No NHL - Players say 'No Problem'

[HAWKSWINHAWKSWIN]

The MLB strike saw some scabs get some rough treatment.

the NFL line-crossing was so widespread that nothing could really be done after the first game or two. I have a feeling the NHL would see a lot more in common with the NFL than MLB.

Umm, how many NHLPA players will be here to walk the picket lines? All the Europeans are going to be back in Europe playing hockey... (How many of them are going to come here to walk the picket line? Not many by the looks of it with Bob telling people to start signing in Europe...) So you will have about, what, 50% of the NHLPA here on this continent, with a good chunk of those playing in the AHL. It will be interesting to see how many will come back to walk the picket line. This will give them a good idea of how strong their "solidarity" is.

I don't see any picket lines going up. There is no solidarity in the NHLPA, except in following Goodenow over the cliff. For everything else, its every man for himself...

 

[arnie]

Added union boss Bob Goodenow: "If they decide to use replacement players, that's their legal right. (But) I think it would be disastrous and devastating to the game."

Yeah, it really killed the NFL, didn't it.

 

[TheZodiac]

Did anyone else notice the lack of European players at the NHLPA solidarity meeting????? I say 50 percent of NHL players will cross the line.

 

[Other Dave]

Hm, you sure have all the answers. It's strange that no one "in the business" has figured all of this out, because you, in your ubiquitous wisdom, have it all figured out.

This looks like a pretty straighforward claim for someone to research*, but I guess it's easier to impugn the motivation of the person making the claim.

(*Hint: NHL players most likely enter the States on P-1 visas)

 

[Other Dave]

Did anyone else notice the lack of European players at the NHLPA solidarity meeting????? I say 50 percent of NHL players will cross the line.

Perhaps European players aren't permitted to work during a labor dispute.

 

[djhn579]

Perhaps European players aren't permitted to work during a labor dispute.

But since they are members of the NHLPA, they will get to vote on whether the PA will accept the NHL's final offer if/when they declare impasse or go on strike.

That most Europeans did not go to the union meeting could mean that they disagree with the union position and would vote to accept if a deal is offered. (It could also mean that they just don't care one way or another...)

 

[Mess]

There is huges legal problems with replacement players. Specially with immigration and labor laws.


http://www.freep.com/sports/hockey/nhl-bar217e_20050217.htm
"The legal complexities grow deeper and murkier the more you look into them. For example, because of immigration and labor laws requirements, American teams could be restricted to hiring American players and Canadian teams to hiring Canadian players. Then, too, the union might find it advantageous to decertify itself -- go out of business as a union -- to try to form a new trade association that would not be subject to a collective bargaining agreement imposed by the owners."

Also the NHL cap's objective is to reduce the salaries and not to support the expansion of the league like it was the case in 1987 for the NFL. The situation is more like the baseball one in 1994 and they have'nt been able to bring the scabs.

Truth is, getting replacement workers into the United States would be a rather daunting task. According to one of the nation's top immigration lawyers, who is counsel to the Washington Capitals, the league would be in uncharted waters at a time when restrictions imposed by the Department of Homeland Security are being applied to severely curtail foreigners in the American workplace.

"There are a lot of complicated regulations and there are always visa issues," said Jonathan Avirom, managing partner of Avirom & Associates in New York City.

Avirom, 66, is the former president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA). His firm specializes in every facet of immigration and in securing visas, including for entertainers and athletes.

He has assisted hundreds of NHL players in securing work visas and has been immigration counsel to the Capitals for the last four years.

"The Department of Labor and Immigration under Homeland Security have always said that if there is a labor dispute, they would freeze the process," Avirom said. "In other words, new people who want to play in a sport where they don't have visas, they won't get a visa while the dispute is going on."

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/sports/10957160.htm

 

[Tinordi24*]

The more the NHLPA would try to stifle replacement players or other tactics the owners have for putting the game back on the menu the more villified they will become in the public's eyes. They are going down.

GW and republican advantaged NLRB will find a way to get it done. Youre deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

 

[Lil' Jimmy Norton*]

None.

They cannot get work visas to play in the NHL because there is a labour dispute ongoing and any existing NHL work visas are void.

The labour dispute will be gone by September 15th either way. CBA will be in place not only by impasse but also could be in effect by the NHL then the courts and NLRB get involved IF the PA wants to fight it. Then were talking about years of litigation...too much time for these PA clowns to sit. Also because the NHL owns all intellectual rights to the league , logo's trademark and intellectual property they could fold the current NHL and reopen as NHL2 ... Bill Watters former Leaf Asst GM and agent has talked about this as being a legitimate route for the league to go in.

 

[SuperUnknown]

Imo, if they go the replacement player route, they will dispute that the law requiring them to hire only americans (or canadians) as replacements is valid.

Why? Simply because in the NHL's case, the law would be at the employee's disadvantage. The NHL's employees are in minority americans. So a law forcing an employer to hire americans (in order to protect the american workers) would mean some employees couldn't cross the line and earn their dues if they wanted. This simply doesn't make sense. Imo, the NHL will assure that the canadians and americans are fairly represented (at an equal or higher % they were present in the last year of play) and could most probably get around the law.

 

[Tinordi24*]

Imo, if they go the replacement player route, they will dispute that the law requiring them to hire only americans (or canadians) as replacements is valid.

Why? Simply because in the NHL's case, the law would be at the employee's disadvantage. The NHL's employees are in minority americans. So a law forcing an employer to hire americans (in order to protect the american workers) would mean some employees couldn't cross the line and earn their dues if they wanted. This simply doesn't make sense. Imo, the NHL will assure that the canadians and americans are fairly represented (at an equal or higher % they were present in the last year of play) and could most probably get around the law.

One of the big flaws of the NHL in the US is that alot of times players are from all kinds of countries and its hard for the average fan to remember let alone pronounce their names!

There will be some measure of benefit IF this happens and only Americans or Canadians are allowed to play in the NHL...in a wierd way..but there is some benefit to it.

 

[SuperUnknown]

One of the big flaws of the NHL in the US is that alot of times players are from all kinds of countries and its hard for the average fan to remember let alone pronounce their names!

There will be some measure of benefit IF this happens and only Americans or Canadians are allowed to play in the NHL...in a wierd way..but there is some benefit to it.

There could, and most likely I think the NHL, if they go the replacement players way, will try to fill the rosters with canadians or americans. However, they probably want to leave the door open for European nhlers that want to cross the line, so I think they'll dispute the law limiting the labour to americans (or canadians). I mean, what sense does it make (the law) if Juraj Kolnik can't cross and earn his salary since it's his job that is being protected?

 

[PecaFan]

It was if you were a player that crossed the line. Players that crossed the line have never been allowed to join the players union. Those players that crossed may have been given the opportunity to play a few games in the NFL, but it cut their professional career off at the knees because once the labor dispute was resolved, they were blacklisted. Don't you think that is something that every player will consider before they cross the line?

Huh? Have you read anything about the NFL situation? Guys like Joe Montana and Lawrence Taylor were blacklisted? It cut their career off at the knees?

The only players who had their career cut off were the ones who weren't going to have an NFL career anyways.

It did for the owners.

The players won free agency, ended the Rozelle Rule and the owners had to pay $195 million to settle the outstanding antitrust suits with the players. Whereupon the NFLPA reconstituted and signed a new CBA.

Right. The NFL owners are crying in their beer over how they "lost" that one.

Man, are you ever in denial. No player's union has ever received a setback according to you. You're like Captain Smith and the Black Knight all rolled into one "We have nothing to worry about with that iceberg AND it's only a flesh wound!"

I swear, the PA could agree to a deal with a $10 million hard cap per team, a $500K hard cap per player, all free agency and arbitration eliminated, and you'd be here trumpeting the "great win" by the players.

 

[SENSible1*]

Huh? Have you read anything about the NFL situation? Guys like Joe Montana and Lawrence Taylor were blacklisted? It cut their career off at the knees?

The only players who had their career cut off were the ones who weren't going to have an NFL career anyways.



Right. The NFL owners are crying in their beer over how they "lost" that one.

Man, are you ever in denial. No player's union has ever received a setback according to you. You're like Captain Smith and the Black Knight all rolled into one "We have nothing to worry about with that iceberg AND it's only a flesh wound!"

I swear, the PA could agree to a deal with a $10 million hard cap per team, a $500K hard cap per player, all free agency and arbitration eliminated, and you'd be here trumpeting the "great win" by the players.

Post of the DAY!

Spinning the NFL labour history into a win for the PA is laughable at best.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Hm, you sure have all the answers. It's strange that no one "in the business" has figured all of this out, because you, in your ubiquitous wisdom, have it all figured out. And that's a pretty damning case you have there, because while you've been a fanatical drum major in the NHLPA parade throughout all of this, I'm sure you're not letting any subjectivity creep into your arguments. They should just stop writing these stories and hinting at replacement players, because [email protected] has already debunked all of those hopes.

Hey, at least you'll be able to catch Seattle Canucks games on TV.

Maybe I know about this because I have 30 years experience in dealing with immigration matters? And I lecture to Canadian and US lawyers on the subject at CLE courses. And I have taught immigration law at a law school. And I have been player agent. And I have had to get visas and work permits for my hockey clients.

I am not the only one who has figured it out - it ain't rocket science. I am sure the NHL is well aware of the problem since one of the leading US immigration lawyers in that country advises the Washington Capitals on these matters.

"There are a lot of complicated regulations and there are always visa issues," said Jonathan Avirom, managing partner of Avirom & Associates in New York City who is the former president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA). His firm specializes in every facet of immigration and in securing visas, including for entertainers and athletes. He has assisted hundreds of NHL players in securing work visas and has been immigration counsel to the Capitals for the last four years.

His conclusion - "The Department of Labor and Immigration under Homeland Security have always said that if there is a labor dispute, they would freeze the process."

It is the law which is pretty simple in this particular case. Labour dispute in progress = no work visas and no work permits - no exceptions and no discretion. Same in Canada and the US.

Various media members have pointed out the problem as well and I have spoken to several who call me for input on legal, immigration, sports law and contractual matters when writing stories.

Immigration laws another potential roadblock if NHL opts for impasse

Allen Panzeri
The Ottawa Citizen
Saturday, January 15, 2005

It is called, by the union for minor-league hockey players, which used it two years ago, the "immigration" card.

It is also one the National Hockey League Players' Association would likely play if the NHL tried to restart with replacement players.

Of all the legal hoops the NHL would have to jump through before it could get its impasse -- the first step in unilaterally setting its own terms and restarting with replacement players -- the ones it probably won't get through are immigration laws in Canada and the United States.

Neither country will issue work visas to workers who are coming to take the jobs of those on strike or involved in labour disputes, and that includes hockey players.

Such regulations would effectively shrink what is otherwise a global talent pool.

Only United States residents would be able to work for U.S.-based teams, while only Canadian residents would be able to work for Canadian-based teams.

Using these immigration regulations was successful for the Professional Hockey Players' Association, which represents American Hockey League and East Coast Hockey League players, in contract talks with the ECHL two years ago.

Eight weeks before the start of the 2003-2004 season, the PHPA struck.

Association executive director Larry Landon said the strategy was taken in an "effort to create an environment that would get the teams back to the table."

The PPHA had to jump through several legal hoops with the National Labour Relations Board and the U.S. Department of Labour.

However, once the strike was certified, the border was effectively shut. The U.S. would not issue work visas to those hoping to come in as replacement workers, would not extend visas and would rescind visas that had already been issued.

The strategy worked. The league came back to the table.

The strike lasted seven weeks, but the season opened on schedule.

"As it turned out, we got the deal done," Landon said. "By closing the border and going around the clock, we got the deal done."

Because that immigration card is available to play, Landon doesn't believe the NHL will declare an impasse, not to mention that such a move would alienate the players.

"The NHL keeps saying it wants a partnership with the players," Landon said. "Why, then, would you divorce your partner before you get married?"

Also, since everyone who plays in the AHL and the ECHL is a card-carrying member of the PHPA, anyone who crosses the line as a replacement player would be offending two unions.

And your area of expertise and experience beyond scoffing at things of which you obviously have not a clue is what precisely?????

 

[Wetcoaster]

Did anyone else notice the lack of European players at the NHLPA solidarity meeting?????

Maybe because nearly all of them are back in Europe playing hockey???? I did not see Canadian or American players at the meeting who were under contract and playing in Europe.

 

[Wetcoaster]

The labour dispute will be gone by September 15th either way. CBA will be in place not only by impasse but also could be in effect by the NHL then the courts and NLRB get involved IF the PA wants to fight it. Then were talking about years of litigation...too much time for these PA clowns to sit. Also because the NHL owns all intellectual rights to the league , logo's trademark and intellectual property they could fold the current NHL and reopen as NHL2 ... Bill Watters former Leaf Asst GM and agent has talked about this as being a legitimate route for the league to go in.

Wrong on so many counts in so few lines.

The NHL does not own the trademarks and logos. They are owned by the individual teams and licensed to NHL Enterprises for marketing purposes. You can search the trademark databases in Canada and the US for free on the Internet - go ahead and do a search - then tell us who actually owns the trademarks and logos.

If Bill Watters has said this then he is more ill-informed that his usual blatherings.

If the NHL declares an impasse and attempts to use replacement players, the labour dispute continues because under US law replacement players are only a temporary solution. The NHL is legally obligated to continue to negotiate with the NHLPA and bargain in good fatih even while the matter is under review and even if the NHL does get the NLRB to approve - the labour dispute still continues. This is clear according to the US Supreme Court in Brown v. NFL. So Canadians in Canada and Americans on US based teams

If the NHLPA decides to return to work they can decertify and then the owners will be subject to the full force of antitrust law - never a good idea as the NFL discovered.

 

[Jarqui]

Wrong on so many counts in so few lines.

The NHL does not own the trademarks and logos. They are owned by the individual teams and licensed to NHL Enterprises for marketing purposes. You can search the trademark databases in Canada and the US for free on the Internet - go ahead and do a search - then tell us who actually owns the trademarks and logos.

How long do you think it would take the teams to sell them to NHL2 if it meant the end of Bob Goodenow ?]

 

[Exisled]

The labour dispute will be gone by September 15th either way. CBA will be in place not only by impasse but also could be in effect by the NHL then the courts and NLRB get involved IF the PA wants to fight it. Then were talking about years of litigation...too much time for these PA clowns to sit.

As has already been posted, there is no "end" to the labor dispute simply because there's been a declaration of Impasse, (and that's assuming that it WILL be upheld). The NHL is STILL obligated to bargain in good faith with the NHLPA toward a COLLECTIVELY Bargained Agreement. "Collective" meaning EVERYONE involved in the process.....not just the "boses" saying "Here's our offer. Take it or leave it."

Because the NHL owns all intellectual rights to the league , logo's trademark and intellectual property they could fold the current NHL and reopen as NHL2 ... Bill Watters former Leaf Asst GM and agent has talked about this as being a legitimate route for the league to go in.

Not quite. As a matter of fact, not even CLOSE.

According to this site :

Topic: Successor Employer Must Bargain with Unions

Description: Appeals court held that a new company that was formed from existing companies is a successor employer that must bargain with the unions that represented the employees when they worked for their previous employers.

Facts: DDE is a joint venture created by Dow Chemical and DuPont to make synthetic rubber products. As a successor to DuPont, DDE offered employment to DuPont's workers and set the terms of employment without bargaining with the unions that represented the DuPont workers. The unions filed a grievance with the National Labor Relations Board, contending that DDE was required to bargain with the union. The Board upheld the union's position and ordered the parties to bargain. DDE appealed.

Decision: Affirmed. The unions already representing the workforce at a factory have the right to bargain with a successor corporation. When a company is clearly a successor employer, it is obligated to bargain with unions before setting the terms and conditions of employment unless the union waives the right to bargain.

Citation: DuPont Dow Elastromers v. NLRB, 296 F.3d 495 (6th Cir., 2002)


As for the poster who suggests that some Vancouver fans will have the opportunity to enjoy watching their Canucks play in Seattle....???

Well.....(according to the same site), that's not looking very likely, either.


Topic: Union Plant Must Stay Open; May Not Move South

Description: Appeals court upheld NLRB request for injunctive relief to require Pennsylvania manufacturer to stay in operation rather than move to new plant in Georgia, pending appeal of decision by NLRB that plant was guilty of unfair labor practices during collective bargaining talks.

Facts: Dorsey employed 200 UAW workers. When the collective bargaining agreement expired, the parties failed to reach a new agreement and the workers went on strike. Dorsey then looked into moving operations from Pennsylvania to Georgia. Despite new union concessions, Dorsey closed the plant to move operations. The union filed various unfair labor practices complaints. An NLRB ALJ ruled for the unions and ordered the Pennsylvania plant be reopened. The NLRB moved in federal court "to prevent Dorsey from selling or alienating the plant" before the NLRB ruled on the merits of the unfair labor charges. The district court denied the request largely because the NLRB waited over a year to make the request and the matter was draining Dorsey's cash; the new plant in Georgia would have to be closed and most Pennsylvania workers had already found other employment. The NLRB appealed.

Decision: Reversed. The NLRB is due injunctive relief; if Dorsey were allowed to sell the Pennsylvania plant, it would eliminate the remedy of forcing the company back into operation. The financial hardship on Dorsey was of its own making. The NLRB may have been slow to move, but that alone is not enough to allow denial of injunctive relief. Injunctive relief is to be granted.

Citation: Hirsch v. Dorsey Trailers, Inc., 1998 WL 290221 (---F.3d.---, 3rd Cir.)

 

[TheZodiac]

Maybe because nearly all of them are back in Europe playing hockey???? I did not see Canadian or American players at the meeting who were under contract and playing in Europe.

Maybe they don't care about the NHLPA's BS position, 157 players of 700 showed up to find out the future of their careers!!!!! IMHO Bob Goodenow is just collecting cheques until he gets fired.

 

[Exisled]

Maybe they don't care about the NHLPA's BS position, 157 players of 700 showed up to find out the future of their careers!!!!! IMHO Bob Goodenow is just collecting cheques until he gets fired.

Perhaps you weren't aware of the fact that neither Goodenow nor Saskin have drawn a single pay-check during this lock-out. They have waived their salaries, and have vowed not to take any pay until their constituents have an Agreement with the NHL.

Bettman and Daly, on the other hand, have not missed a single pay-check.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Imo, if they go the replacement player route, they will dispute that the law requiring them to hire only americans (or canadians) as replacements is valid.

Why? Simply because in the NHL's case, the law would be at the employee's disadvantage. The NHL's employees are in minority americans. So a law forcing an employer to hire americans (in order to protect the american workers) would mean some employees couldn't cross the line and earn their dues if they wanted. This simply doesn't make sense. Imo, the NHL will assure that the canadians and americans are fairly represented (at an equal or higher % they were present in the last year of play) and could most probably get around the law.

There is nothing to dispute and nothing to get around. The immigration law is crystal clear and there are no exceptions or discretion. If there is a labour dispute in progress - no foreign workers. Jonathan Avirom, managing partner of Avirom & Associates in New York City and he is the former president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA). His firm specializes in every facet of immigration and in securing visas, including for entertainers and athletes.

"The Department of Labor and Immigration under Homeland Security have always said that if there is a labor dispute, they would freeze the process."

No exceptions, no discretion, no consideration of "minority americans".

 

[Wetcoaster]

There could, and most likely I think the NHL, if they go the replacement players way, will try to fill the rosters with canadians or americans. However, they probably want to leave the door open for European nhlers that want to cross the line, so I think they'll dispute the law limiting the labour to americans (or canadians). I mean, what sense does it make (the law) if Juraj Kolnik can't cross and earn his salary since it's his job that is being protected?

There is nothing to dispute. The law is clear. Labour dispute in progress - no work visas. Simple.

 

[BLONG7]

None.

They cannot get work visas to play in the NHL because there is a labour dispute ongoing and any existing NHL work visas are void.

Wetcoaster, why don't you stop spreading your wisdom here and give your Uncle Bob Goodenow a call...you always seem to have all the answers, and heaven forbid if anyone disagree with you... you just bowl them over with all your ramblings...YOU are obviously not a fan of the game, just a fan of the business, and this is why guys like you and Goodenow are not very popular with hockey FANS...

 

[mr gib]

Wetcoaster, why don't you stop spreading your wisdom here and give your Uncle Bob Goodenow a call...you always seem to have all the answers, and heaven forbid if anyone disagree with you... you just bowl them over with all your ramblings...YOU are obviously not a fan of the game, just a fan of the business, and this is why guys like you and Goodenow are not very popular with hockey FANS...

truth hurt's