Speculation: Oshie factor?

[KingBran]

Oshie taking the fall for the core being inept was one of DA's biggest faults. He said major changes were coming to the core and only traded Oshie. Blues got 1 year of Brower out of it... wahoo...

I saw this thread about Oshie had 74 replies so I felt compelled to respond.

 

[Cotton McKnight]

Oshie taking the fall for the core being inept was one of DA's biggest faults. He said major changes were coming to the core and only traded Oshie. Blues got 1 year of Brower out of it... wahoo...

I saw this thread about Oshie had 74 replies so I felt compelled to respond.

Yeah, not DA's finest hour, but how many finest hours does he really have?

I know, I know, they don't have to be listed for me, I'm just not anywhere close to being DA's #1 fan.

Outside of Oshie, who else should have we moved way back when?

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I don't understand the Oshie trade, and really doubt that as fans we have enough information about why it went down like that. Its certainly plausible that it was a dumb move. But I think Armstrong can call, "Scoreboard" on that one, since the team DID make its deepest run the next season. Its arguable how much Brouwer contributed to that, or Oshie's absence let other players step forward. But something with that team clicked in a way that it hadn't previously, so I kind of feel like Armstrong deserves the benefit of the doubt. Maybe there are circumstances we are ignorant of that make moving Oshie more urgent? I'm willing to suspend disbelief.

 

[KingBran]

Yeah, not DA's finest hour, but how many finest hours does he really have?

I know, I know, they don't have to be listed for me, I'm just not anywhere close to being DA's #1 fan.

Outside of Oshie, who else should have we moved way back when?

At the time I wanted to get rid of Backes and Steen too. I was expecting big core changes and it didn't happen. I was actually OK with the Oshie trade but was expecting a lot more domino's to fall.

When it was realized that was the only move I was pissed. I just didnt see Osh as the fall guy. Would much rather have kept him than trade JUST him for that dismal return.

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

The problem that I've always had with the Oshie trade was how DA handled the cap flexibility from Brouwer's shorter term that following summer. Had he made a big move utilizing the extra ~4mil in cap space, it would've been a much better trade, but instead, we ended up with Yakupov.

 

[Renard]

I don't understand the Oshie trade, and really doubt that as fans we have enough information about why it went down like that. Its certainly plausible that it was a dumb move. But I think Armstrong can call, "Scoreboard" on that one, since the team DID make its deepest run the next season. Its arguable how much Brouwer contributed to that, or Oshie's absence let other players step forward. But something with that team clicked in a way that it hadn't previously, so I kind of feel like Armstrong deserves the benefit of the doubt. Maybe there are circumstances we are ignorant of that make moving Oshie more urgent? I'm willing to suspend disbelief.

I agree. Even the most casual of fans recognized at the time that we didn't get nearly enough in return for Oshie. Do people think that Doug Armstrong doesn't know as much as a casual fan ?

I assume that there was more to the story than we know, just as I believe that there was more to letting Hull leave town as a free agent years ago. We do know that Oshie annoyed the organization on several occasions that got into the news. We don't know how many annoyances stayed out of the news.

 

[Celtic Note]

I agree. Even the most casual of fans recognized at the time that we didn't get nearly enough in return for Oshie. Do people think that Doug Armstrong doesn't know as much as a casual fan ?

I assume that there was more to the story than we know, just as I believe that there was more to letting Hull leave town as a free agent years ago. We do know that Oshie annoyed the organization on several occasions that got into the news. We don't know how many annoyances stayed out of the news.

Here is the thing...he was mostly correct in what he said. Being called out sucks, but using him as a scapegoat just further illustrated the point

 

[cardinalnation]

These are human beings and some if them are Tools. It's a factor whether fans want to believe it or not. Brett Hull became completely insufferable after his 70 season. I never met the guy but used to know people that worked down there. To a man they told me what an * hole Brett was.

Oshie was also Extremely arrogant but nowhere near the jerk level of Hull. There were certain guys on the team that didn't like it. Oshie also made some comments in the media that we're probably better left for a team leader to say. Just my opinion but T.J is a nice kid that was immature and a little full of himself. That doesn't always go ever well in This sport. His girlfriend had just had a baby before this went down. I would not be surprised if Oshie had grown up a lot since then. Now before someone here loses their **** over what I am saying keep in mind these two are amongst my favorite players of all time. In any group no matter what the job is you are going to have personalities that rub against others and cause friction. Some trades are made for reasons other than hockey. When the other GM's see this develop they will pounce and the return will not be what it would be otherwise. Case in point is the Ottawa thing this year. Any team in the league could have had Hoffman for below market value. That is a mistake by Armstrong in my book. Hoffman is precisely the type of player we needed. Guy can skate and has skill. Of course we don't know what kind of guy he is or what was said behind closed doors.

 

[KingBran]

Here is the thing...he was mostly correct in what he said. Being called out sucks, but using him as a scapegoat just further illustrated the point

Well it was that stuff and him showing up drunk to a North Dakota hockey game and doing an interview talking about V-necks and sushi.

I am not defending those as good reasons to move a guy, just explaining that I think they are part of the "problem" managment saw.

 

[Celtic Note]

Well it was that stuff and him showing up drunk to a North Dakota hockey game and doing an interview talking about V-necks and sushi.

I am not defending those as good reasons to move a guy, just explaining that I think they are part of the "problem" managment saw.

He certainly was no saint

 

[BlueDream]

Well it was that stuff and him showing up drunk to a North Dakota hockey game and doing an interview talking about V-necks and sushi.

I am not defending those as good reasons to move a guy, just explaining that I think they are part of the "problem" managment saw.

Maybe I’m missing something here but what is honestly so bad about being drunk at a college hockey game? He just happened to be interviewed, but it’s not like he was dropping cuss words on air or doing anything inappropriate. Like you said, he was just talking about random stuff. No clue why anyone would have an issue with that.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Maybe I’m missing something here but what is honestly so bad about being drunk at a college hockey game? He just happened to be interviewed, but it’s not like he was dropping cuss words on air or doing anything inappropriate. Like you said, he was just talking about random stuff. No clue why anyone would have an issue with that.

I think the broadcast crew there had a responsibility to not embarrass the guy by putting him on the air. It was unprofessional, even though Oshie is ultimately responsible for his own behavior. But it wasn't really that bad. He just acted goofy and started telling a story, then stopping himself.

 

[BlueDream]

I think the broadcast crew there had a responsibility to not embarrass the guy by putting him on the air. It was unprofessional, even though Oshie is ultimately responsible for his own behavior. But it wasn't really that bad. He just acted goofy and started telling a story, then stopping himself.

Exactly. Plus, you have a NHL player attending a game of his alma matter. I'd be shocked if he DIDN'T drink alcohol.

 

[Majorityof1]

Well it was that stuff and him showing up drunk to a North Dakota hockey game and doing an interview talking about V-necks and sushi.

I am not defending those as good reasons to move a guy, just explaining that I think they are part of the "problem" managment saw.

So we traded Oshie in 2015 due to an interview he did in 2010? Damn, the Blues can hold a grudge. Revenge is a dish best served 5 years later.

 

[KingBran]

So we traded Oshie in 2015 due to an interview he did in 2010? Damn, the Blues can hold a grudge. Revenge is a dish best served 5 years later.

Maybe try actually reading what I wrote. It was pretty obvious the Blues FO didn't like some of his off ice antics. And 100% that incident was PART of the problem. The Blues started banning people on the old forum they ran when people talked about it.

I swear sometimes you just look for reasons to argue.

 

[Majorityof1]

Maybe try actually reading what I wrote. It was pretty obvious the Blues FO didn't like some of his off ice antics. And 100% that incident was PART of the problem. The Blues started banning people on the old forum they ran when people talked about it.

I swear sometimes you just look for reasons to argue.

I did read what you wrote. Celtic said he was traded for his comments about Hitch. You said "Well it was that stuff and him showing up drunk to a North Dakota hockey game and doing an interview talking about V-necks and sushi." You wote nothing about any other antics.

He was traded for speaking out against Hitch and because the Blues needed a scapegoat. Full stop. There are no stories of his partying or drinking or anything of the sort around the time he was traded. That's why you cited something 5 years before he was traded because its all you had. He was married and became a father between those two events. That changes a person. He had grown up quite a bit. You don't stick with someone for 5 years after an incident and move them when they have grown up and stopped doing those things.

If you don't want me to argue with you, don't push a half-baked BS narrative.

 

[KingBran]

I did read what you wrote. Celtic said he was traded for his comments about Hitch. You said "Well it was that stuff and him showing up drunk to a North Dakota hockey game and doing an interview talking about V-necks and sushi." You wote nothing about any other antics.

He was traded for speaking out against Hitch and because the Blues needed a scapegoat. Full stop. There are no stories of his partying or drinking or anything of the sort around the time he was traded. That's why you cited something 5 years before he was traded because its all you had. He was married and became a father between those two events. That changes a person. He had grown up quite a bit. You don't stick with someone for 5 years after an incident and move them when they have grown up and stopped doing those things.

If you don't want me to argue with you, don't push a half-baked BS narrative.

I said the Blues FO saw some of those antics are PART of the problem. Quit being so dramatic.

I don't agree with thinking those things actually were a problem with him. Just pointing them out. It's not a half baked narrative. The Blues were very obvious about not liking some of those things.

Like I said, they banned people on the official Blues forum if they talked about drunk Oshie at North Dakota. I knew one of the mod's there fairly well and that directive came from way up above. The Blues didn't want anyone talking about it. They were super embarassed by it.

The Blues forum went defunct soon after that.

 

[BlueDream]

Trading players because they get drunk sometimes is flat out stupid. That interview should not have had any affect at all on Oshie’s status with the team and if it did then the front office was morons.

See Boston with Tyler Seguin.

 

[Majorityof1]

I said the Blues FO saw some of those antics are PART of the problem. Quit being so dramatic.

I don't agree with thinking those things actually were a problem with him. Just pointing them out. It's not a half baked narrative. The Blues were very obvious about not liking some of those things.

Like I said, they banned people on the official Blues forum if they talked about drunk Oshie at North Dakota. I knew one of the mod's there fairly well and that directive came from way up above. The Blues didn't want anyone talking about it. They were super embarassed by it.

The Blues forum went defunct soon after that.

I am trying to see your point of view on this, I really am, but I just don't get it. You keep bringing up the forum thing like it is dispositve about something. I doubt hockey operations has much to say about what was posted on the forum. It was either the PR, marketing or maybe ownership. The only one of those who could push Armstrong to trade Oshie was ownership; however, it was a totally different ownership group. Stillman and company took over in 2012. 2+ years after the interview and 3 years before he was traded. Another thing that happened in 2012, Oshie was re-signed. Why re-sign him if they were so embarrassed about the interview?

In 2010, Oshie was 23, single and just out of college when the interview happened. But he was a talented and marketable player. The PR/marketing team didn't want him to get a reputation as a party-boy so they squashed the interview where they could. Oshie goes on to sell a shit-ton of jerseys for a Blues player. 2012 new ownership takes over who has no stake in what happened in 2010. 2014, Oshie is now 27 and a father, he is no longer a threat to have a repeat of that incident in the future. At some point along the way he was given the alternate Captaincy by the hockey operations team. In 2015, Oshie criticizes Hitch in the media. A month later at the first opportunity after criticizing Hitch, Oshie is shipped out.

Also, you keep saying some of those things-plural, but only ever list one thing-singular. He made one mistake and people to this day think of him as a hard-partying locker-room cancer. Maybe that is why the team quashed talk about it, to quash the BS narrative that's cropped up around it. To me its like someone saying the Blues didn't re-sign Backes in 2016 because they were pissed he signed an offer sheet in 2008. I'm sure they were pissed, but that had nothing to do with a decision years later.

How do you equate a mistake Oshie made in 2010 at 23 and subsequent team forum decisions to a hockey operations decision on a player who is now a mature 27 under wholly new management (who signed him to a new contract and made him an "A" in the interim)? Why is Chewbacca, a wookie from Kashyyk, living with a bunch of muppets on Endor? It doesn't make sense!!!

 

[KingBran]

I am trying to see your point of view on this, I really am, but I just don't get it. You keep bringing up the forum thing like it is dispositve about something. I doubt hockey operations has much to say about what was posted on the forum. It was either the PR, marketing or maybe ownership. The only one of those who could push Armstrong to trade Oshie was ownership; however, it was a totally different ownership group. Stillman and company took over in 2012. 2+ years after the interview and 3 years before he was traded. Another thing that happened in 2012, Oshie was re-signed. Why re-sign him if they were so embarrassed about the interview?

In 2010, Oshie was 23, single and just out of college when the interview happened. But he was a talented and marketable player. The PR/marketing team didn't want him to get a reputation as a party-boy so they squashed the interview where they could. Oshie goes on to sell a ****-ton of jerseys for a Blues player. 2012 new ownership takes over who has no stake in what happened in 2010. 2014, Oshie is now 27 and a father, he is no longer a threat to have a repeat of that incident in the future. At some point along the way he was given the alternate Captaincy by the hockey operations team. In 2015, Oshie criticizes Hitch in the media. A month later at the first opportunity after criticizing Hitch, Oshie is shipped out.

Also, you keep saying some of those things-plural, but only ever list one thing-singular. He made one mistake and people to this day think of him as a hard-partying locker-room cancer. Maybe that is why the team quashed talk about it, to quash the BS narrative that's cropped up around it. To me its like someone saying the Blues didn't re-sign Backes in 2016 because they were pissed he signed an offer sheet in 2008. I'm sure they were pissed, but that had nothing to do with a decision years later.

How do you equate a mistake Oshie made in 2010 at 23 and subsequent team forum decisions to a hockey operations decision on a player who is now a mature 27 under wholly new management (who signed him to a new contract and made him an "A" in the interim)? Why is Chewbacca, a wookie from Kashyyk, living with a bunch of muppets on Endor? It doesn't make sense!!!

You can talk about Wookies and Endor all you want. It just proves how loony you are getting over this.

The bannings on the official forum came from way up the chain whether you want to believe it or not. It doesn't bother me. It's 100% true.

You are going way off the rails for the 2 sentences of mine you first quoted. You are just too far off topic, making no sense and trying to argue. I just pointed out something the Blues FO saw as PART of the problem and offered no opinion of it at the time. YOU took that as they traded him because he was drunk at an ND game 5 years before he was traded. That's your problem if you can't read English properly. Not mine.

Done with you.

 

[Majorityof1]

You can talk about Wookies and Endor all you want. It just proves how loony you are getting over this.

The bannings on the official forum came from way up the chain whether you want to believe it or not. It doesn't bother me. It's 100% true.

You are going way off the rails for the 2 sentences of mine you first quoted. You are just too far off topic, making no sense and trying to argue. I just pointed out something the Blues FO saw as PART of the problem and offered no opinion of it at the time. YOU took that as they traded him because he was drunk at an ND game 5 years before he was traded. That's your problem if you can't read English properly. Not mine.

Done with you.

Why do you keep stressing the word "part"? I know what you are arguing. I am saying it was NOT ANY PART of the reason they traded him. It wasn't a thing in 2015, at all. It wasn't mentioned in any conversation on trading him. It played no part in their decision. If it did, that is ridiculously stupid to trade someone for behavior from 5 years ago, beyond any level of stupid the Blues have ever exhibited.

I may be going off the rails for 2 sentences, but you aren't addressing any of my points. Why give him the "A" if they were still miffed about "his antics"? Why was Doug Armstrong (the one who decided to trade him) involved in internet forum policy in 2010? Why would different ownership care what happened in 2010 when it has no happened in their 3 years of ownership and is unlikely to ever happen again?

The Wookie thing was a South Park reference for a joke. It's about equating two things that don't have any relation to each other. Here's the clip...

 

[Renard]

As was said above, we fans don't have all the facts.

I will say that if I was a general manager of an NHL team, and a good but not great player caused organizational trouble on a regular basis, and continued to do so despite warnings and pleading, I would try to trade the guy. And that wouldn't make me an idiot.

 

[Majorityof1]

As was said above, we fans don't have all the facts.

I will say that if I was a general manager of an NHL team, and a good but not great player caused organizational trouble on a regular basis, and continued to do so despite warnings and pleading, I would try to trade the guy. And that wouldn't make me an idiot.

If it was on a regular basis and if he was still causing problems, yes. We saw it with Buffalo trading Evander Kane and Ottawa with Hoffman (it wasn't even him, it was his GF). But that is a straw-man in the current argument. Oshie was not casuing problems when he was moved, anytime recent to when he was moved, nor did he cause trouble on a regular basis. There is no evidence at all that it was a regular or current issue with Oshie in 2015. The only trouble he caused at that time was his comments about Hitch, which I concede was a big part of the reason he was traded. Nobody has mentioned any other incident besides one that happened in 2010.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Yeah, not DA's finest hour, but how many finest hours does he really have?

According to some, ... how many trades has he made here? All of those, except perhaps one, the Miller trade - and even that he still gets at least 3/4 credit for because ... the grandeur that continues to be Steve Ott.

Outside of Oshie, who else should have we moved way back when?

Honestly, I'm not sure we needed to move anyone. We needed stability in net. We needed confidence in the team from above. DA wasn't willing to give any of that because he was so fixated on being declared right, being called the smartest guy in the room, that he wasn't about to let anyone tell him he was wrong.

But I think Armstrong can call, "Scoreboard" on that one, since the team DID make its deepest run the next season.

Well, yes - for that season, he can claim that. Longer term? Last year, 2 guys dealt away by DA were going to win the Cup; if it hadn't been Oshie and Eller, it was going to be Reaves and Perron. Cole was on the two years prior for Pittsburgh. [And Eller getting traded, I get at the time - so I'll ignore him for the rest of this.]

But ... we've got a 3rd-pairing defenseman who's defensively reliable for the 55-60 games he's healthy, a highly skilled forward still working on getting his act together in the AHL, Barbashev [who ... is he a top-6 guy? A bottom-6 guy? Both? Neither?], and a 2016 WCF appearance that we blew with home ice advantage [after nearly blowing both prior series with a 3-1 lead and Game 5 at home, and a 3-2 lead with Game 6 at home]. And, a team that after 30 games maybe is finally getting its act together - but who really knows. [And who knows what our glorious GM is going to do to "improve" things before the trade deadline.]

I agree. Even the most casual of fans recognized at the time that we didn't get nearly enough in return for Oshie. Do people think that Doug Armstrong doesn't know as much as a casual fan ?

I'll put it this way: when Joe Thornton was traded to San Jose, the Bruins got back Marco Sturm, Brad Stuart, and Wayne Primeau. No one in their right mind thinks that JT was "only" worth that in late 2005; however, the Bruins were only talking to a few teams and were relatively desperate to move him and so they took considerably less than what they could have had by putting him on the open market. [And of course, after the fact it was Joe had off-ice issues and then it was we won the Stanley Cup before he did, so it was all worth it and so on - ignoring that nothing the Bruins got in that trade did squat toward pushing the Bruins to the Cup in '11.]

I think people give DA more credit than he deserves. I think DA only talked to a few teams about dealing Oshie, despite his comments to the contrary. I think he was hell-bent on "doing something" and didn't care about actually getting fair value, he was moving a guy out to show everyone I'm really serious when I say I'm making changes and Oshie was the convenient scapegoat, the fans' Abuse Boy, the easy target whose move would satisfy the fan base and gain him support and take away attention from the past 3 years of playoff disappointments and any scrutiny of DA's role in those failures.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

You can talk about Wookies and Endor all you want. It just proves how loony you are getting over this.

The bannings on the official forum came from way up the chain whether you want to believe it or not. It doesn't bother me. It's 100% true.

You are going way off the rails for the 2 sentences of mine you first quoted. You are just too far off topic, making no sense and trying to argue. I just pointed out something the Blues FO saw as PART of the problem and offered no opinion of it at the time. YOU took that as they traded him because he was drunk at an ND game 5 years before he was traded. That's your problem if you can't read English properly. Not mine.

Done with you.

Another thing that happened during that span was that he became a well-known Olympic hero, even more marketable. I would think that development would outweigh any concerns the team had about something from 5 years before.

I think sometimes as a manager you realize you just need to stir up the pot. Its not that a specific person is at fault, but you know that you aren't making the kind of soup you want, so something has to change. I think Oshie became the designated guy to move, probably based on input from Hitchcock. If there are more incidents, I wish you'd explain what they were, because as a close observer of the team I don't remember anything else.

I think your response to Majority is not congruent with the level way he presented his argument. You're kind of just ignoring his salient points and coming across as emotional about it. No one is insulting you here. But you have repeatedly hinted at something without saying what it was. I'm suspecting maybe you don't actually have any incidents to tell us about.