upside than other European guards before? NBA scouts draft on potential. Why will Doncic continue to grow as a player? Why will he able to compete against the elite NBA guards? Jimmer Fredette killed it in the G Leagues too. The same thing was said about Mirotic for years.

That's not to say Doncic can't do it ... but you seem to think that the European game is the same as the US. It's not. Even hockey is different in Europe vs. North America.

 

[piteus]

Hockey isn't going to be good though without Russians and NHL players to be honest

I'm glad the NHL called out the IOC. They want to make money on back of "nationalism." Then share the rewards with the owners who pay the players' salaries. It's a fair ask.