Injury Report: Official Injury Thread

[RedWingsNow*]

and while he hasn't done that thus far this year,he did just that 5 seasons in a row

for all the whining about Franzen over the years he's been amazingly consistant about his goal scoring paces

Franzen, when he signed his contract, was in the midst of a season where he scored 34 goals in 71 games...

Basically, a 40-goal pace. It came on the heels of a 13 goal in 16 games playoffs.

So, this idea that Franzen is only paid to score 30 goals is revisionist history, in my eyes.

Take a look at these numbers:
From March 2 2008 to April 11 2009...
When Franzen got red hot, playing for Holmstrom, to the day he signed his contract...

15 goals in 16 games to end the 08 regular season
13 goals in 16 playoff games in 08
34 goals in 69 regular season games in 09

62 goals in 91 games.

He was scoring at a 56 goal pace when he signed with Detroit.

Since then he has 74 regular season goals in 208 games
And 21 playoff goals in 48 games
So 95 goals in 256 games
That's a 32 goal pace.


We signed Franzen when he was scoring at a 56 goal pace
He produces at a 32 goal pace.

So, I don't think it's fair to say that the Franzen we got is the Franzen we wanted when we signed him.

I don't think anyone expected Franzen to keep up his 56 goal place--But 35 to 40, I think, is about what was expected.

I also think fans expected Franzen to play with guts. What happened to the Franzen who would get the puck and go to the net and fire an eyepopping wrister?

Where the hell did he go?

 

[joe89]

Catch 22, need Z to make the playoffs but also need him 110% healthy if they make the playoffs. I'd sit him.

 

[Winger98]

I'm not seeing a huge difference between expecting him to score 35 goals and actually producing at 32. I don't recall a lot of expectations being voiced for a consistent 40 goal scorer, either.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I'm not seeing a huge difference between expecting him to score 35 goals and actually producing at 32. I don't recall a lot of expectations being voiced for a consistent 40 goal scorer, either.

Look, I can't make it much more plain.

If you don't want to see the numbers, fine.

But if you think the Wings signed Franzen to be a disengaged, 27 goal guy, I can't help you.

He was on a season-long hot streak.

I questioned the wisdom of putting much stock in a 13-month hot streak.
He had 38 goals in 239 games
(13 goal pace)

He got super hot when Holmstrom was injured, and then went bonzai after banging his head in the playoffs.
And carried his strong play into the next season... scoring a 40-goal pace in the regular season ... and a 56-goal pace over the 91-game stretch prior to his contract.

To me, that 56-goal pace is the ONLY excuse Holland has for Franzen's lifetime deal.

He was a 3rd/4th liner before that 91 game stretch.
Based on 91 games, he was given a LIFETIME contract that essentially ended any chance we kept Hossa.

So, if not that 56-goal pace, then what?
What possible reason would Holland have?

It's revisionist history to suggest that the Red Wings expected a 72-game, 27 goal goal scorer.

You don't give 12 year contracts to lazy floaters with 90 games of goal scoring on their resume

 

[8snake]

Winger, when you watch Franzen play do you see a player engaged and active during his shifts? Do you see a level of effectiveness coming even close to what Franzen was 3-4 years ago? Are you content wit him looking old and disinterested most every night? How hard is Franzen skating night in night out? I rarely see him take a hard stride oduring a shift. You have been a Franzen sapologist for way too long.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Johan Franzen is a prime candidate for a compliance buyout.

The guy they signed and the guy currently playing are two completely different players.

 

[Hendricks433]

Johan Franzen is a prime candidate for a compliance buyout.

The guy they signed and the guy currently playing are two completely different players.

He is the perfect candidate but they wont do it unfortunately.

 

[Flowah]

One need only watch the 2008 and 2009 playoffs to see what Franzen can do.

One need only watch the past 2-3 seasons to see what he isn't doing anymore.

That's the difference. Honestly, the production is a bit low, but not too out of line with his contract. He makes smart passes most of the time. He's got decent positioning.

But when you know a player's potential and he's clearly not hitting it, that is just as frustrating as a player not earning his contract.

 

[Winger98]

Look, I can't make it much more plain.

If you don't want to see the numbers, fine.

But if you think the Wings signed Franzen to be a disengaged, 27 goal guy, I can't help you.

He was on a season-long hot streak.

I questioned the wisdom of putting much stock in a 13-month hot streak.
He had 38 goals in 239 games
(13 goal pace)

He got super hot when Holmstrom was injured, and then went bonzai after banging his head in the playoffs.
And carried his strong play into the next season... scoring a 40-goal pace in the regular season ... and a 56-goal pace over the 91-game stretch prior to his contract.

To me, that 56-goal pace is the ONLY excuse Holland has for Franzen's lifetime deal.

He was a 3rd/4th liner before that 91 game stretch.
Based on 91 games, he was given a LIFETIME contract that essentially ended any chance we kept Hossa.

So, if not that 56-goal pace, then what?
What possible reason would Holland have?

It's revisionist history to suggest that the Red Wings expected a 72-game, 27 goal goal scorer.

You don't give 12 year contracts to lazy floaters with 90 games of goal scoring on their resume

You said this:

I don't think anyone expected Franzen to keep up his 56 goal place--But 35 to 40, I think, is about what was expected.​

You crunched your own numbers and also said this:

He produces at a 32 goal pace.​

So, not only does he not produce far from what you say people expected of him, but you also say that no one expected the 56 goal thing to be his norm. But then you want it to be the only reason he was signed to the contract he was given.

Yeah, crystal clear.

Winger, when you watch Franzen play do you see a player engaged and active during his shifts? Do you see a level of effectiveness coming even close to what Franzen was 3-4 years ago? Are you content wit him looking old and disinterested most every night? How hard is Franzen skating night in night out? I rarely see him take a hard stride oduring a shift. You have been a Franzen sapologist for way too long.

I'm content with him going out and putting up around 30 goals every year, and I don't think that ability gets the appreciation it should because he looks lazy, or he doesn't maintain a goal scoring pace that was ridiculous to begin with. Last year, he was the 34th leading goal scorer in the league (actually tied for 14th if you go by goals scored and lump everyone together who had matching totals). Out of...700 players? And his cap hit is less than $4m. And that's a problem?

On the list of things wrong with the wings, that guy is not in the top 10.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

You said this:

I don't think anyone expected Franzen to keep up his 56 goal place--But 35 to 40, I think, is about what was expected.​

You crunched your own numbers and also said this:

He produces at a 32 goal pace.​

So, not only does he not produce far from what you say people expected of him, but you also say that no one expected the 56 goal thing to be his norm. But then you want it to be the only reason he was signed to the contract he was given.

Yeah, crystal clear.

Nice sarcasm.

32G is closer to the 35G rate, but a far cry from the 40G rate.

And even further from the 56G rate.



The OVERALL POINT that you ignore because it's inconvenient to your poorly thought out argument is that Franzen was signed to be a STUD.

Not to be a lazy floater who scores 27 goals a season.

If Franzen had scored at a 32 goal rate in the 91 games prior to his contract, Hossa would be a Red Wing and Franzen might have signed a 3-year, 9M contract (if Holland could figure out how to trade Cleary)

 

[Winger98]

Nice sarcasm.

32G is closer to the 35G rate, but a far cry from the 40G rate.

And even further from the 56G rate.


The OVERALL POINT that you ignore because it's inconvenient to your poorly thought out argument is that Franzen was signed to be a STUD.

Not to be a lazy floater who scores 27 goals a season.

If Franzen had scored at a 32 goal rate in the 91 games prior to his contract, Hossa would be a Red Wing and Franzen might have signed a 3-year, 9M contract (if Holland could figure out how to trade Cleary)

Was he? Even when those contracts were being handed out like candy, the stud playerswere getting cap hits closer to $6m and better. Hossa's offered deal was over $5m, right?

If Franzen was really being looked at as a "stud," his cap hit would have been higher. Likely closer to Hossa's rumored offer.

If you want to argue that we should have went with Hossa regardless, go for it. I think there's a better argument from that angle, anyway.

 

[Bench]

If you want to argue that we should have went with Hossa regardless, go for it.

Hold on, I need to find my shot glass.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Was he? Even when those contracts were being handed out like candy, the stud playerswere getting cap hits closer to $6m and better. Hossa's offered deal was over $5m, right?

If Franzen was really being looked at as a "stud," his cap hit would have been higher. Likely closer to Hossa's rumored offer.

If you want to argue that we should have went with Hossa regardless, go for it. I think there's a better argument from that angle, anyway.

Dude, Franzen had 91 games of awesomeness under his belt. And he parlayed that into $43Million.

For a 91-game stretch, he earned a $43M contract.
Prior to that he was a big-bodied defensive forward with a decent wristshot.
They paid him to be a stud.

If they thought he was going to be Michael Ryder, they would have paid him 2 years at a time. Not given him $43M guaranteed

 

[HIFE]

,,,The OVERALL POINT that you ignore because it's inconvenient to your poorly thought out argument is that Franzen was signed to be a STUD....

This has been beat around for years, but that is a great way to sum it up.

Fact remains you know the DRW will not buy out Franzen, that isn't how the organization works. We are stuck with him (for a time).

It's been 7 years since Franzen and team Sweden won olympic gold. A lot has changed since then. Yes he was contracted to be a stud and has nearly been that. Not extremely elite like we hoped but a solid contributor nonetheless. It's tough because every Wings fan has to grapple with the enigma that is Franzen. Some days you hate him but mostly love him especially when we win.

It's obvious Johan won't lead us to a championship, but he could be a great support to a team that is well balanced with him.

One problem is he is such a kind guy! Watch him in practice he's like a big overgrown boy. He loves playing around dangling, goofing off. He couldn't hurt a fly, he's too classy. If he was hired to be a "stud" that was the wrong characterization from the get-go.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Dude, Franzen had 91 games of awesomeness under his belt. And he parlayed that into $43Million.

For a 91-game stretch, he earned a $43M contract.
Prior to that he was a big-bodied defensive forward with a decent wristshot.
They paid him to be a stud.

If they thought he was going to be Michael Ryder, they would have paid him 2 years at a time. Not given him $43M guaranteed

Sorry but even at 43 million he wasn't paid like a stud. He was paid like a top 6 30 goal scorer by cap hit really paid below that, which is exactly what he is. I wish he could play the Avs every night.

 

[Winger98]

Dude, Franzen had 91 games of awesomeness under his belt. And he parlayed that into $43Million.

For a 91-game stretch, he earned a $43M contract.
Prior to that he was a big-bodied defensive forward with a decent wristshot.
They paid him to be a stud.

If they thought he was going to be Michael Ryder, they would have paid him 2 years at a time. Not given him $43M guaranteed

Except you admit that no one likely believed he would continue playing at that pace.

I think the term was more from an attempt to wiggle cap space to keep more players - a plan that ultimately didn't pan out with Sammy going to Vancouver and Hudler skipping off to Russia; and neither Franzen nor Hossa doing us any favors and taking a bit below market value for those first few years.

You're not convincing me that the Wings going out of their way to lower his cap hit meant they expected him to pop in 40 goals and be the next Shanny. And I don't believe anyone else had those expectations (at least realistically) either.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Chuck Pleiness ‏@wingsfrontman 7 min
@Vllnt29 Helm out here skating on his own before practice. Bertuzzi has been skating with team.


edit. Helene St. James ‏@HeleneStJames 40 s
Henrik Zetterberg (groin) not skating as practice begins, #RedWings

more.

Ansar Khan ‏@AnsarKhanMLive 11 s
Brunner not skating. Holland said he's day to day with undisclosed injury but expected to play this weekend.

Helene St. James ‏@HeleneStJames 13 s
Only #RedWings player I don't see is Darren Helm.

Helene St. James ‏@HeleneStJames 45 s
Zetterberg joins practice. Todd Bertuzzi also continues to skate. #RedWings

 

[RedWingsNow*]

You're not convincing me that the Wings going out of their way to lower his cap hit meant they expected him to pop in 40 goals and be the next Shanny. And I don't believe anyone else had those expectations (at least realistically) either.

Look, if you want to ignore the facts, go ahead.

He scored 62 goals in the 91 games over 13 months before he was signed.

The Wings gave him 12 year deal.

They chose him over 40 goal scorer Marian Hossa.

So pretend the Wings didn't expect 40 goals from Franzen if you want.

I don't care what you want to believe. The proof is in the numbers and the Red Wings action.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Ansar Khan ‏@AnsarKhanMLive 33 s
Zetterberg says he's optimistic he'll play tomorrow.

Look, if you want to ignore the facts, go ahead.

He scored 62 goals in the 91 games over 13 months before he was signed.

The Wings gave him 12 year deal.

They chose him over 40 goal scorer Marian Hossa.

So pretend the Wings didn't expect 40 goals from Franzen if you want.

I don't care what you want to believe. The proof is in the numbers and the Red Wings action.

I don't think Wings expected him to maintain that pace. No one did pretty much. Or at least shouldn't have.

Goal scoring goes down as you age. I think they expected more though.

He was basically signed to 7x5.2 mil. contract or so, then added the remaining 4 years to bring it to eleven years. That's not 40 goal scorer UFA money imo and wasn't back then.

Franzen would have gotten that as UFA, maybe more. So they pretty much
had to do it. Not bc they expected him to score 40 as he had never done it over regular season.

30-35 goals and playoff beast. The Franzen that doesn't give up on play and drives the net. Yeah, we don't have him as now.

Not saying it was good deal or they made the right decision by letting Hossa walk etc. but this is how I see it.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

I think Burmistrov will be a Wing. He's the kind of deal Holland will be looking for.

 

[jaster]

Look, if you want to ignore the facts, go ahead.

He scored 62 goals in the 91 games over 13 months before he was signed.

The Wings gave him 12 year deal.

They chose him over 40 goal scorer Marian Hossa.

So pretend the Wings didn't expect 40 goals from Franzen if you want.

I don't care what you want to believe. The proof is in the numbers and the Red Wings action.

No one is ignoring facts. Some people just aren't buying the conclusion that you have drawn from them. Probably because, to make your argument, you had to insert a number of assumptions.

Anyway, I thought Franzen got his deal to a big-bodied winger who pots ~30 goals a year. And he's pretty much been that. I'm surprised to hear that anyone thought the expectation was to be a 40-goal scorer, or believed that other people (the Wings) were expecting 40 goals. He's certainly not being paid like a 40-goal scorer, no matter how you dissect his contract, so that doesn't seem to make sense.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

LOL.

I guess you guys forget all the talk about Franzen the beast and Franzenstein, and Franzen being as valuable as Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

My, how 3 years of uninspired play changes people's memory

After three years of starting at that vivid red color fade in the sun, it seems like it was always sort of greyish, doesn't it


So based on 13 months, the Wings paid Franzen an 11 year contract to be a 30 goal scorer. About what he's doing now?

Not a chance.

 

[Fugu]

Look, if you want to ignore the facts, go ahead.

He scored 62 goals in the 91 games over 13 months before he was signed.

The Wings gave him 12 year deal.

They chose him over 40 goal scorer Marian Hossa.

So pretend the Wings didn't expect 40 goals from Franzen if you want.

I don't care what you want to believe. The proof is in the numbers and the Red Wings action.

I think Holland wanted to keep Flip and Hudler, which is why he passed on Hossa. I guess you could say it was a choice of:

Franzen + Hossa - 65-70 goals

Hossa + Flip, maybe Hudler - 80-90 goals

or Franzen, Flip and Hudler - 80 goals


Keeping Hossa would have meant dumping 1-2 home-developed guys. I personally think that shouldn't have had much to do with it given Hossa's superior offensive skills + two-way play, but it is what it is.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Ansar Khan ‏@AnsarKhanMLive 33 s
Zetterberg says he's optimistic he'll play tomorrow.



I don't think Wings expected him to maintain that pace. No one did pretty much. Or at least shouldn't have.

Goal scoring goes down as you age. I think they expected more though.

He was basically signed to 7x5.2 mil. contract or so, then added the remaining 4 years to bring it to eleven years. That's not 40 goal scorer UFA money imo and wasn't back then.

Franzen would have gotten that as UFA, maybe more. So they pretty much
had to do it. Not bc they expected him to score 40 as he had never done it over regular season.

30-35 goals and playoff beast. The Franzen that doesn't give up on play and drives the net. Yeah, we don't have him as now.

Not saying it was good deal or they made the right decision by letting Hossa walk etc. but this is how I see it.

The Wings knew they could pay Franzen $5M for 5 years a year or $4M a year for 11 years.

Franzen was red hot for 13 months. But not everyone was convinced he was the beast he appeared to be. He didn't have a long track record to get the kind of deal like Hossa, for example.

So the Wings gambled, picking Franzen over Hossa.

Did they expect a 56-goal pace he'd been on for 13 months? No.

But I think they thought they were getting a deal on a goal scoring machine.

Franzen, on a couple of occasions since, has been a "goal scoring marchine."

He's had a couple really hot starts. but he's also had stretches where he was invisible for months at a time.

I don't think ANYONE envisioned the Franzen we see today,

But that's what happens when you sign a guy with no track track record to an 11-year deal

 

[InjuredChoker]

LOL.

I guess you guys forget all the talk about Franzen the beast and Franzenstein, and Franzen being as valuable as Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

My, how 3 years of uninspired play changes people's memory

After three years of starting at that vivid red color fade in the sun, it seems like it was always sort of greyish, doesn't it


So based on 13 months, the Wings paid Franzen an 11 year contract to be a 30 goal scorer. About what he's doing now?

Not a chance.

It wasn't 11 year contract in previous CBA. 7 or 8 based on how the money divides.

I think they would be ok with Franzen scoring 30 and playing like he did back then.

I'm ok (not sure about Wings management) with it if he scores those 30+ goals and plays like now at the cap hit is only under 4 (if he would be The Mule at playoffs). Well not ok but can tolerate it. Somehow. But the thing is.. how about in 5 years when his show and legs slow down? That's the issue.