SuperUnknown
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Wetcoaster said:
If things were that simple, we wouldn't need lawyers. I think you should know this. Unless you're a poser.
No NHL - Players say 'No Problem'
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If things were that simple, we wouldn't need lawyers. I think you should know this. Unless you're a poser.
BLONG7 said:
Quick translation:
Wetcoaster, we don't want to hear the facts. Let us continue to believe that this will all be settled, and that the Owners will get EVERYTHING they want, and MORE, based upon the premise of "Because we're the bosses, and we said so.".....you seem to have all the answers, and heaven forbid anyone disagree with you....you just bring up silly factors such as logic, and cite the actual LAW, to support your stance.....YOU are obviously not a person who will simply bend over and allow those who consider themselves to be your "betters" to have their way with you, just a guy who has the temerity to stand firm and fight the powers that be, and this is why guys like you are not very popular with those of us who truly believe that "He who has the Gold SHOULD make the Rules - ALL the Rules."
MarkZackKarl
Registered User
just ignore them
Exisled, its best to put the majority of the people on this board on ignore. From the elementary school logic to their irrational love or desire to see the owners get guaranteed profits, its just a waste... I should really not even bother coming here, not even once every 10 days... its not that I mind differing opinions, its when the overwhelming majority is so misguided and actually supporting something that is against their best interests... Guess it makes me pity them.
Exisled, its best to put the majority of the people on this board on ignore. From the elementary school logic to their irrational love or desire to see the owners get guaranteed profits, its just a waste... I should really not even bother coming here, not even once every 10 days... its not that I mind differing opinions, its when the overwhelming majority is so misguided and actually supporting something that is against their best interests... Guess it makes me pity them.
scaredsensfan said:
every business tries to guarantee profits otherwise they would not be in business...
that is the nature of business and it is their right as owners and they are exercising it...
unfortunately we as fans pay for this...
MarkZackKarl
Registered User
Im not saying it is unreasonable for the owners to persue profits, and I am not chastising them for their 'goal'. But this goal of theirs, to get themselves on the road to profitability (and I am not one to believe their armagedon (sp?) loss totals either) does not and should not have been to lock out the players, hold the fans hostage, and try to impose a ridiculously lopsided CBA with not ONE bone to the players (Unless you consider keeping a cap at a rate lower than the freely decided payrolls last year with NO FLEXIBILITY or keeping, *gasp* guaranteed contracts on the table a concession).
The owners goals have nothing that will help the fans. The quality of play in a watered down NHL where players are 'evenly distributed' will suck. Not to mention the immediate cost of having been deprived of a great league for what will soon be 18 months, at least, to everything in between, supporting the owners makes little sense. Im not saying one has to support the lpayers , even though their case is far more rational, but at least if people would be able to be neutral, because AT BEST the owners case is about the same in its 'results' as the players one, but a closer examination in reality will show that the owners vision is horrible for fans, in both the short and long term.
I, thinking that I can rationalize and deduct things, find it counter-productive to support something that is not in my best interests...
Just my opinion.
and make one very important decision that all the high schoolers on this board seem to be missing: A business should have the POTENTIAL to be profitable. They should not be GUARANTEED profitabiilty.
The whole incentive that drives business/economic dealings is the DESIRE for profitability. If that incentive is gone, or in other words, already guaranteed regardless of the actions taken by the business, than all that leads to is an inferior product that is passed on to consumers...
Now if only fans were smart and put money where their mouth is, ie. withdraw their support both emotionally and financially from the teams as a ransom, then maybe we would get NHL hockey back soon. Because the only way the owners are getting away with this insane lockout is because the majority, at least in the early going, has been too ignorant to see reality!
The owners surely wouldnt be still be playing hardball if they were losing 50% of their season tickt bases, their radio contracts ,TV deals and suite revenues, now would they? Until fans start revolting, the owners will be in no hurry to cut a deal, and the longer the NHL is locked out the worse it is for fans, both in present time and in the future going forward.
The owners goals have nothing that will help the fans. The quality of play in a watered down NHL where players are 'evenly distributed' will suck. Not to mention the immediate cost of having been deprived of a great league for what will soon be 18 months, at least, to everything in between, supporting the owners makes little sense. Im not saying one has to support the lpayers , even though their case is far more rational, but at least if people would be able to be neutral, because AT BEST the owners case is about the same in its 'results' as the players one, but a closer examination in reality will show that the owners vision is horrible for fans, in both the short and long term.
I, thinking that I can rationalize and deduct things, find it counter-productive to support something that is not in my best interests...
Just my opinion.
and make one very important decision that all the high schoolers on this board seem to be missing: A business should have the POTENTIAL to be profitable. They should not be GUARANTEED profitabiilty.
The whole incentive that drives business/economic dealings is the DESIRE for profitability. If that incentive is gone, or in other words, already guaranteed regardless of the actions taken by the business, than all that leads to is an inferior product that is passed on to consumers...
Now if only fans were smart and put money where their mouth is, ie. withdraw their support both emotionally and financially from the teams as a ransom, then maybe we would get NHL hockey back soon. Because the only way the owners are getting away with this insane lockout is because the majority, at least in the early going, has been too ignorant to see reality!
The owners surely wouldnt be still be playing hardball if they were losing 50% of their season tickt bases, their radio contracts ,TV deals and suite revenues, now would they? Until fans start revolting, the owners will be in no hurry to cut a deal, and the longer the NHL is locked out the worse it is for fans, both in present time and in the future going forward.
scaredsensfan said:
i kind of agree with what you are saying here... and I do think in some ways I am glad the players are sticking to their guns a bit... the owners should be sharing their revenue as a group more than they currently are so all teams can be on a level playing field... but the players have not really shown the public what they are fighting for.. other than for themselves... and I fail to see them fighting to keep teams in Edmonton. Calgary and Ottawa... if there ultimate goal is to make the NHL healthier and more profitable thereby increasing their share of the pie... then let the media know this and put pressure on the owners... but we have not heard this from their side at all... they have acted quite unprofessional (at least Goodenow has) with his name calling and Gary this, Gary that... and it just does not do anyone any good... take Melnyk up on his offer to look at the books... even if it is a PR move do it!! Otherwise you look foolish for not taking him up on his offer...
Well, that was not the claim was it?cleduc said:
Besides the law on successor employers would come into play. You cannot just shut down and start up again.
I don't really agree or disagree with either side but I am interesting in the immigration aspect and since you say you do this for a living heres a questionWetcoaster said:
What's to keep a player on a non-immigrant visa playing in a lower league from adjusting status now(getting work authorization and an I-512 before he is granting immigrant status) and then crossing if an impasse is declared? And also since you were a player agent how many players in the minors, AHL especially, do you think already have LPR status or Landed Immigrant status? Thanks for any info you can provide.
MarkZackKarl
Registered User
Ugh... Im tired about the small market cries!
Look at Ottawa and Vancouver and Calgary! Those markets are great... If the teams are good they will make money. Mlakar even admitted that the Sens were 9th in 'estimated revenues produced' or osmething last season, that that was their highest ranking ever etc.) The Canadian markets that are small is a red herring because of the sheer density of NHL and hockey fans in general in those markets. Like Calgayr, ok they have just over a million people right, but the hockey fan base is probably has high as 50 if not 60%! meaning they have a Potential market of like 500,000 fans who are either casually interested or 'die hard interested' in the Flames!
Then take a market like Miami, Atlanta or Tampa... lets say the potential market penetration there is like 20% and that is being extremely generous!!! Tampa has what 2.2 million so 20% of that is 440,000 or Miami at 3.5 million is 700,000... And this is being generous!
the small canadian markets are more like mid level hockey markets. As long as a CBA exists that allows for the mid market teams (and all teams can attain this level) to be able to develop a winner with fair odds, and not have to be lucked into a championship like the NHL is trying to do) then the league is fair.
The owners crying poverty will not cease, heck even in the Utopian NFL there are owners complaining about stadium deals, or season ticket bases... what makes anyone think that the NHL will stop whining? Sports owners lose all leverage if they dont complain.. .At best they just stay quiet.
A misguided and ignorant fan usually believes that ticket prices are based on costs, and thus, the players 'greedily demanding too much money from the owners using free market principles and willingness to pay nonwithstanding' are making me raise prices!! !Cause like its so obvious that the player costs are what are making me make you pay more!
If Gretzky in Phoenix came out and said 'yeah, we made 8.4 million in profit last season, but this year we're aiming for 12 million.... so we're gonna raise our average ticket price by 5.20 accross the board... do you really think that would go overwell with the fans in Arizona? Of course not! They have to cry poverty to use their leverage against the fans... otherwise their smokescreens are exposed.
Of course with the disgustingly inept hockey media that we are provided, and the unfortunate but hilarious fact that most people base their opinions on what the media tells them... even if they didnt cry poor they could probably still getaway with pulling the wool over the fans eyes.
Gross I tell ya!
Look at Ottawa and Vancouver and Calgary! Those markets are great... If the teams are good they will make money. Mlakar even admitted that the Sens were 9th in 'estimated revenues produced' or osmething last season, that that was their highest ranking ever etc.) The Canadian markets that are small is a red herring because of the sheer density of NHL and hockey fans in general in those markets. Like Calgayr, ok they have just over a million people right, but the hockey fan base is probably has high as 50 if not 60%! meaning they have a Potential market of like 500,000 fans who are either casually interested or 'die hard interested' in the Flames!
Then take a market like Miami, Atlanta or Tampa... lets say the potential market penetration there is like 20% and that is being extremely generous!!! Tampa has what 2.2 million so 20% of that is 440,000 or Miami at 3.5 million is 700,000... And this is being generous!
the small canadian markets are more like mid level hockey markets. As long as a CBA exists that allows for the mid market teams (and all teams can attain this level) to be able to develop a winner with fair odds, and not have to be lucked into a championship like the NHL is trying to do) then the league is fair.
The owners crying poverty will not cease, heck even in the Utopian NFL there are owners complaining about stadium deals, or season ticket bases... what makes anyone think that the NHL will stop whining? Sports owners lose all leverage if they dont complain.. .At best they just stay quiet.
A misguided and ignorant fan usually believes that ticket prices are based on costs, and thus, the players 'greedily demanding too much money from the owners using free market principles and willingness to pay nonwithstanding' are making me raise prices!! !Cause like its so obvious that the player costs are what are making me make you pay more!
If Gretzky in Phoenix came out and said 'yeah, we made 8.4 million in profit last season, but this year we're aiming for 12 million.... so we're gonna raise our average ticket price by 5.20 accross the board... do you really think that would go overwell with the fans in Arizona? Of course not! They have to cry poverty to use their leverage against the fans... otherwise their smokescreens are exposed.
Of course with the disgustingly inept hockey media that we are provided, and the unfortunate but hilarious fact that most people base their opinions on what the media tells them... even if they didnt cry poor they could probably still getaway with pulling the wool over the fans eyes.
Gross I tell ya!
Immigration law in the US and Canada is dead on straight forward on this issue.Smail said:If things were that simple, we wouldn't need lawyers. I think you should know this. Unless you're a poser.
Did you miss the quote from the Washington Capital's immigration lawyer who is the past president of AILA and one of the leading immigration specialists in the US?
Jonathan Avirom, managing partner of Avirom & Associates in New York City and is the former president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA). His firm specializes in every facet of immigration and in securing visas, including for entertainers and athletes. He has assisted hundreds of NHL players in securing work visas and has been immigration counsel to the Capitals for the last four years.
"The Department of Labor and Immigration under Homeland Security have always said that if there is a labor dispute, they would freeze the process."
Clear enough???
Poser??? You must have been in front of a mirror when you asked that.
scaredsensfan said:
Ya but Mlakar stated if they took the last players offer that they would lose money... even if they managed to keep there attendance as high as it was (9th)... do you not see why they would not want this deal?
Who goes into business to lose money? Why take a deal to guarantee you to lose money? Would you?
dakota said:
Perhaps....
But when MOST businesses attempt to "guarantee" profits, they usually have a business plan in place.
What the NHL is claiming is that they need Chemotherapy in order to control the cancer of "escalating Player Salaries" and shrinking Revenues.
What they are REFUSING to do is to REMOVE THE TUMOR. They don't even want to acknowledge that there IS a tumor.
The Owners have ADMITTED that THEY are to blame for the current state of the NHL. But they ALSO claim that "placing blame" is not going to solve anything, that it won't "help" the process.
Well, boys....
Until you IDENTIFY the problem, ACKNOWLEDGE the fact that it IS the problem, and then NEUTRALIZE that problem.....
You can't SOLVE the problem. All you're doing is subjecting the BODY to the ravages of Chemo, while leaving the TUMOR intact.
Gary Bettman, as Commissioner of the National Hockey League, has the right, (I would say that he has the solemn DUTY), to step in and veto ANY trade or signing which HE feels is detrimental to the League.
Where was Bettman when Yashin was signed to a 10 year, $90M contract?
Where was Bettman when the Ranger$ signed a third-line checking center to a long term $9.5M per year contract?
Where was Bettman THEN?
He's bullish on "cost certainty" NOW, on paying Players "what we can afford, no more - no less."
The Yashin contract was SO ridiculous that Charles Wang, (Isles Owner), couldn't even find an Insurance Company to cover the entire contract. It was a stretch to find an carrier for SEVEN years at those kinds of numbers, and he had to personally insure the final 3 years HIMSELF.
Where was Gary Bettman and his "cost certainty" in two of the MANY instances where he could have, SHOULD have, stepped in and said "Hey. You can't do that. That's just RIDICULOUS! Deals like THAT are going to hurt the League."?
Exisled said:
If he tried to do that I am sure Goodenow and the NHLPA would do everything in their power to stop him... so whose fault would it be then? Blaming Bettman for this is silly.
dakota said:
Goodenow and the NHLPA are doing "everything in their power" to stop Gary NOW.......it hasn't prevented Bettman from running roughshod over the League AND the fans. It hasn't stopped him from declaring that it will be HIS way, or NO way.
And if you're not going to blame Gary Bettman, then WHO do you "blame"?
Most fans blame the PLAYERS. Amazing.....
"That greedy Yashin. How DARE he be selfish enough to accept an offer for that kind of money when the Owners of Small Market Teams are losing money."
"Bobby Holik is a BASTID for stealing Jim Dolan's money. HE knows he's not worth that kind of scratch. Holik is the reason that we might LOSE Edmonton and Calgary!!!"
The upstanding and most honorable Mr. Bobby Clarke is VERY vocal in his support of Gary Bettman now. He's EQUALLY vocal in his lambasting of the "greedy" Players and the "misguided" Goodenow who are, in HIS opinion, ruining the game, and endangering the Small Market Teams.
He wasn't quite as vocal when he, (with the BLESSINGS and the BANKROLL of Mr. Ed Snider), was sucking up legions of these "greedy" Players, luring them away from Small Markets with gobs of cash, and carrying one of the highest Team Payroll's in the League.
Gary Bettman and the Owners keep insisting that "finger-pointing" is useless for ONE reason....
Because the FINGER is pointed DIRECTLY at THEM. And they KNOW it.
They will villify the Players, engage in a smear tactic campaign, and turn the FANS against the VERY "product" which MADE them $2.1B in the FIRST place.....
Simply to divert YOUR attention from the fact that they are NOT, after all, the poor "victims", but ARE, in fact, the PERPETRATORS.
The Owners are like a defendant on trial for sexual assualt, (or worse......don't believe the board filters will allow the PROPER term......), and are falling back on the defense of:
"Well....if she hadn't-a been a-wearin' that perty dress, with her stuff all a-hangin' out for ever-one to see, and flauntin' herself......I wouldn't-a been TEMPTED. It's all HER fault, yer Honour."
And the members of the jury, (the fans), sit back and nod sagely saying:
"You know, he's right. SHE is rather tempting, isn't she? Poor fella. He never stood a CHANCE against THAT. That girl is just an outright TEMPTRESS! Burn her at the stake, so she can NEVER tempt another poor helpless man again!"
SuperUnknown
Registered User
Wetcoaster said:Immigration law in the US and Canada is dead on straight forward on this issue.
Did you miss the quote from the Washington Capital's immigration lawyer who is the past president of AILA and one of the leading immigration specialists in the US?
Jonathan Avirom, managing partner of Avirom & Associates in New York City and is the former president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA). His firm specializes in every facet of immigration and in securing visas, including for entertainers and athletes. He has assisted hundreds of NHL players in securing work visas and has been immigration counsel to the Capitals for the last four years.
"The Department of Labor and Immigration under Homeland Security have always said that if there is a labor dispute, they would freeze the process."
Clear enough???
Poser??? You must have been in front of a mirror when you asked that.
They will freeze the process... So what? Doesn't mean that it can't be challenged. Was the law intention to apply in the case of business where the majority of the employees aren't americans? I don't think so. If not, then you can challenge it. The law was created to protect the american workers from being replaced by foreign labour. Not to protect foreign labour from being replaced by foreign labour... Obviously though, you just wear the lawyer's hat when you want to.
Besides, I'm not the one who will post old articles (and quotes) over and over again while they've been discussed and debunked (and for many, laughed at for being very bad pieces of journalism) to "support" whatever you say... It's a waste of time to argue with you since you will push the same old drivel time and time again. Why would anyone waste their time answering when they've answered in the past to the same ole thing. I know you're fairly new around, but some subjects have been beatten to death two years ago already...
SuperUnknown
Registered User
Exisled said:
The players are being blamed because they are stupid. The fans understand the resolve of the owners. Most fans in the spot of the players would have settled long ago and seen the money still rolling in. On the other hand, most fans in the spot of the owners would have held the hard line just like they do.
If your economic decision is "Settle at the start of year one, make $15B over the next 10 years" or "Fight until you kill the other side and win your deal, then make $13B over the next 10 years because you will have lost $2B over the first two years and lowered the league revenues thus your salaries", you're really stupid to pick #2, regardless of any other consideration.
The owners want their way or no way simply because they're in that position. If not having the league running instead of accepting a bad deal is better for them financially, why would they accept the bad deal? They'll just wait until they get a deal good enough to operate the league again. It's common sense. I don't doubt the players don't want an "owners good deal", but what choice do they have really? An "owners good deal" is still at least 8 times better than "no deal" for them. So their choice is either to accept a deal that's less favorable to them, with the thinking that next time around if the deal is really good for the owners they'll be able to take some bites back, or else to see their bank account go dry. It's really a heartbreaking dillemma.
Smail said:
And yet you still dont get it any more than the emasculated NHL lawyers seeking revenge and the arrogant vindictiveness of the sheltered billionaires in their power struggle. Because Owners can extort the players. The players are wrong not to give in. They should be selfish.
The drivel is the mainstrrem opinion that you spew that has been repeatedly laughed at and debunked by people who can think for themselves.
Exisled said:
Im fairly new here but I've been reading these threads for quite a while and I have to say that is one of the dumbest posts I have seen on here. You must be a player with nothing else to do but post on message boards trying to defend your position.
He cannot get a work visa to play in the NHL, that is prohibited absolutely. During the ECHL dispute any existing work permits were voided.arkady123 said:
There would be very few (if any) foreign national minor league players who are legal immigrants of either country. They would not qualify for the most part. In Canada they would be processed under the self-emplyed category and that is limited to elite players, not minor leaguers. Similar considerations apply in the US.
If a player did have an American spouse who petitioned for them they could apply to adjust status from within the US but they would almost certainly be denied re-entry if they played a game in Canada.
Hope that helps.
Smail said:
Who would challenge the law - a foreign national??? Not likely.
It is a straightforward prohibition - a statutory bar.
In Canada it is the same.
I provide facts and law along with quotes from legal experts. You provide uninformed opinion.
How am I "fairly new around"???? And even were it true so what?
You would be as wrong if I has been posting here for 5 years.
I get a charge out of the PA guys when they say this, everyone who disagrees with them is uninformed... :lol cracks me up...Wetcoaster said:
The owners have admitted they caused the problem(most of it) and are now trying to fix their mistakes...Goodenow and the agents drove salaries beyond reason, and now have to pay...end of story. Remember, it is the owners business, if the players want to become owners all they have to do is start writing cheques instead of cashing them...Exisled said:
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