Proposal: NYR-BUF

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
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I think it's a good bet that Eichel is gonna return a teams top prospect. If a team isn't willing to give that up, they probably aren't serious about acquiring said player.

If a team has the 1OA and 2OA in the span of two years, I think the 2OA is probably going to be a good enough centerpiece. You are highly unlikely to get any better than that from any team.

This insistence to get a team's best prospect makes no sense to me. The Sabres and Rangers don't even play in the same division. Our contention timelines are very different. Get the best that you can get, not try to sell the trade from a PR perspective that you got a team's best prospect that has almost no relevance to your own team.
 

Dust

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If a team has the 1OA and 2OA in the span of two years, I think the 2OA is probably going to be a good enough centerpiece. You are highly unlikely to get any better than that from any team.

This insistence to get a team's best prospect makes no sense to me. The Sabres and Rangers don't even play in the same division. Our contention timelines are very different. Get the best that you can get, not try to sell the trade from a PR perspective that you got a team's best prospect that has almost no relevance to your own team.

Kakko and Laf haven't really shown much yet. Eichel is miles more valuable than both and plays a more valuable position. If the Rangers are serious about acquiring Eichel, some fans aren't going to be happy with what it requires. You have to give quality to get quality. Eichel easily goes 1OA in the 2018 and 2019 drafts, he just happened to be in one of the deepest drafts of all time.
 

Lindberg Cheese

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Apr 28, 2013
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I know the idea of losing your franchise C is hard and even harder because it’s a self inflicted wound for a business that can’t seem to manage itself....Jack will be moved, the return will suck, and the rest is just.......
Denial is a defense mechanism proposed by Anna Freud which involves a refusal to accept reality, thus blocking external events from awareness. If a situation is just too much to handle, the person may respond by refusing to perceive it or by denying that it exist.
 

smoneil

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Jul 14, 2004
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You really haven't made a point worth taking seriously yet. You're just spouting off, at length, about your very biased opinion.

Insult rather than substantive comment. That's a drink.

Why has Eichel never finished higher than a tie for 10th in league scoring (other career finishes in the mid-50s and his second best finish in the late 20s) if he is supposedly on the same level as McDavid, Mackinnon, and Matthews? Players of that caliber (along with Kane, Crosby, Kucherov) finish in or at least near the top ten in scoring all the time. Eichel isn't some defensive wizard or anything. Where's the production?

Why does Eichel's production rate go down in the last month or two of the season just about every year?

I've posed those two questions repeatedly in the Eichel threads. Not one Sabres fan has even tried to address it. Instead, they keep on blathering about how Eichel is a "Top 5 player in the NHL" and tossing around sarcasm and personal insults.

I would love to see even one of you try and explain those two points without resorting to excuses. It's been 5 years--those excuses ring hollow after a while. His injuries this season didn't prevent him from scoring like a top-of-the-league superstar in his previous four seasons. He's had different coaches. He's had different support players. Why has he never once cracked the top 5 in league scoring? Why only once, BARELY cracked top ten? And before you say it's because his team is bad, I see several top scoring players on bad teams.
 

smoneil

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Jul 14, 2004
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I think it's a good bet that Eichel is gonna return a teams top prospect. If a team isn't willing to give that up, they probably aren't serious about acquiring said player.

At one point, our top prospect was Thomas Pock. "Top Prospect" means nothing without context.
 
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BowieSabresFan

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Nov 18, 2010
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Insult rather than substantive comment. That's a drink.

Why has Eichel never finished higher than a tie for 10th in league scoring (other career finishes in the mid-50s and his second best finish in the late 20s) if he is supposedly on the same level as McDavid, Mackinnon, and Matthews? Players of that caliber (along with Kane, Crosby, Kucherov) finish in or at least near the top ten in scoring all the time. Eichel isn't some defensive wizard or anything. Where's the production?

Why does Eichel's production rate go down in the last month or two of the season just about every year?

I've posed those two questions repeatedly in the Eichel threads. Not one Sabres fan has even tried to address it. Instead, they keep on blathering about how Eichel is a "Top 5 player in the NHL" and tossing around sarcasm and personal insults.

I would love to see even one of you try and explain those two points without resorting to excuses. It's been 5 years--those excuses ring hollow after a while. His injuries this season didn't prevent him from scoring like a top-of-the-league superstar in his previous four seasons. He's had different coaches. He's had different support players. Why has he never once cracked the top 5 in league scoring? Why only once, BARELY cracked top ten? And before you say it's because his team is bad, I see several top scoring players on bad teams.

Ahh, the high horse routine.

You take facts out of context, and construct an argument with them. Here, I'll address them for you. The scoring rate you harp on about you take in a vacuum. First, no one in the league is as good as McDavid. He is not overly relevant because he's in a league of his own. Second, other players like Matthews have a much better supporting cast. You literally cannot ignore that fact to make a solid argument, yet you do. Most everyone looking at your arguments knows this, and knows how weak the arguments are. That's why they are not worth refuting.

And when the points come is also not overly relevant. I can just as easily pull out stats that show how good Eichel is over a whole season. Facts taken out of context while ignoring others make for a weak argument.

And look, I know you're going to try for a witty comeback. Please don't bother, because this is the only response I am going to give you. If you don't want to trade for Eichel, fine, but stop trashing Eichel with arguments like this and expect to be taken seriously.
 

smoneil

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Jul 14, 2004
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Ahh, the high horse routine.

You take facts out of context, and construct an argument with them. Here, I'll address them for you. The scoring rate you harp on about you take in a vacuum. First, no one in the league is as good as McDavid. He is not overly relevant because he's in a league of his own. Second, other players like Matthews have a much better supporting cast. You literally cannot ignore that fact to make a solid argument, yet you do. Most everyone looking at your arguments knows this, and knows how weak the arguments are. That's why they are not worth refuting.

"Supporting cast" means almost nothing. Eichel isn't playing with an ECHL team. Reinhart, Olofsson, RO'R, Kane, Skinner (aside from this year), Okposo in some years, Staal, Hall--not a murderer's row, but if Panarin can put up 90+ points in 60 some games with Ryan Strome as his center, why can't Eichel do the same with Olofsson, Kane, or Skinner on his wings? There's a difference between "not having all stars on his line" and not having any talent at all on his team. There are PLENTY of players who finish top 10 in scoring on non-playoff teams. You call it an analysis in a "vacuum" where I ignore his supporting cast. Why is that excuse not necessary for Barkov, Mackinnon, or Kane a couple seasons ago? All three finished top 10 on non playoff teams. It's not uncommon at all. But it's only seen as a valid excuse for the camouflage superstar, Jack Eichel. And again, it's not like Eichel has just missed out on top ten finishes. He hasn't even been close. In three of his five complete seasons, he's finished outside the top fifty:

15/16: Tied for 59th (with Galchenyuk and Bobby Ryan)
16/17: Tied for 53rd (with Nino Niederreiter)
17/18: Tied for 52nd (with Jason Zucker, Sean Monahan, Filip Forsberg, Yanni Gourde, and Teuvo Terravainen)
18/19: Tied for 23rd (with Monahan and Kessel)
19/20: Tied for 10th (with Huberdeau)

Eichel is still an excellent player, and I'm not trying to make him sound like crap by any means, but Buffalo fans keep scoffing at packages that include the equivalent of 4+ 1st round picks and prospects. The package Buffalo fans are expecting is a package that would make sense for a true, top 5 center (Mackinnon, McDavid, prime Crosby, Draisaitl, Marchand, Matthews, etc. That's not a value that matches his production over the last 5 years. Eichel is more in the same category as Point, Aho, Barkov, prime Kopitar kinds of players. Buffalo fans can insist that isn't the case, but a top-5 C claims that distinction by producing, and Eichel hasn't produced to those levels at any point in his career.

And when the points come is also not overly relevant. I can just as easily pull out stats that show how good Eichel is over a whole season. Facts taken out of context while ignoring others make for a weak argument.

That doesn't address the point. It's the equivalent of saying "I don't like your information, so I'm going to ignore it." Why do points down the stretch matter? Because it shows that a player has the pride to compete at the same level even if the playoffs are out of the question. You need that from a leader of a team. You need players who will go to war solely to spoil another team's playoff berth, even if it hurts their team's draft position. A player that seems to have a record of checking out early because the games don't matter? Huge red flag. And to be fair, that's just my interpretation of those numbers. I'd be curious to hear anyone else's different interpretation. Do his minutes go down down the stretch? It the team playing prospects more to see what they have? There are a couple of other possibilities, but having it happen year in and year out is not a good look.

And look, I know you're going to try for a witty comeback. Please don't bother, because this is the only response I am going to give you. If you don't want to trade for Eichel, fine, but stop trashing Eichel with arguments like this and expect to be taken seriously.

I don't want the Rangers to trade for Eichel. I was initially open to it, but the more I looked into it, the more red flags I found. I would rather hold on to our prospects and cap space and build the way we have been for the last few years. If they gamble on Eichel and it turns out that I was right about those red flags, then the team will go nowhere for 5 years AND lose a chunk of their future both due to the potential trade and not being able to re-sign key players. Also, if Buffalo fans are so sensitive that they can't stand anyone doing anything but genuflecting at Eichel's glory, bear in mind that the inverse holds true as well. If you don't want Rangers fans in here applying a critical lens to your player, try not calling other teams' players/prospects "trash" and other such insults.
 
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bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
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Bern doesn’t want Panarin taking one-timers from the left circle, which is where he’s most dangerous. Can’t make this shit up.

Just for the record, what I said in pertinent part:
to accommodate natural shot.
KK is a lefty
AP us a righty

it is chiefly for D zone or faceoffs.
On offense Fs have some flexibility as to placement being comfortable provided they are on the same page.
 

Uberpecker

Registered User
Mar 3, 2011
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I know the idea of losing your franchise C is hard and even harder because it’s a self inflicted wound for a business that can’t seem to manage itself....Jack will be moved, the return will suck, and the rest is just.......
Denial is a defense mechanism proposed by Anna Freud which involves a refusal to accept reality, thus blocking external events from awareness. If a situation is just too much to handle, the person may respond by refusing to perceive it or by denying that it exist.
Name dropping Anna Freud doesn't change the fact that you obviously don't understand what reality is.
 
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tsujimoto74

Moderator
May 28, 2012
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If a team has the 1OA and 2OA in the span of two years, I think the 2OA is probably going to be a good enough centerpiece. You are highly unlikely to get any better than that from any team.

This insistence to get a team's best prospect makes no sense to me. The Sabres and Rangers don't even play in the same division. Our contention timelines are very different. Get the best that you can get, not try to sell the trade from a PR perspective that you got a team's best prospect that has almost no relevance to your own team.

I doubt a guy with 6 points is the best we can do.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,741
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New York
I doubt a guy with 6 points is the best we can do.

Great insult, but if he was dominating some lower league like most of the prospects that will be offered, he would supposedly have more trade value.

I'm not buying it. 2OA and has improved this season. Analytics are pretty good. Noticeably a lot better defensively. Has high-end puck skills and everyone expects him to score eventually. I know Adams isn't Yzerman or Sakic, but I think he knows that Kakko's going to be very good and wouldn't say the same things that Buffalo fans here would say. Doesn't mean he'd make a trade, but he wouldn't be making the ridiculous claims about Kakko Sabres fans are making.
 

DuneGoon84

Registered User
Jun 21, 2019
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Great insult, but if he was dominating some lower league like most of the prospects that will be offered, he would supposedly have more trade value.

I'm not buying it. 2OA and has improved this season. Analytics are pretty good. Noticeably a lot better defensively. Has high-end puck skills and everyone expects him to score eventually. I know Adams isn't Yzerman or Sakic, but I think he knows that Kakko's going to be very good and wouldn't say the same things that Buffalo fans here would say. Doesn't mean he'd make a trade, but he wouldn't be making the ridiculous claims about Kakko Sabres fans are making.
Once the game slows down for kakko and laf , man people will change their tunes about them. Kakko has already improved his defensive game so much that I am confident next year his offense will shine. I am impressed with his stick handling in tight spaces. It takes a bit longer get for certain prospects to shine.
 
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CupSeeker

Registered User
Jan 28, 2021
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Ahh, the high horse routine.

You take facts out of context, and construct an argument with them. Here, I'll address them for you. The scoring rate you harp on about you take in a vacuum. First, no one in the league is as good as McDavid. He is not overly relevant because he's in a league of his own. Second, other players like Matthews have a much better supporting cast. You literally cannot ignore that fact to make a solid argument, yet you do. Most everyone looking at your arguments knows this, and knows how weak the arguments are. That's why they are not worth refuting.

And when the points come is also not overly relevant. I can just as easily pull out stats that show how good Eichel is over a whole season. Facts taken out of context while ignoring others make for a weak argument.

And look, I know you're going to try for a witty comeback. Please don't bother, because this is the only response I am going to give you. If you don't want to trade for Eichel, fine, but stop trashing Eichel with arguments like this and expect to be taken seriously.
McDavid is playing with Draisaitl. Who on the Leafs is that good? Marner? maybe, but the statement you made isn't correct. Also, these days I would take Nurse over Reilly on the backend. Matthews is pretty close to McDavid. McDavid is faster; that's the sum total of the difference.
 

BowieSabresFan

Registered User
Nov 18, 2010
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Matthews doesn't have a Draisaitl, but he does have Marner, Tavares, Nylander, etc... In other words, he easily has more scoring support than Eichel. That really isn't up for debate. So I'll stay with my position.

And McDavid is a tier above Matthews, but let's not get into that one on this thread.
 

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