Speculation: Nylander Discussion - Part IV

[Dustin]

So 1/8. Where both offer sheets were low $$

He was asked in the history of the NHL and he found one. It's more than fair considering how rare even OS's are.

Either way believing teams are out to get another by either trying to pay a player too much money or retaliating after an OS are silly. Teams are far more interested in making themselves better not screwing over other teams.

 

[nabob]

2.5 x 1 year ?

Vancouver must have said "Darn it !".

Must have been a tiny target for such a weak offersheet.

 

[Dustin]

I don’t think you understand how the burden of proof works.

Offer sheets are exceedingly rare
Retaliatory offer sheets are even more rare

Carolina sending nylander an offer sheet could result in a retaliatory offer sheet from the leafs. Dubas has spoken of using offer sheets, it’s not a stretch.

It’s likely that one of the reasons offer sheets are rare is fear of opening that box from GM’s around the league.

When nylander signs his offer sheet, I’ll return and heap mountains of praise on you and your buddy nabob’s heads. It’ll be well deserved!

It's a hypothetical situation.

 

[Strangle]

Offer sheets are rare because you have to overpay by a lot for them to be successful along with giving up tons of picks. Has nothing to do with anyone being afraid a a nerdy GM. Leafs won’t have the cap space to throw out a retaliatory offersheet anyway. Your whole stupid hypothetical scenario is a moot point.

Your conversation is riveting, please continue. I’m scribbling furiously, professor!

 

[nabob]

He was asked in the history of the NHL and he found one. It's more than fair considering how rare even OS's are.

Either way believing teams are out to get another by either trying to pay a player too much money or retaliating after an OS are silly. Teams are far more interested in making themselves better not screwing over other teams.

Exactly.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

When nylander signs his offer sheet, I’ll return and heap mountains of praise on you and your buddy nabob’s heads. It’ll be well deserved!

Find me a post where I wrote that Nylander would accept an offer sheet...

Don't take your illusions for reality.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So 1/8. Where both offer sheets were low $$

Technically 1/7. You can't really retaliate against your own retaliatory offer sheet.

Point is, offer sheets almost never happen, for a number of reasons. Retaliatory moves are one of them, though not a main reason.

We had multiple posters here laugh at the very idea of a retaliatory offer sheet, and ask when that has ever happened in the history of the NHL, as if it's some joke that doesn't exist.

Well, I found one, rather easily. Is it really that hard to admit that you're wrong?

 

[135ace]

If they are having this much trouble signing Nylander what's going to happen when they have to resign Marner and Matthews? Matthews doesn't seem keen on taking a discount. How do you get away with paying Nylander only 6.5 when you're going to be forced to pay Matthews 11+? The gap between the two surely isn't that large?

Actually I think it is. I don't think Nylander deserver more than 6/6.5. He should get paid a similar amount to Ehlers. I actually think Ehlers is probably better than Nylander. Matthews and Marner have both been far more impressive than Nylander. And Nylander isn't worth anywhere near a young #1/2D in trade because he just isn't that good. Leafs can't have it both ways, paying him little and claiming he's some amazing young stud player.

 

[Dustin]

2.5 x 1 year ?

Vancouver must have said "Darn it !".

Honest poster indeed. He answered your question.

 

[Strangle]

It's a hypothetical situation.

Right, I have already gone down this road. It only got ridiculous when Nabob started claiming that after the hypothetical offer sheet, the leafs wouldn’t be able to trade nylander cause he would have too high of a contract and a terrible year.

That’s when the hypothetical got off the rails

But just focusing on the offer sheet? Leafs will match and depending o nthe AAV, either trade or keep nylander.

[mod]

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

I don’t think you understand how the burden of proof works.

20 years as an Immigration judgeand I don't understand how the burden of proof works ?

I knew that I had missed something !!!

Good thing that I retired.

 

[nabob]

Technically 1/7. You can't really retaliate against your own retaliatory offer sheet.

Point is, offer sheets almost never happen, for a number of reasons. Retaliatory moves are one of them, though not a main reason.

We had multiple posters here laugh at the very idea of a retaliatory offer sheet, and ask when that has ever happened in the history of the NHL, as if it's some joke that doesn't exist.

Well, I found one, rather easily. Is it really that hard to admit that you're wrong?

There have also been dozens of offersheets that have been signed, but matched. You’d have to include those as well if you’re counting all offersheets.

I didn’t bother counting that one because it was more of a joke than anything. Definitely can’t be considered “revenge” or painting a huge target on another team.

 

[Strangle]

Find me a post where I wrote that Nylander would accept an offer sheet...

Don't take your illusions for reality.

I know you didn’t say he would sign it, but you’re yipping at my heels to the defense of your buddy, who I was talking with regarding the leafs inability to trade nylander after this hypothetical offer sheet.

So look, are we talking about nylander and an offer sheet or not? Your call

 

[Strangle]

20 years as an Immigration judgeand I don't understand how the burden of proof works ?

I knew that I had missed something !!!

Good thing that I retired.

Who cares what job you did before you retired? How is that relevant at all?

In immigration did you ever say “well that doesn’t disprove the allegation!”

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Honest poster indeed. He answered your question.

Did I say otherwise ?

 

[Dustin]

Right, I have already gone down this road. It only got ridiculous when Nabob started claiming that after the hypothetical offer sheet, the leafs wouldn’t be able to trade nylander cause he would have too high of a contract and a terrible year.

That’s when the hypothetical got off the rails

But just focusing on the offer sheet? Leafs will match and depending o nthe AAV, either trade or keep nylander.

[mod]

Well in this hypothetical situation any team that offers Nylander an OS would face a retaliatory offer from Toronto.

Since we are already talking about things like Offer Sheets that are already incredibly rare, I don't see why we can't continue down this line of thinking to accept that the Leafs can use the also very rare case of Offer sheeting one of their players.

Don't mistake me for agreeing with any of this. Probability dictates that he most likely signs with the Leafs and at an amount much closer to what the Leafs want based on the numerous cases times RFA's have been signed or even the few times contract negotiations have gone long as this one has.

 

[Puckstuff]

doesnt appear to solve much for the leafs? shores up defensive prospects and takes away their 2nd best dman albeit for a stud. Their defense would still be quite shallow without knowing how far zaitsev will bounce back

Getting a # 1 d-man in OEL that can play 25 minutes a night doesn't solve our problem?

Zaitsev has looked really good so far, and Dermott also looks like a top 4 d-man very soon.

OEL is a lot better then Gardiner. The difference between Gardiner and OEL is at least Nylander

OEL, Rielly, Zaitsev, Dermott isn't San Jose/Nashville/TB level but it's getting close to that Minnesota tier; with a lot of room to grow.

 

[Strangle]

Well in this hypothetical situation any team that offers Nylander an OS would face a retaliatory offer from Toronto.

Since we are already talking about things like Offer Sheets that are already incredibly rare, I don't see why we can't continue down this line of thinking to accept that the Leafs can use the also very rare case of Offer sheeting one of their players.

Don't mistake me for agreeing with any of this. Probability dictates that he most likely signs with the Leafs and at an amount much closer to what the Leafs want based on the numerous cases times RFA's have been signed or even the few times contract negotiations have gone long as this one has.

I’m with you, I agree.

I was taking this stance myself

 

[Dekes For Days]

2.5 x 1 year ?

Vancouver must have said "Darn it !".

You made an incorrect statement in a condescending way.
You told other people to prove you wrong.
You were proved wrong instantly.
You are now trying to weasel your way out of your statement, that you made while so sure of yourself and your position.

You can just admit that you didn't know what you were talking about, and were wrong, and we can move on.

Or you can continue, and just ruin your credibility even more. Your choice I guess.

 

[Dustin]

Did I say otherwise ?

You certainly implied that they weren't the same or at the very least you were moving the goal posts. You asked if it had happened and he showed you it has.

Seems the probable outcome here is he signs with Toronto. But if some people want to hypothesis about Offer Sheets, it seems like it should be more than fair for other posters to hypothesis about retaliatory Offer Sheets.

 

[GeauxPreds1]

Wonder if him wanting to play center plays a role in him wanting to sign there? Could he be wanting to get traded so he can play center? Just a thought.

 

[Strangle]

Wonder if him wanting to play center plays a role in him wanting to sign there? Could he be wanting to get traded so he can play center? Just a thought.

The best way for him to get traded would be to do a sign and trade.

I think he wants to play for the leafs

 

[Dekes For Days]

There have also been dozens of offersheets that have been signed, but matched. You’d have to include those as well if you’re counting all offersheets.

That does include all of the ones that have been signed but matched... 8 of them. That's all in the last 20 years.

1 of those 8 was not matched.

 

[Dustin]

Getting a # 1 d-man in OEL that can play 25 minutes a night doesn't solve our problem?

Zaitsev has looked really good so far, and Dermott also looks like a top 4 d-man very soon.

OEL is a lot better then Gardiner. The difference between Gardiner and OEL is at least Nylander

OEL, Rielly, Zaitsev, Dermott isn't San Jose/Nashville/TB level but it's getting close to that Minnesota tier; with a lot of room to grow.

I agree it's certainly in the realm of possibility in terms of value. I doubt Arizona would want to trade OEL after signing him long term and while losing Gardiner as our 2nd pairing guy, I'm not sold Dermott is quite ready. I think if a trade did go down like this the Leafs would probably still be looking for a middle pairing Dman.

 

[nabob]

That does include all of the ones that have been signed but matched... 8 of them. That''s all in the last 20 years.

1 of those 8 was not matched.

No there has been many more than that.