McKenzie: "Nurse negotiations are not going well at all" (Oilers offer 2 year deal)

[hockeyguy1967]

That Draisaitl contract is looking better every day.

Take 23 year old Drai 11/10 times @8.5 over 28 year old Tavares @11

 

[JeremyTB]

Betcha he scores at least 50p this year.

Is he playing on McDavid's line? I guess McJesus can always bounce a few pucks off him.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

Is he playing on McDavid's line? I guess McJesus can always bounce a few pucks off him.

Nope prob with Drai.
He had a bad 1/2 a year where he shot at a like 2% shooting percentage. You think that is going to continue onto another season? This forum is so full of horrible judges of players it is sick.

 

[kittiecarlyle]

Oh don’t quibble. You know what I meant. The Oilers have done a lot of stupid things but they didn’t give Lucic that contract expecting this level of performance.

McDavid is worth every penny of his contract. Draisaitl’s a bit overpaid but in the grand scheme of things it doesn’t hurt as much as some of the contracts greatly lesser players on this club have.

There, you have corrected yourself partially.

It isn't about what matters more, it all matters. Over payments hinder teams and a million to Draisatl still counts as much as a million to Russell. Like I have said, a half million here a million there pretty soon it is actually real money against the cap.

 

[JeremyTB]

Nope prob with Drai.
He had a bad 1/2 a year where he shot at a like 2% shooting percentage. You think that is going to continue onto another season? This forum is so full of horrible judges of players it is sick.

He scored 10 goals last year and 24 points. I would say it was more than just half the year.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

He scored 10 goals last year and 24 points. I would say it was more than just half the year.

34 points..... Get your facts straight bud

Majority of his points came prior to Christmas

 

[Tobias Kahun]

He scored 10 goals last year and 24 points. I would say it was more than just half the year.

24 points? I think you mean 34.

 

[JeremyTB]

24 points? I think you mean 34.

Yes 34. I was thinking assists.

 

[Riptide]

There, you have corrected yourself partially.

It isn't about what matters more, it all matters. Over payments hinder teams and a million to Draisatl still counts as much as a million to Russell. Like I have said, a half million here a million there pretty soon it is actually real money against the cap.

Yes and no. There's a few positions you can get away overpaying players for - top line centers, top pairing blueliners and #1 goalies. Your depth centers and your wingers and your middle pairing and depth blueliners all need to be set to a budget of sorts. But you're not winning without a very good #1 and #2 center, and for most teams a true #1D.

And no it doesn't all count the same. The difference between overpaying Draisaitl by 1m vs Russell (using your example) is that you can get away with playing a cheaper winger along side Draisaitl to make up the difference. Just like a true top pairing D can cover up a lot of the flaws of a lesser D partner. Overpaying Russell by 1m doesn't accomplish anything other than filling a hole - at which point overpaying him is pointless. But overpaying guys who can make lesser players around them better, while not ideal is something many teams have had to suck up over the years, and depending on the player, their abilities and the position they play sometimes isn't even that big a deal.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

There, you have corrected yourself partially.

It isn't about what matters more, it all matters. Over payments hinder teams and a million to Draisatl still counts as much as a million to Russell. Like I have said, a half million here a million there pretty soon it is actually real money against the cap.

eh not really. I also think Draisaitl is a bit overpaid, but that's not a huge deal. top end talent is worth it

 

[hockeyguy1967]

He scored 10 goals last year and 24 points. I would say it was more than just half the year.

How many of the goals and assists did he get in the first half?

 

[JeremyTB]

How many of the goals and assists did he get in the first half?

He had 1 goal 6 assists in the 1st half and 9 goals 18 assists in the 2nd half. So yes he was much better in the 2nd half but still not all that great for a guy making $6 million a year. He would still average less than 20 goals if he did in the 1st what he did in the 2nd. And that's if he maintains that level of play for the entire season which IMO is doubtful because slumps happen. I see him more of a 15 goal 40 points guy at most which is ok for a 3rd liner. But not a 2nd liner making $6 million a year who takes stupid penalties.

 

[dss97]

How many of the goals and assists did he get in the first half?

26 points in his first 36 games.

He was having a pretty good year before he forgot how to play hockey in the second half.

 

[kittiecarlyle]

Yes and no. There's a few positions you can get away overpaying players for - top line centers, top pairing blueliners and #1 goalies. Your depth centers and your wingers and your middle pairing and depth blueliners all need to be set to a budget of sorts. But you're not winning without a very good #1 and #2 center, and for most teams a true #1D.

And no it doesn't all count the same. The difference between overpaying Draisaitl by 1m vs Russell (using your example) is that you can get away with playing a cheaper winger along side Draisaitl to make up the difference. Just like a true top pairing D can cover up a lot of the flaws of a lesser D partner. Overpaying Russell by 1m doesn't accomplish anything other than filling a hole - at which point overpaying him is pointless. But overpaying guys who can make lesser players around them better, while not ideal is something many teams have had to suck up over the years, and depending on the player, their abilities and the position they play sometimes isn't even that big a deal.

Disagree with how you detail this. A dollar is a dollar so no, saying no it doesn't all count the same is simply wrong.

It also is not about getting away with paying more for certain positions. The point is not whether paying your top C or D a million more than you should or compared to similar if not exact other players, or paying that amount more to your 5th or 6th D is more of an error and hindrance.

You have the options you describe whether you pay a premium or not to any player. All contracts get included in the total, so if a team paid 4 of their bottom 6 players, forwards and dmen too much, it still takes away from your available cap dollars just as it does wnen you pay more than you should for top players. The point is not what is more acceptable.

When a team like the Oilers is in a tight, tough spot re the cap the mistakes made all are factors.

 

[mouser]

What happens when Sekara is fit to play 3-5 months (Dec-Feb)
from now?

They’d have to free up the pro-rated room necessary to activate him. E.g. if the Oilers are over by $100k on day 1in the hypothetical scenario I described then if Sekera is healthy halfway through the season they’d have to lose $200k in cap AAV to activate him.

Which should be trivial—after all we assume a healthy returning Sekera is displacing another active roster slot on the D, whomever that is. CF numbers currently have 8 Dmen on the Oilers with Sekera injured and Nurse an RFA. When Sekera is healthy they can just drop down to 7 D.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

He had 1 goal 6 assists in the 1st half and 9 goals 18 assists in the 2nd half. So yes he was much better in the 2nd half but still not all that great for a guy making $6 million a year. He would still average less than 20 goals if he did in the 1st what he did in the 2nd. And that's if he maintains that level of play for the entire season which IMO is doubtful because slumps happen. I see him more of a 15 goal 40 points guy at most which is ok for a 3rd liner. But not a 2nd liner making $6 million a year who takes stupid penalties.

Lol wtf are you talking about, you are looking up the wrong stats my friend lol

 

[kittiecarlyle]

eh not really. I also think Draisaitl is a bit overpaid, but that's not a huge deal. top end talent is worth it

That is not the point though is it?

A bit overpaid several times actually becomes a factor as we are seeing. The question is not whether paying an extra million to a top player is more worthwhile than paying that amount to a bottom tier one is.

So, yes really.

 

[JeremyTB]

Lol wtf are you talking about, you are looking up the wrong stats my friend lol

I was looking at his game logs but maybe I read them backwards. So maybe it's the opposite. 1 goal 6 assists in the final half of the season and 9 goals 18 assists in the 1st half. I thought I was reading from Oct to April but instead it was from April to Oct. But that actually makes it look worse for him. It means he got worse as the season went on.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

I was looking at his game logs but maybe I read them backwards. So maybe it's the opposite. 1 goal 6 assists in the final half of the season and 9 goals 18 assists in the 1st half. I thought I was reading from Oct to April but instead it was from April to Oct. But that actually makes it look worse for him. It means he got worse as the season went on.

Yes, he did terrible in second half hence he had a terrible second half.....

 

[Del Preston]

I don't know why we're talking about Lucic in here but the fact is he had a bad ~40 games to end the season, that's it. He had a typical 50-60 point season in 2016-17 and was on pace for his typical season in the first half of last season. 23 points in 28 games heading into Christmas and was 16th for left wingers in scoring at the holiday break. The game suddenly didn't get faster or he got slower. I believe him when he said it was almost entirely mental.

 

[JeremyTB]

Yes, he did terrible in second half hence he had a terrible second half.....

So what makes you think he will be better this season? Especially if he is not playing on McDavid's line which I suspect could be a reason why he did nothing in the 2nd half of last season. I know I won't be taking him on any of my fanduel teams no matter how cheap they have him at. But nonetheless there is no way you can support him being worth his contract or even close to it. If Oilers could trade him, they would.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

So what makes you think he will be better this season? Especially if he is not playing on McDavid's line which I suspect could be a reason why he did nothing in the 2nd half of last season. I know I won't be taking him on any of my fanduel teams no matter how cheap they have him at. But nonetheless there is no way you can support him being worth his contract or even close to it. If Oilers could trade him, they would.

Well, first off I doubt he will keep shooting at 3 percent when he normally shoots at 14.... Second I do not base his future career on 1/2 season where player was having admittedly lot of mental issues compared to the rest of his career when he has been pretty solid.

 

[Riptide]

Disagree with how you detail this. A dollar is a dollar so no, saying no it doesn't all count the same is simply wrong.

It also is not about getting away with paying more for certain positions. The point is not whether paying your top C or D a million more than you should or compared to similar if not exact other players, or paying that amount more to your 5th or 6th D is more of an error and hindrance.

You have the options you describe whether you pay a premium or not to any player. All contracts get included in the total, so if a team paid 4 of their bottom 6 players, forwards and dmen too much, it still takes away from your available cap dollars just as it does wnen you pay more than you should for top players. The point is not what is more acceptable.

When a team like the Oilers is in a tight, tough spot re the cap the mistakes made all are factors.

Except that those bottom level players are much easier to replace. Your top centers/blueliners... not so much.

 

[kittiecarlyle]

Except that those bottom level players are much easier to replace. Your top centers/blueliners... not so much.

Totally agree with that. Still not the point but yes bottom line players are easier to replace.

If it was a choice to pay a true difference maker a million more than was needed or you should versus a bottom of the roster one then yes that would make sense. Again though all dollars matter and the total is the sum of all contracts. They all matter.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Lot of stink made about a pretty mediocre second pairing defenseman. I'm sure that's exactly what Chiarelli was looking for heading into training camp, already down Sekera. Didn't really think there was much possibility for this to drag into the regular season over a couple 100 thousand. Still don't really but it's beginning to look more like a stalemate than an ongoing cordial negotiation.