So basically you believe the Wings have been successful in spite of its' management as opposed to because of it. Make sense.
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So basically you believe the Wings have been successful in spite of its' management as opposed to because of it. Make sense.
No not at all.
you're just saying nonsense here. I said, have said and will say the team was successful because of moves its mgmt team made between 1995-2003(and of course earlier wit guys like federov, lidstrom and yzerman) and believe some of thsoe moves, most noteably datsyuk and zetterberg and kronwall are why we're somewhat successful still today
what i am saying, have said and will say is this. post lockout i dont believe the mgmt made any moves during that time that would quantify a GM has being great during those years.
What is your point? Are you trying to define Holland as not great because between 05 and 09 he didn't acquire any Nick Lidstroms? What is the point of your argument?
detredWINgs
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It cracks me up when people use the alleged Tatar and Nyquist offer in defense of Holland.
First of all, when has anyone ever landed two, young, 2nd line wingers in return for a #2 defenseman with just a year left on his contract or a #3 defenseman coming off his worst career year. Hell, when has anyone returned two, young, 2nd line wingers? At no point in the past decade or more.
What's that you say? Tatar and Nyquist weren't 2nd line wingers when they were being offered? Why, yes. Look at that - you're right. What were Tatar and Nyquist when they were offered for Bouwmeester or Edler? Well, Nyquist was a 23 year old with a whopping 40 NHL games under his belt and an oh-so-impressive 13 points. Tatar was a 22 year old career AHLer with a 27-game NHL resume where he accumulated 8 whole points. Between the two of them, they had six AHL seasons worth of experience and still couldn't crack the NHL lineup. Those certainly look like great finds. Right up there with the likes of Sven Baertschi and Brandon Pirri pre-trade. You know Brandon Pirri, right? That former 2nd round draft pick who had played 35 NHL games and racked up 13 points? The one who was still playing in the AHL at the age of 22? "Oh, but he was absolutely dominating the AHL at 21 with a ppg pace." Yes. So much so that he returned a mega-valuable package of a 3rd and 5th round pick.
"Well, but surely they had more value than Baertschi and Pirri at the trade table. I mean, they came from the Red Wings organization. And Ken Holland has such a great eye for talent. He knew he was offering two solid young players who were clearly superior to the likes of Baertschi or Pirri. And this past year has only proven such." Oh, did Ken Holland know that? Did Ken Holland know that Tatar and Nyquist had the potential to be solid NHL contributors? Did he? Then why weren't they in the Red Wings lineup a year sooner? And more importantly, what on earth was he doing offering up two guys who just a year removed were our two best goal scorers if he actually knew what they were capable of?
And lets not forget what Calle Jarnkrok went for. He had so much value that he had to be packaged with a 2nd round pick and a roster player just to land a 33 year-old impending UFA from a team not even in our conference.
The take away from this is clear: Holland handcuffs himself by stashing all his "best" prospects in the AHL for eons which no GM would do if these prospects were as good as Holland claims they are. But then he plops them down at the trade table and is shocked when another GM balks at the price. He needs to wake up, look at his roster, and realize this isn't 2002 anymore. These prospects aren't being kept in the AHL so Igor Larionov can destroy other team's scrubs on the 4th line. He can no longer point to his roster and say "well, yes, they're in the AHL, but that's because my roster is so deep." Sorry, but no GM is going to jump at the chance to grab a 23 year old who's spent the past two years in the AHL because guys like Samuelsson, Cleary, Bertuzzi, Eaves, Tootoo, Emmerton, and Miller were keeping him there.
First of all, when has anyone ever landed two, young, 2nd line wingers in return for a #2 defenseman with just a year left on his contract or a #3 defenseman coming off his worst career year. Hell, when has anyone returned two, young, 2nd line wingers? At no point in the past decade or more.
What's that you say? Tatar and Nyquist weren't 2nd line wingers when they were being offered? Why, yes. Look at that - you're right. What were Tatar and Nyquist when they were offered for Bouwmeester or Edler? Well, Nyquist was a 23 year old with a whopping 40 NHL games under his belt and an oh-so-impressive 13 points. Tatar was a 22 year old career AHLer with a 27-game NHL resume where he accumulated 8 whole points. Between the two of them, they had six AHL seasons worth of experience and still couldn't crack the NHL lineup. Those certainly look like great finds. Right up there with the likes of Sven Baertschi and Brandon Pirri pre-trade. You know Brandon Pirri, right? That former 2nd round draft pick who had played 35 NHL games and racked up 13 points? The one who was still playing in the AHL at the age of 22? "Oh, but he was absolutely dominating the AHL at 21 with a ppg pace." Yes. So much so that he returned a mega-valuable package of a 3rd and 5th round pick.
"Well, but surely they had more value than Baertschi and Pirri at the trade table. I mean, they came from the Red Wings organization. And Ken Holland has such a great eye for talent. He knew he was offering two solid young players who were clearly superior to the likes of Baertschi or Pirri. And this past year has only proven such." Oh, did Ken Holland know that? Did Ken Holland know that Tatar and Nyquist had the potential to be solid NHL contributors? Did he? Then why weren't they in the Red Wings lineup a year sooner? And more importantly, what on earth was he doing offering up two guys who just a year removed were our two best goal scorers if he actually knew what they were capable of?
And lets not forget what Calle Jarnkrok went for. He had so much value that he had to be packaged with a 2nd round pick and a roster player just to land a 33 year-old impending UFA from a team not even in our conference.
The take away from this is clear: Holland handcuffs himself by stashing all his "best" prospects in the AHL for eons which no GM would do if these prospects were as good as Holland claims they are. But then he plops them down at the trade table and is shocked when another GM balks at the price. He needs to wake up, look at his roster, and realize this isn't 2002 anymore. These prospects aren't being kept in the AHL so Igor Larionov can destroy other team's scrubs on the 4th line. He can no longer point to his roster and say "well, yes, they're in the AHL, but that's because my roster is so deep." Sorry, but no GM is going to jump at the chance to grab a 23 year old who's spent the past two years in the AHL because guys like Samuelsson, Cleary, Bertuzzi, Eaves, Tootoo, Emmerton, and Miller were keeping him there.
Just so you understand the front that I'm debating you on, let me preface that I agree on the point that Quincey signing was unnecessary. What I don't agree with is that it hurts the team somehow, which is what many assertain around here.
I don't see how you connect 'competition' with giving the kids a higher probabilistic chance of making the team. What you're really proposing is to clear the road for them no matter whether we can have better options on defense or not. If they can't compete with Quincey for the spot yet, how are you favoring competition here if you're just trying to eliminate Quincey from the team completely? Once again, it's two years. As I understand it, team management feels the kids need more time. (Time will tell if they're right or wrong) If someone proves they're a better option than Quincey than I don't see why you can't have him sitting as an extra guy out there.
it was mentioned that holland was great coming out of the lockout during the years 2006-2009. I merely asked(several pages ago) what he specifically did during those years exclusively to define him as being "great."
Nowhere did i say anything about not getting nick lidstrom. I did say that great GM's do bring in great talent to bring about LONGTERM success. So if he was "great" between 2006-2009 then I would assume he brought in outstanding talent(via the draft, through trade or through free agency) during those years who have gone on to bringing LONGTERM success to the DRW.
this excludes datsyuk and zetterberg and lidstrom and even kronwall because they were drafted well before those years.
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It cracks me up when people try so hard to discredit the most successful GM in hockey during his tenure. Below is a complete list of GMs that have been more successful than Holland during his tenure.
'I would have the best team possible.' That's nice, you mind explaining how exactly? Would you have become the next Jesus Christ and brought back Datsyuk and Zetterberg from their injuries? Turned back the clock on Weiss and had him revert back to his best days in Florida? Most of people here wanted Smith off the team for half a year last year, remember? Most people here want Kindl of the team now. If Kindl will be given ice-time and suddenly plays well, you will forget that you want him off the team immidiately. You also act like Commodore and Huskins were brought in to be the go to guys for the future. They were projects that hardly cost anything and eventually didn't turn into anything. Just like most of our draft picks won't turn into anything. When you would have played Smith and Kindl earlier, who exactly would you have sat on the team? How much money do you propose Holland should have offered all the other restricted agents in order to sign them? This isn't a video game you know. You are dealing with people who have their own views and preferences. Maybe those FA are just simply turned off by the fact that Detroit city is in shambles right now. (I'm not arguing whether they're right or wrong, just giving an example of what could be in the way) How do you propose to fix that? Should Holland take them on a grand expedition to try and prove that this won't in anyway affect their lifestyles?
Quite frankly, I feel like I'm debating with people who have never gone outside, never met another person with opposing views, never tried to work out a plan and experienced the set-backs that always happen...
As far as the analysts stuff goes... Let me remind you that none of those 'experts' have any kind of pedigree in social science research, economics, business, psychology and about a million other aspects to try and predict accurately where and how the team will look in one, three and five years. I'm no expert but, I personally believe that Sheahan will turn out to be our best player in a few years. Yes, ahead of Nyquist, Mantha and whatever... Difference being, I understand that it's just an opinion and many things can affect in favor and against that going forward. You can't predict injuries, you can't predict whether someone's head will suddenly start clicking in the right direction etc... I don't expect the team to ba making a big push this year and most likely, not next year. However, I do see exacly what's being done and understand that something like this takes time.
We have a lot of young high-potential players and it will take a few years before they ecan put it together or not. We're also doing it while making playoffs every year and not trading our long-time stars and team icons for a high draft-pick etc...
Say what you want, that is damn impressive to me!
So what you're saying, that in chasing to have the best team on the ice and giving up picks when we were actually competing for the cup was bad in hindsight. Despite all that, we still managed to come out of that with lot's of good prospects and now you blame him for what? Lidstrom retiring? Zetterberg and Datsyuk suffering injuries one after another?
I think we have to clear the road a bit because of how the organization manages the roster. Right now, I'm not sure it matters how well a vet plays and how well a prospect plays in camp/pre-season. If there are waiver options available, the kid is going down. I think we saw it with Smith three yeas ago. we saw it with Nyquist last year. We saw it with XO this year. We've probably seen it with Mrazek the past two years.
So, is XO better than Quincey right now? Probably not (though I do think a kid could catch up to him by the end of the year). But would it have mattered if he was? I don't think so. Because once that spot is filled with a vet and we have the option to keep "organizational depth," we are going to err on the side of depth. Which is why signing Quincey was such a mistake to me. It locked our blueline in for two years, which doesn't sound like a lot, but that's when we also have a bunch of guys running out of waiver options.
Because of how this organization manages its roster, if we wanted a realistic shot at seeing a kid up this year, that spot had to be left open for him to fill. We're seeing it this year that we aren't even willing to waive one of Lashoff/Kindl to make room for a kid who, by all appearances, won their job in camp.
So, I think Quincey wasn't needed because he's not that great and, if given a chance, I think a kid would have been his equal by the end of the season. More importantly, because of how the Wings manage their roster, his signing shut the door on a kid winning any spot in camp. It just doesn't seem to be how the Wings roll any more.
Hope this makes sense, I'm trying to put supper together and I'm afraid this is sort of a hodge podge response.
GoAwayDanCleary
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- Aug 6, 2012
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It ain't rocket science, you play the best players regardless of age. Something Ken Holland hasn't done in years. I don't care what he did 8 years ago, Ken Holland has been an AWFUL GM for almost 5 years and its looking like it'll get worse.
I'm far from a Holland basher, but how much of the major successes of Holland's career have come in the past five years? Maybe it's a bit unfair, but it is a job that focuses on what you've done for me lately. I like how he's drafted and built up the prospect pipeline, but he's also made many questionable moves with the parent club and the guys he's signed to go out on the ice every night. If we look at more recent history, Chiarelli, Lombardi, and Bowman have done much better jobs than Holland.
I saw your post but it was removed bu mods.
I didn't think I needed to spell it out...
We DO have players that address our long-term success. What everyone on this board is actually complaining about is our current standing. Hence, Lidstrom retired, Datsyuk and Zetterberg hit with numerous injuries. When they're in the line up, our team is day and night better. Just over a year ago Detroit eliminated Anaheim and took Chicago, the eventual cup-winner to game seven. Do you guys even follow the team? I feel like you folks are just looking on the Win/Loss column on NHL website but have no idea the context surrounding what's happening.
ugh, listen man i am glad they removed my post because it wasnt necessary but that said, the discussion i was having was whether holland was "great" between the years 2006-2009.
what that means is, nothing that happened before or after those years is being discussed.
ALL thats being discussed/debated were the moves/acquistions etc he made SPECIFICALLY between those years that have resulted in long term success inorder to qualify as being "great"
nobody mentioned failing to find an exact lidstrom replacement
please stop saying such things and making things up to make your post seem more dramatic.
So you're basically saying that it doesn't matter if Quincey is the better player now. Nor does it matter whether it stays that way or not. You have a hunch that our youngster will become better and therefore Quincey should be off the team. This is what I'm getting from you. I don't necessarily disagree. However, with that, do you not see the logic of not relying on this idea from Holland? Believing that our kids need more time in AHL and have Quincey take up the spot for a couple years before we figure out whether they make it or not? I don't follow the business aspects of the game much but, if one or more of our kids play extremely well, do we have the option of putting Quincey in the press box to play one of them instead? If so, I really don't see a problem at all. (I understand that he would be quite an expensive seat-warmer if that becomes the case)
I understand what your saying. I think Holland has a different mentality that I don't think is wrong either. His mentality is more of a 'hope for the best, prepare for the worst.'
Okay I see. I thought you were implying that he did a bad job in those years because we're not a top team now... My fault.
I think you have to consider where their clubs are in that 5 years vs where the Wings are. The Wings 5 years ago were at the tail end of an era. They didn't just load up with lottery picks and climb out of the cellar. Very different situations.
IMO what Holland has tried to do is maintain some stability while rebuilding. He has managed to replace almost half the roster with kids and not miss the playoffs. I think he likes to keep vets around because they add stability, consistency, and provide an example for the kids of how to be an every day NHL player. This is his second go around at retooling on the fly and this time the holes were much bigger with the loss of Lidstrom in particular. I know it isn't popular here but I think we are a team on the rise.
Are you trying to say he is great except for those 3 years or that he isn't great and those 3 years are the evidence?
I am saying I dont think he was great during those immediate post lockout years, 2006 thru 2009(4 years)
I agree he was great from 1997-2004
I agree he has been drafting great again over the last # of years
thats it, thats all
Don't you think that as a team that obviously had a great opportunity to win the cup and him addressing the needs at the time are warrented? We lost in 07 to the Ducks specifically because they were much stronger from the backend. He addressed exactly that. He didn't need to make drastic moves, just make adjustments. Washington Capitals is a perfect example of a team that made huge chnges when they weren't needed. LA Kings is a perfect example of a team that made adjustments.
to be honest I think the kings made HUGE additions to complement their existing core, with those additions being huge long term assets
I look at quick, doughty and kopitar being like our lidstrom, datsyuk and zetterberg in our 2008 cup. now the kings also added carter, williams, stoll and richards and its those moves that i think make lombardi great over the last 5 years. For holland to be great in those years(2006-2009) he would have to make simmilar sized moves(in my opinion) for guys who dont just have short term benefits but and more important long term benefits to the success of your club. I just dont see holland making moves like that during that time period to warrant calling him "great" at that time
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