Line Combos: Odd men out for Thursday?

[silkyjohnson50]

I don't think it is a coincidence. Gus is a good player. You have presented a fine example of Holland's asset management. Hoard as many NHL players as possible. When you need to bring up a kid, bring him up. If he earns his keep, keep him. If he is waiver eligible and you need the space to hoard another NHL player you send him down. Even if you keep a marginally better player in the minors it allows you to keep 2 players instead of one. If you are having a rough patch you call up a Nyquist to give you a boost.

How can you believe in such a philosophy. Detroit was a team that made the postseason on the final day of the season the prior year. Why in the world would you weaken your big club just to keep "2 players" when one of those 2 players are players like Cleary, Samuelsson, Emmerton, etc?

How in the world could anybody advocate keeping a player like Nyquist down?

 

[Frk It]

So I think after this pre-season and last, we can decisively say that the notion that "the best players will play" coming out of camp is false.

(Just making an observation, not trying to "complain")

"These are decisions we made, but if we don't get off to the kind of start that we want and I'm not going to gauge it or judge it, but there are certainly players that made a case that they're not far away," Holland said. "If we have to make decisions here whether through health or through play we'll make those. I'm looking at it as an 82-game schedule plus playoffs. We're going to need lots of players. We're going to need more than 23 players than we start off today. We're going to need more like 26-27 players before the year's over."

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/a-pair-of-mid-afternoon-red-wings-season-previews-and-picks

It seems like Babs uses the pre season to determine who he wants, and is not shy about voicing it. But Holland uses it to determine who will be a call-up, or take someone's joh who underperforms.

And clearly Holland wins out. Not a fan of Holland's approach, but seems like that's how things will be.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

If we learned anything last year, it should be that every point counts. They count for making the playoffs and they count for purposes of determining your playoff match up. They count the same in October as they do in April. I don't understand why any rational fan would leave anything to chance.

 

[Crymson]

I don't think it is a coincidence. Gus is a good player. You have presented a fine example of Holland's asset management. Hoard as many NHL players as possible. When you need to bring up a kid, bring him up. If he earns his keep, keep him. If he is waiver eligible and you need the space to hoard another NHL player you send him down. Even if you keep a marginally better player in the minors it allows you to keep 2 players instead of one. If you are having a rough patch you call up a Nyquist to give you a boost.

You're reaching Reed Richards levels of stretching here.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

So I think after this pre-season and last, we can decisively say that the notion that "the best players will play" coming out of camp is false.

(Just making an observation, not trying to "complain")


http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/a-pair-of-mid-afternoon-red-wings-season-previews-and-picks

It seems like Babs uses the pre season to determine who he wants, and is not shy about voicing it. But Holland uses it to determine who will be a call-up, or take someone's joh who underperforms.

And clearly Holland wins out. Not a fan of Holland's approach, but seems like that's how things will be.

the problem is holland isnt aware that the NHL awards points for every regular season game that you win and none for those you lose, and at the end of the year they add up those points and those 8 teams per conference with the most get into the playoffs(more or less)

throwing away games and thus points on purpose(choosing worse players is a purposeful act) is not a great game plan.

 

[Invictus12]

XO looks ready. Jensen had a better camp that at least Kindl and Lashoff. Backman, Marchenko, and Sproul aren't far off. If we wanted a vet around for insurance, there are still several of them waiting for jobs (Tallinder, Morris, Jovanovski, Sarich, Salo, Gill are all still listed as UFA on capgeek). All would be far cheaper than Quincey, for likely just one year, and would give us greater roster/cap flexibility because of the smallness of their deals.

And who knows what the Wings could use the cap space for. Right now it could be used to re-sign Alfie at some point and not having to push any bonuses to next season. It could give us room to take on salary from someone later in the year if another team gets unhappy with someone they signed. Or it could give us the ability to go after a guy who made a bad choice on the free agent market and is looking for a decent one year deal.

And I disagree about not trading prospects. We shouldn't be giving them away in blue light specials, but we are not going to have room for all of them and hope to remain at all competitive while working them in. Just looking at the blueline, where would we find space for XO, Jensen, Sproul, Marchenko, and Backman before their waiver exemptions are used up? By having an extra space on the blueline right now, we can move one or two of those guys up, give them a look in the NHL, and maybe improve their trade value a bit by showing they can at least hack it in the big league. And without Quincey around, we'd still have six other experienced blueliners to fill out the roster.

Okay I see where you're coming from and I stilld disagree.

First off, all those FA vets not being signed by a single team so far, could speak volumes on it's own. I don't know what their deal is, maybe they want too much money or perhaps they've fallen off the cliff. I don't know but, I do no that no one has yet to take a flyer on them. Could be varying reasons of course but, it does seem like quite a few teams are looking for upgrades on the backend and those guys are still, just sitting there.

On the issue of FA and Cap... You do realize that we'd be lucky if two of those five defensemen actually bec ome NHL regulars. You're counting your chickens before the eggs hatch. We've seen this movie over and over, not just on this team but, throughout the entire NHL. As good as Sheahan, Tatar and Nyquist looked, it will still take a couple of years to figure out if they really belong in the NHL. Jurco, Pulkkinen, Mantha, Athansiou have yet to prove anyting one way or the other as well. They all have talents, we know that. However, not everyone is cut out for what it takes to be an NHL player and I think people underestimate the amount of dedication it actually takes. Your whole life, has to be devoted to this sport to actually make it. You make it sound like they all have made it and made it big. I don't even have to go far either. Two years ago Kindl was promising, now, most folks can't wait until he's off the roster entirely. So yes, I say wait it out and see what you actually have on your hands before making premature moves. Unless someone offers something too good to be true, for which you should never hope and wait for to begin with, no I don't see a huge need for lots of salary cap. We're not going to be competing for the cup this year, not unless some miracles take place Iagain, not something you should ever put your hopes on) so why do we need cap flexibility to make a big trade?

 

[T Low]

Kinda random, but does anybody have any good pictures of zetterberg as a kid or before he was drafted? Also looking for a short highlights video of him in the nhl.

Kinda?

 

[Flowah]

I don't think it is a coincidence. Gus is a good player. You have presented a fine example of Holland's asset management. Hoard as many NHL players as possible. When you need to bring up a kid, bring him up. If he earns his keep, keep him. If he is waiver eligible and you need the space to hoard another NHL player you send him down. Even if you keep a marginally better player in the minors it allows you to keep 2 players instead of one. If you are having a rough patch you call up a Nyquist to give you a boost.

So let me get this straight.

You're saying it was better for the team to have Nyquist *not* play from the start last season? If you really think that, there's really nothing more we can say to each other. I believe the team would have been better served with Nyquist playing from the beginning, both long and short term, and that having one more marginal NHL player in the form of Sammy or Cleary or Tootoo in no way improved the team.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

Man what happened to the old Kenny Holland?

 

[DatsDeking]

Abdelkader-Zetterberg-Franzen
Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco
Nyquist-Helm-Nestrasil
Andersrson-Glendening-Miller

I LOVE the fact Jurco is with the team AND that the kid line is together. I'm really excited to see how that third line works together. I think Helm and Nyquist on the same line could be an awesome combination as well. My only change would be moving Luke to wing and letting Andy center. I like Andersson's responsible two way play as C more than Glendening, but hey. No Cleary, hopefully we see Weiss soon. I'm happy!

 

[Hammettf2b]

Abdelkader-Zetterberg-Franzen
Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco
Nyquist-Helm-Nestrasil
Andersrson-Glendening-Miller

I LOVE the fact Jurco is with the team AND that the kid line is together. I'm really excited to see how that third line works together. I think Helm and Nyquist on the same line could be an awesome combination as well. My only change would be moving Luke to wing and letting Andy center. I like Andersson's responsible two way play as C more than Glendening, but hey. No Cleary, hopefully we see Weiss soon. I'm happy!

Meh, Jurco will just get sent down when Dats comes back. Until proven otherwise, I'm just going to suspect the worst when it comes to Hollands decisions.

 

[Actual Thought*]

How can you believe in such a philosophy. Detroit was a team that made the postseason on the final day of the season the prior year. Why in the world would you weaken your big club just to keep "2 players" when one of those 2 players are players like Cleary, Samuelsson, Emmerton, etc?

How in the world could anybody advocate keeping a player like Nyquist down?

It's obvious. I have been watching the team for a very long time. The philosophy has been extremely successful and I like success. I understand that XO hasn't been banished to Siberia. When he gets a shot he needs to grab a hold.

 

[Actual Thought*]

So let me get this straight.

You're saying it was better for the team to have Nyquist *not* play from the start last season? If you really think that, there's really nothing more we can say to each other. I believe the team would have been better served with Nyquist playing from the beginning, both long and short term, and that having one more marginal NHL player in the form of Sammy or Cleary or Tootoo in no way improved the team.

I simply give Holland the respect that he has earned. You don't have to hate me for it. Nyquist seems okay. I don't think his development was destroyed. We made the playoffs. If Gus was up from game one things would have likely worked out the same. We certainly didn't get beat in the first because Gus had to play a few more AHL games.

 

[Flowah]

It's obvious. I have been watching the team for a very long time. The philosophy has been extremely successful and I like success. I understand that XO hasn't been banished to Siberia. When he gets a shot he needs to grab a hold.

Squeaking into the playoffs cannot be what defines success. Deep runs are what is success. We haven't done that in 5 years.

More than half the teams in the league make it in. If that's your measure of success, average is success.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Man what happened to the old Kenny Holland?

The salary cap.

 

[ricky0034]

It's obvious. I have been watching the team for a very long time. The philosophy has been extremely successful and I like success. I understand that XO hasn't been banished to Siberia. When he gets a shot he needs to grab a hold.

except the Wings never bring guys up when they "grab a hold" they bring them up when they feel like it

Nyquist great in the Playoffs two years ago and in the preseason last year? too bad back to Grand Rapids for you gotta have cap space for Dan Cleary and it's a numbers game you see

Ouellet better than Kindl and Lashoff in the preseason? sorry bud but we can't risk another team grabbing Kindl or Lashoff on waivers

I simply give Holland the respect that he has earned. You don't have to hate me for it. Nyquist seems okay. I don't think his development was destroyed. We made the playoffs. If Gus was up from game one things would have likely worked out the same. We certainly didn't get beat in the first because Gus had to play a few more AHL games.

we got beat in the first round because we had to play Boston

if we had gotten even 1 more point we would have avoided them in the first round

 

[opivy]

I simply give Holland the respect that he has earned. You don't have to hate me for it. Nyquist seems okay. I don't think his development was destroyed. We made the playoffs. If Gus was up from game one things would have likely worked out the same. We certainly didn't get beat in the first because Gus had to play a few more AHL games.

^ This ^

I understand this is a prospect board, but why is the focus on all these theoretical mistakes that Holland the idiot does. He got us to the playoffs last year, fielded the young team that many wanted to see, we lost in the first round.

I am salivating to see how much Tats, Nyquist and Jurco have moved forward, I think with the "overripe" wysiwyg but I still hope for some NHL15 type stat growth

 

[Actual Thought*]

Squeaking into the playoffs cannot be what defines success. Deep runs are what is success. We haven't done that in 5 years.

More than half the teams in the league make it in. If that's your measure of success, average is success.

That is the same old round and round we go argument that has permeated this forum for the entire off season. You ignore that Pav and Z were injured for half the year and claim that Holland's failure to bring up Gus to start the season was somehow epic in its' effect. You claim we are a perpetual bubble team. I say yeah but Dats and Z were hurt....blah. blah...

Holland has turned over 50% of the roster in the last couple of years. Kids are coming up left and right. This is rebuilding on the fly and it is working. You can't win the cup every year but we will compete for it again soon. I expect people to be talking about them as a contender by the half way point of the season.

 

[Outl4w]

It just seems we get the same old speech every end of season and offseason. We need to upgrade our defense and let the kids earn their spots. Jurco was a huge part of the playoff push at the end. Cleary was not apart of it, yet he will get to play over Jurco I assume. We start the season with the exact same defense, and the exact same mediocre players who have no upside with the DRW in Kindl, Lashoff, and Quincey. Kindl, Cleary, and Lashoff should be gone to provide guys who have upside and are ready to play now and fight for their spot

 

[Actual Thought*]

except the Wings never bring guys up when they "grab a hold" they bring them up when they feel like it

Nyquist great in the Playoffs two years ago and in the preseason last year? too bad back to Grand Rapids for you gotta have cap space for Dan Cleary and it's a numbers game you see

Ouellet better than Kindl and Lashoff in the preseason? sorry bud but we can't risk another team grabbing Kindl or Lashoff on waivers



we got beat in the first round because we had to play Boston

if we had gotten even 1 more point we would have avoided them in the first round

We got beat because our stars were hurt all year and there was zero continuity on the team. The youngsters looked like youngsters will stars in their eyes as they unraveled. Boston isn't unbeatable as we saw in rd 2. We will be fine. We just need games to start.

 

[Pavels Dog]

So I think after this pre-season and last, we can decisively say that the notion that "the best players will play" coming out of camp is false.

(Just making an observation, not trying to "complain")


http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/a-pair-of-mid-afternoon-red-wings-season-previews-and-picks

It seems like Babs uses the pre season to determine who he wants, and is not shy about voicing it. But Holland uses it to determine who will be a call-up, or take someone's joh who underperforms.

And clearly Holland wins out. Not a fan of Holland's approach, but seems like that's how things will be.

It's a sensible approach whenever the prospects aren't vastly superior to roster players, as was the case with Nyquist. Then you risk losing points NOW for the hope that the "depth" will win you points later. It kind of worked out last year anyway, but it didn't look good. This year I don't think the difference between Kindl and the defensive prospects is as big as it was with Nyquist and Cleary/Sammy/Bert, so it makes more sense to not make a hasty move like waiving Kindl just for some extra games from Ouellet.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

We got beat because our stars were hurt all year and there was zero continuity on the team. The youngsters looked like youngsters will stars in their eyes as they unraveled. Boston isn't unbeatable as we saw in rd 2. We will be fine. We just need games to start.

I don't think you can keep resting on the injuries when the team hasn't made a significant run in the playoffs since 2009. Since then there has not been much improvement at any position, and our stars are getting older. That is a problem.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

We should have brought back Bertuzzi and Samuelsson and kept Jurco and Nestrasil in GR for depth.

4 players > 2 players.

 

[Flowah]

I simply give Holland the respect that he has earned. You don't have to hate me for it. Nyquist seems okay. I don't think his development was destroyed. We made the playoffs. If Gus was up from game one things would have likely worked out the same. We certainly didn't get beat in the first because Gus had to play a few more AHL games.

Can you please stop imagining things? I don't hate you and nothing in the post you quoted would indicate that I do. [mod]

As for Nyquist's development, who was talking about his development? We were talking about what was best for the team. What was best for the team is for him to have played from the start.

We could very well have been beat in the first round because of Holland's stupidity. Consider that we needed only a SINGLE extra point to move ahead of Columbus in the standings last season. Then instead of the Bruins we play the Pens. I like our odds *way* better versus the Pens. Don't you? Do you think if Nyquist had played from the start, perhap our leading goal scorer from last season might have been the difference in at least one of those 20+ games? Many of which were one goal games, some of which we lost in OT or the SO, which may not even have gone that far if we had a guy like Nyquist playing instead of Cleary who scored what, 8 points in 52 games and had crap possession numbers? Nyquist could have easily won us a measly extra point through that stretch.

 

[Frk It]

@DarrenDreger
Red Wings still searching for a quality, right shot D. May have to wait awhile for right player to become available.