Post-Game Talk: Oilers Saving Time

[Broberg Speed]

I don't disagree. People have been clamoring for the Oilers to go out and acquire someone, anyone, because it could be a diamond in the rough "Adin Hill is my hero" goalie, but they already have it in Pickard.

Campbell can help this team most by not being here next season, imo. Get rid of the talking point altogether.

Maybe that would help "you" and not the Oilers.

awaiting insult

 

[Drivesaitl]

The implicit question of "how come we can never find a strong enough goalie to win a cup" is partially answered in your first paragraph (though I'd change "superstar #1 D" to "positional depth on D").

For the rest of the answer, zoom in on the receiving end of the bench when certain forwards decide it's easier to coast in for a change than it is to backcheck. That lack of back pressure means our D are usually forced to concede the blue line because there are no forwards coming to help (they are still waiting on the bench)

There are gonna be bumbled pucks at the offensive blue line that become breakaways, just the same as there are gonna be bad rebounds that should have been held. What kills our team is usually the lack of skating or effort to compensate for those breakdowns. It's not a lack of skill in any one position. It's that we need more of the plays we saw from Nuge last week... where a play isn't done until we say it's done.

Those goalies we had that you admire, yes Talbot was one, but so were Cujo and so many others (before we broke them)... what you admire in them isn't necessarily that they were "better" goalies than the next guy, but that they had no quit in them. When you have no quit, you surprise yourself with a spectacular save sometimes or a goal-saving stick lift, or, or... and it shouldn't be a positional thing, there is no excuse for anyone to have any quit in their game at any position.

And we have a few guys who occasionally have some quit in them and maybe don't realize it... and it rubs off as an acceptable standard if you aren't careful.

The Oilers are topten in GAA this season and have been reasonably good at shot suppression and goal suppression and frankly taking over games. Most of our forward group, our core anyway, and some of our backsix are pretty good at pressuring back. I think even under present coaching theres been a lot of work in that area.

Still, the club has gone largely with age so pace and skating will be more of an issue. A team like Dallas has had similar problems in recent seasons but unlike us now have more youth coming up that now helps their pace.

For sure theres been times in the Mcdrai era where the club had difficulties with the bolded. But that was often in the past due to substandard depth and roster holes. That even McDrai had multiple non playoff years in a row evidence that even the greatest players couldn't drag the 2018 and 2019 team to the playoffs.

I feel theres been much better commitment this season and shows up on pk, on EV and in such things like more sticks in lanes, better work identifying open players, more defending around net. I think the players have done much better at boxing out, cleaning up rebounds.

In anycase I think a fair view on where any of our core are at in defensive and 200ft play can also involve consideration that these players have NEVER had the benefit of an Elite D here or an Elite shutdown D. Having that can make a huge difference of course for teams and players. So that our forward group has always been exposed to more GA storms that players on teams with Elite D were sheltered from.

When you have a Chara, a Hedman, Doughty, Makar, good habits are easier to come by and much more reinforced.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Maybe that would help "you" and not the Oilers.

awaiting insult

Campbell is washed. It's time to move on.

 

[GOilers88]

Maybe that would help "you" and not the Oilers.

awaiting insult

No, having a 5 million dollar goalie that's in the AHL because he can't keep his head above water for any extended period of time in the NHL come off the books certainly helps the Oilers.

Keep pretending like I'm out to get you or something though.

 

[OilerTyler]

Campbell is washed. It's time to move on.

Anyone advocating for Campbell to be on this team at this point is just trolling.

The Oilers don't have a goalie controversy.

 

[Broberg Speed]

Anyone advocating for Campbell to be on this team at this point is just trolling.

The Oilers don't have a goalie controversy.

Not true. I believe Campbell is the best goaltender in the system and he has been horribly mishandled by the Oilers since day one.

In the future Campbell will prove his worth if it's for the Edmonton Oilers or another club. Maybe he'll win a Stanley Cup with the Oilers, maybe with another club.

 

[GOilers88]

How on earth was Jack Campbell mishandled by the organization last year?

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

How on earth was Jack Campbell mishandled by the organization last year?

They played him against NHL teams.

 

[Mr Kot]

awaiting insult

you r a doo doo head

 

[PSfan]

How on earth was Jack Campbell mishandled by the organization last year?

You have reasonable explanation to why after going 9-0-3 in twelve straight starts (while superstar Skinner managed a 1-2-3 in that span) Jack only plays in 6 of the final 25 games?

 

[OilerTyler]

You have reasonable explanation to why after going 9-0-3 in twelve straight starts (while superstar Skinner managed a 1-2-3 in that span) Jack only plays in 6 of the final 25 games?

The explanation is that Skinner was wildly outperforming Campbell. Campbell got more starts over that stretch because he was playing well (Skinner did have a better save percentage during this stretch still though). Then when Skinner started outperforming Campbell they went the other way. Is Campbell supposed to get special treatment?

No one here is calling Skinner a superstar but compared to Campbell he definitely is.

 

[GOilers88]

You have reasonable explanation to why after going 9-0-3 in twelve straight starts (while superstar Skinner managed a 1-2-3 in that span) Jack only plays in 6 of the final 25 games?

Again, this has nothing to do with Campbell being mishandled from the get go. He f***ing tanked hard on his own and the team had to rely on Skinner to get them through the season.

 

[Fourier]

The implicit question of "how come we can never find a strong enough goalie to win a cup" is partially answered in your first paragraph (though I'd change "superstar #1 D" to "positional depth on D").

For the rest of the answer, zoom in on the receiving end of the bench when certain forwards decide it's easier to coast in for a change than it is to backcheck. That lack of back pressure means our D are usually forced to concede the blue line because there are no forwards coming to help (they are still waiting on the bench)

There are gonna be bumbled pucks at the offensive blue line that become breakaways, just the same as there are gonna be bad rebounds that should have been held. What kills our team is usually the lack of skating or effort to compensate for those breakdowns. It's not a lack of skill in any one position. It's that we need more of the plays we saw from Nuge last week... where a play isn't done until we say it's done.

Those goalies we had that you admire, yes Talbot was one, but so were Cujo and so many others (before we broke them)... what you admire in them isn't necessarily that they were "better" goalies than the next guy, but that they had no quit in them. When you have no quit, you surprise yourself with a spectacular save sometimes or a goal-saving stick lift, or, or... and it shouldn't be a positional thing, there is no excuse for anyone to have any quit in their game at any position.

And we have a few guys who occasionally have some quit in them and maybe don't realize it... and it rubs off as an acceptable standard if you aren't careful.

I've said this before in our discussions. I fully appreciate your technical knowledge of the position since I freely admit I have none when it comes to goaltending.

Your bolded paragraph really strikes home for me. With goal scorers or passers or maybe to a lesser deegree defensers, it is far more obvious when and how a player succeeds or fails. But with goalies the fact that the difference between a Vezina candidate and replacement level player is basically the outcome of 5 shots in 200 makes those surprise saves incredibly consequential. This is a point I have tried to make but have never really succeeded. For all of the variables that come into play some guys just stop more pucks consistently that others just might not.

 

[Soundwave]

The fact is Skinner should play less down the stretch.

We know more or less what we have in his game, he's the same guy as last year with somewhat worse numbers unless you isolate for stretches. The weaknesses in his game (slow movement, sometimes poor reads, poor second effort) still remain, his strengths (being strong square to the puck) as well. He's not really taken any kind of big step this season in his game. Good enough in the regular season if the team plays tight in front of him.

We don't really know what Pickard is. He had a shut out last game, the conventional logic is if a goalie gives you a shut out and it's not a back to back he should be given the next start.

Lets see what he has and start him the next 2 games, especially the Colorado game.

Even for Campbell, he should be given a few games here down the stretch to see what he looks like behind Knoblaugh's system. The fact of the matter is he is the most experienced playoff goaltender in our organization and he has by far the best playoff numbers. You can stomp your feet all you want but that isn't going to change that fact.

If Skinner goes sideways again in the playoffs, we need to have a better idea of what Pickard and Campbell can do behind this D. Pickard needs to play better teams, Campbell should be given a shot to see how he looks here too.

And before anyone starts yelling and screaming "you're a Campbell or Pickard homer!" I don't give one f*** about any of these three guys. I'd lose zero sleep if none of them were here. I'd start OJ Simpson in net if I had a rock solid guarantee of a .915 in the playoffs and staple all three of these guys to the bench. If that's what it takes, then at this point, that's what it takes.

 

[McHelpus]

Jack Campbell, the same goalie that posted a GAA of 4.49 and a SV% of .873 but stated he was playing good.

 

[bucks_oil]

The Oilers are topten in GAA this season and have been reasonably good at shot suppression and goal suppression and frankly taking over games. Most of our forward group, our core anyway, and some of our backsix are pretty good at pressuring back. I think even under present coaching theres been a lot of work in that area.

Still, the club has gone largely with age so pace and skating will be more of an issue. A team like Dallas has had similar problems in recent seasons but unlike us now have more youth coming up that now helps their pace.

For sure theres been times in the Mcdrai era where the club had difficulties with the bolded. But that was often in the past due to substandard depth and roster holes. That even McDrai had multiple non playoff years in a row evidence that even the greatest players couldn't drag the 2018 and 2019 team to the playoffs.

I feel theres been much better commitment this season and shows up on pk, on EV and in such things like more sticks in lanes, better work identifying open players, more defending around net. I think the players have done much better at boxing out, cleaning up rebounds.

In anycase I think a fair view on where any of our core are at in defensive and 200ft play can also involve consideration that these players have NEVER had the benefit of an Elite D here or an Elite shutdown D. Having that can make a huge difference of course for teams and players. So that our forward group has always been exposed to more GA storms that players on teams with Elite D were sheltered from.

When you have a Chara, a Hedman, Doughty, Makar, good habits are easier to come by and much more reinforced.

I agree with most of the above and I didn't want to castigate the current team/club - rather our historical issues. Like you I think there has been a huge improvement in this regard, even going back to last year (to your point not coincidentally Ekholm's arrival).

I'm also ok getting a little "slower" provided it comes with veteran savvy about how the game is ACTUALLY played and won. What's still amazing to me about this game is that as a kid (or perhaps more appropriately as a parent watching your kids where there are 30 breakaways per game) you realize just how important the really basic, basic fundamentals are: getting the puck out at the blue line, keeping the puck in at the blue line, skating back (all of you!) to help in layers... and then kids learn more exciting things like raising the puck, slappers, dangles, cellys' and forget about so much of the rest until they are in their late twenties, wondering why they haven't won the big prize...

I think we are learning (re-learning) those things, but man-o-man, that first 12 games of the season was a horror-show of poor team play.

And to your point, it's a real shame that Campbell took the blame for that. Unfortunately there is no option to bring him up at this moment. We have $226K of projected cap space left at the end of the year. Campbell costs us $29,762 per day that he's on the roster... that means we could spend a bit of our money at the end of the year to get him 2-3 games in, but we can't do much more than that.

 

[Soundwave]

Jack Campbell, the same goalie that posted a GAA of 4.49 and a SV% of .873 but stated he was playing good.

Pretty sure that is goaltending genius Dustin Schwartz telling them to say that, Skinner said the same crap when his numbers were shit.

I agree with most of the above and I didn't want to castigate the current team/club - rather our historical issues. Like you I think there has been a huge improvement in this regard, even going back to last year (to your point not coincidentally Ekholm's arrival).

I'm also ok getting a little "slower" provided it comes with veteran savvy about how the game is ACTUALLY played and won. What's still amazing to me about this game is that as a kid (or perhaps more appropriately as a parent watching your kids where there are 30 breakaways per game) you realize just how important the really basic, basic fundamentals are: getting the puck out at the blue line, keeping the puck in at the blue line, skating back (all of you!) to help in layers... and then kids learn more exciting things like raising the puck, slappers, dangles, cellys' and forget about so much of the rest until they are in their late twenties, wondering why they haven't won the big prize...

I think we are learning (re-learning) those things, but man-o-man, that first 12 games of the season was a horror-show of poor team play.

And to your point, it's a real shame that Campbell took the blame for that. Unfortunately there is no option to bring him up at this moment. We have $226K of projected cap space left at the end of the year. Campbell costs us $29,762 per day that he's on the roster... that means we could spend a bit of our money at the end of the year to get him 2-3 games in, but we can't do much more than that.

Probably gonna have to do it, 2-3 games is better than none. We may have to play him in the playoffs. I'd like to see him in that Vegas game we have down the stretch.

 

[guymez]

Not true. I believe Campbell is the best goaltender in the system and he has been horribly mishandled by the Oilers since day one.

In the future Campbell will prove his worth if it's for the Edmonton Oilers or another club. Maybe he'll win a Stanley Cup with the Oilers, maybe with another club.

Just because you beleive something that doesn't make it a fact.

Support your claim with some data. Provide some evidence.

 

[GOilers88]

The fact is Skinner should play less down the stretch.

We know more or less what we have in his game, he's the same guy as last year with somewhat worse numbers unless you isolate for stretches. The weaknesses in his game (slow movement, sometimes poor reads, poor second effort) still remain, his strengths (being strong square to the puck) as well. He's not really taken any kind of big step this season in his game. Good enough in the regular season if the team plays tight in front of him.

We don't really know what Pickard is. He had a shut out last game, the conventional logic is if a goalie gives you a shut out and it's not a back to back he should be given the next start.

Lets see what he has and start him the next 2 games, especially the Colorado game.

Even for Campbell, he should be given a few games here down the stretch to see what he looks like behind Knoblaugh's system. The fact of the matter is he is the most experienced playoff goaltender in our organization and he has by far the best playoff numbers. You can stomp your feet all you want but that isn't going to change that fact.

If Skinner goes sideways again in the playoffs, we need to have a better idea of what Pickard and Campbell can do behind this D. Pickard needs to play better teams, Campbell should be given a shot to see how he looks here too.

And before anyone starts yelling and screaming "you're a Campbell or Pickard homer!" I don't give one f*** about any of these three guys. I'd lose zero sleep if none of them were here. I'd start OJ Simpson in net if I had a rock solid guarantee of a .915 in the playoffs and staple all three of these guys to the bench. If that's what it takes, then at this point, that's what it takes.

Everyone knows what Pickard is. He's a 31 year old career fringe goalie who is having a decent go as a backup this year.

 

[Soundwave]

Everyone knows what Pickard is. He's a 31 year old career fringe goalie who is having a decent go as a backup this year.

All three of our guys might be back ups realistically.

We need to know where we stand with the other two and if they can be trusted in Knoblaugh's system against better teams.

We know what Skinner is, he's not really showing any kind of big improvement from last year.

It also would be good to know how much of our wins are coming from our systems play and how interchangeable the goalies then are.

 

[bucks_oil]

Jack Campbell, the same goalie that posted a GAA of 4.49 and a SV% of .873 but stated he was playing good.

Well that's just the point isn't it.

You play 6 games behind a tire fire of a TEAM defense. You make most of the saves you are expected to... it's super easy to end up with an 0.873 on a stretch like that.

Heck prime Hasek batted an 0.863 during a 5 game playoffs in the SAME year that he won his 2nd Vezina. It happens when your team is overmatched.

Woodcroft got fired for how the team was playing - it was his responsibility to get the team to play a certain way.

Both of our goalies were playing terrible in that stretch, and one guy got sent down because: a) we needed to try something ANYTHING and b) his larger contract and age made him zero-risk for waiver claim.

I'm with those suggesting we better make sure we have one or both of Campbell and Pickard sharp and ready to go for the playoffs AND use them if Skinner needs a night off.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

nvm

 

[GOilers88]

All three of our guys might be back ups realistically.

We need to know where we stand with the other two and if they can be trusted in Knoblaugh's system against better teams.

We know what Skinner is, he's not really showing any kind of big improvement from last year.

It also would be good to know how much of our wins are coming from our systems play and how interchangeable the goalies then are.

I don't know how you can not acknowledge Skinner has played himself into a 1B starter at the absolute minimum.

The only real issue is they overplay the shit out of him.

It's strange to see you argue we know what Skinner is, and will be, because of one season. But we need to find out what we have in Pickard and Campbell, who are 31 and 32 respectively, have been in and around the league for years, and been unable to carve out any real stable job in the league.

 

[Stoneman89]

Skinner in no way "has to carry a heavy load" Pickard is more than adequate and could be getting more games. Its no excuse at all for Skinner to be seeing this many starts, and its a bad idea, but its something Skinner himself wants.

The 58-27 record is a team attribute. Many of those games the Oilers manage to outscore the flaws in goal. Its not like he's a game stealer, and rarely is. He's an average goalie as you say, The Oilers an elite club making do with average netminding, which just happens to be one of the most important spots in hockey. If not the most critical.

In anycase the only reason Skinner is a "starter" and Pickard a backup, or Campbell in AHL is the team went that way. even though both goalies had better stats here, regularly, than Skinner. it fell to Skinner, and remained with him. The concern that could be expressed is it hasn't been about who is the best option, its who was more ingrained with the coaching staff, and that of course was Skinner, due to Woodys connection with him, and in the AHL.

Had KK been the coach here the whole time or started the season here its even likely he would've gone Campbells direction and good possibility Campbell would have found his game. But KK is in the non ideal position of starting during season and so a lot of coaches in that position will just go with what the org is saying to run with. Never a surprise who Schwartz is saying to go with. Not that its crystal clear that it should be the case.

If you want further on Skinners record being more of a team artifact than look at Campbell last year being 21-9. Or Pickard this year being 9-4. These are very similar to Skinner records. they are the artifact of being a goalie on a good team. Some easy pickup like Korpisalo (just an example) could come in here and have a very good win percentage. just on the basis of the quality of the club.

Just to go one step further on that Campbells last two years in Toronto were 48-12. Can one REALLY go on those numbers. I'm not, ftr. But you shouldn't be either.

And there you go again. What Stuart wants, Stuart gets. Again, if a player doesn't WANT to get in their and play, I don't want him on my team. But it's the coach and organization that determines the amount he plays, not up to the player.

 

[Broberg Speed]

The fact is Skinner should play less down the stretch.

We know more or less what we have in his game, he's the same guy as last year with somewhat worse numbers unless you isolate for stretches. The weaknesses in his game (slow movement, sometimes poor reads, poor second effort) still remain, his strengths (being strong square to the puck) as well. He's not really taken any kind of big step this season in his game. Good enough in the regular season if the team plays tight in front of him.

We don't really know what Pickard is. He had a shut out last game, the conventional logic is if a goalie gives you a shut out and it's not a back to back he should be given the next start.

Lets see what he has and start him the next 2 games, especially the Colorado game.

Even for Campbell, he should be given a few games here down the stretch to see what he looks like behind Knoblaugh's system. The fact of the matter is he is the most experienced playoff goaltender in our organization and he has by far the best playoff numbers. You can stomp your feet all you want but that isn't going to change that fact.

If Skinner goes sideways again in the playoffs, we need to have a better idea of what Pickard and Campbell can do behind this D. Pickard needs to play better teams, Campbell should be given a shot to see how he looks here too.

And before anyone starts yelling and screaming "you're a Campbell or Pickard homer!" I don't give one f*** about any of these three guys. I'd lose zero sleep if none of them were here. I'd start OJ Simpson in net if I had a rock solid guarantee of a .915 in the playoffs and staple all three of these guys to the bench. If that's what it takes, then at this point, that's what it takes.

Knoblauch said Skinner gets the start tomorrow.