nki's 2015 top 120 and scouting resource

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NikF

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Sep 24, 2006
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MATHEW BARZAL - VIDEO BREAKDOWN

I will be posting the breakdowns here since they stretch pages a lot and I want to keep the final ranking thread tidy. Will link them in both threads though.

The purpose of these breakdowns is to show where there might be room for improvement. I think we all know these guys are excellent prospects and there's no need to re-iterate a lot of the stuff that's already known. So I will mostly be focusing on the "concerns" or areas of improvement if you will.

With Barzal, he is really a pretty classic playmaking center. That's probably my first thought when I watch him play. We know about his vision, about his speed and overall mobility, about his puck-handling qualities, about his ability to jump into holes and play with intelligence. I will say that one thing that gets underrated with Barzal is his ability to strip the puck-carrier of the puck with his pokecheck. I think he is a bit underrated in that regard.

Now as to the room for improvement, or rather nitpicking things that bother me somewhat. :naughty: And let's be honest, the guys that I will do are all projected top 10 picks in a pretty strong draft, so you can to some extent call it nit-picking.

My concern for Barzal is two-fold. It's where his defensive ability (both through the level of his engagement, and to a bigger extent the fact that he will probably top out as a mid sized C and probably not a very strong/thick one at that beyond what is average) and his penchant for overhandling the puck, passing up shots, and skating himself through complex plays "from something into nothing", combine for the question as to whether he is a legit #1, a middle of the road "kind of" #1, or a #2C. And through that, for me the biggest question mark is - is this the player that can compete against the league's best centers and if not, where does that leave him? If the standard is winning the Cup, is then he a #2 on a Cup contender?

Disclaimer: It would be somewhat fair to say that part of the "fault" in these examples that follow could also easily be put on Barzal's linemates since they in general seem to be inconsistent in offering support and open options to Barzal, but to some degree you could say that for a lot of high-end prospects whose hockey IQ blows the rest of the junior team out of the water, Barzal might be more affected by that than others considering the style of play and the fact that he does not have a really high end offensive player on his team.

[collapse=barzal1]Let's start here. These two plays feature two of classic Barzal techniques. That are both excellent when they work and not so great when they don't. First two frames, you have a thing that Barzal loves to do all over the ice. That is he, likes to utilize his skates/cuts to throw off checking players. Looks like he's about to go outside, defenseman bites, changes his angle poof he squeezes around and he makes a play on the other end of the ice. No issue with that. Second play. Gets the puck, skates backwards towards the boards, lures in two players, dishes it off to an open man. Poof play made. No issue with that either.
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[collapse=barzal2]The thing with Barzal is that he does a lot of these plays really by barely getting them through, and sometimes he has the tendency to simply overdo it, which ends up backfiring on him. For example even the second play I've posted in the first picture, he could have probably dished it off before he skated himself completely out of room against the boards and also maintained forward momentum towards the net. But you can't argue with results and I'm nitpicking here. So let's take a look at almost an identical play from the same game where it doesn't end up working out for him. First frame gets the puck. Second frame again does excellently in changing the angle and throwing a player off. Third frame he now has a gap to make a play, but in fairness to Barzal, his linemate has barely reacted at all yet and has not opened up himself much so we'll excuse Barzal here since his linemate has effectively done nothing in all three frames. Fourth frame, his linemate finally reacts and opens himself up for a pass, and there's another one coming down the boards below the goal-line, so Barzal now has two passing options with a gap to make a play. But what ends up happening is he skates himself into the boards through overhandling.
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[collapse=barzal3]In fairness to Barzal, we are nitpicking here a little bit. I do think part of his struggles when this ends up happening to him is due to the fact that he doesn't exactly have a high-end offensive player to play with in Seattle. But I would not write it off entirely under the team factor. I do think there is a legitimate tendency for Barzal to overhandle and overcomplicate the play. Why do I think that? Because there are shifts where he legitimately does just that with no outside factors to account for. Enter next example. Here in the first two frames you will actually see Barzal utilizing a somewhat underrated quality of his, which is he is pretty decent at stripping pucks from players who don't pay attention. In the third frame, he really has nowhere to go since he has two defensemen standing up front of him (as visible in the next frame) and a checker strapped on his back. His linemate is turning and about to go into the offensive zone, so a good solution would be simply to dump the puck in his direction. But Barzal does one of his cuts again, and blocks himself in the neutral zone between two players and loses possession also with a linemate of his going the wrong direction of play. Not a big mistake, but it does show a bit of that tendency to overcomplicate things at times.
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[collapse=barzal4]Now, we've been somewhat nitpicky. But if there's a grand example that the "overhandle, overcomplicate, overpass" trifecta is a real thing is this one. There is just no way Barzal should have passed this shot up, but he did. And things like that do happen once in a while to everybody, but with Barzal if you watch him enough it does tend to happen a bit more regularly where that tends to be his M.O. a little bit, even though he is an excellent center prospect.
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[collapse=barzal5]And for me the biggest concern with Barzal's offensive game that is all-around outstanding and as close as you can get to a true playmaking center, is that the rate at which these plays where he skates himself from something into nothing, or skates himself into the boards, will increase at the next level. They might also decrease truth be told as he ends up playing with better players that get open more often. But it is something to look out for, as in where do you see him topping out offensively once you consider that he probably projects as average to decent defensively and whether that is enough to compete as a #1 C or is that a #2 or is that a kind of #1C but not that level where he's going to compete with a Toews, a Getzlaf, a Kopitar, a Bergeron or any of those big two-way forces. In this frame, he should have probably curled back to the point as he was "showing" in the first frame, but as much as it was a fake that threw #17 off, he also ended up skating himself into the boards with no room to make a play and lost the puck.
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[collapse=barzal6]Now here is probably the most interesting sequence. Especially since Barzal ends up scoring off this play, but I am really quite sceptical of this sequence playing out at the NHL level. Still you can use this one sequence both to show both positive qualities of Barzal as well as areas of improvement. First frame, you have Barzal with the puck, he has pretty much two points to pass to as all 5 opposing players are hemmed in relatively deep. But he curls back in towards the boards, ok not a big deal. So now he momentarily went from two options to zero options, but let's wait for his teammates to react. And they do in the third frame of the sequence, Barzal has an open option of passing it forward up the boards to a linemate that is getting open. But he does not, he curls back in again and splits the defense in half. Which is an amazing play by Barzal. But then he momentarily loses control of the puck. Draws in 3 players and finally passes to the point. His teammate shoots the puck from the point, there's a juicy rebound and Barzal cleans it up for a goal (from pretty far out). Now as much as that is an amazing junior play, I'm not 100% sure that he will be able to do that at the NHL level. Mainly don't see those two players being as incompetent as to commit as badly as they did in their angles and both at the same time. Nor do I see Barzal recovering from that loose puck without anyone getting a stick on it. To me this is both a positive yet someone questionable play as to the translatability of it. But as a whole it probably shows off both the amazing skill, skating and flair/creativity of Barzal as well as the fact that he sometimes plays on the "edge" of overhandling/overcomplicating plays. It does work a lot more often at the junior level that it might against NHL defensemen with their ability, positioning, skating and reach. But to Barzal's credit he will also have players who know how to get open better.
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[collapse=barzal7]Then we have a defensive play. One of the things that I really don't like is that centers have a lax body language or are gliding towards the blue-line if full control of the puck has not been established. But you could say that probably for a lot of junior centers. Now this is just one instance, Barzal is usually pretty good with his angles and pokecheck, but I would say that he's not really a very engaging puck-hound type of player.
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[collapse=barzal8]And the other thing is, he probably will never be that adept at playing against bigger forwards who have that reach and big "butt" to stick out and protect the puck. Which when you put those two factors together I think defensive upside of Barzal is probably somewhere between average to decent. He's not much of a hound or particularly physically adept at either winning board battles or battling against those players that turn their back to him. But he has good anticipation and puck-stripping qualities.
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Overall, once you draw the line under it all. Great player with little to no holes, the ones that he does have you do have to nitpick a bit to get at them. For me the question mark with Barzal is where does he fall on the scale from a legit #1 C that can compete against the league's best, a "kind of" #1 C that is maybe the top center on a good but not great team, a #1b/#2 on a Cup contender, or a #2 anywhere which would probably be his lower-end of the potential.
 
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NikF

Registered User
Sep 24, 2006
3,013
489
DYLAN STROME - VIDEO BREAKDOWN

In Strome's breakdown I will try to address his approach to the game, and hopefully through it some of the questions that were often raised on the prospects boards. One of the most common things I've read is that a lot of people who watched a game of Dylan said they simply weren't impressed, yet he somehow ended up with 3 points in the game. So that will be one of the things I will try to address as well as his performance in the playoffs that left a lot of people underwhelmed and hopefully come up with an answer as to why that might be the case.

I will be working under the assumption that you are somewhat familiar with Strome - he is big, playmaking center, with good vision and hands.

Two aspects I think that Strome is underrated in, is in his positioning for scoring chances as well as his shot. Even though he is a playmaker a lot of the positioning he does in order to obtain space for passing actually lends itself to being a scoring option as well, and he does score a lot off that position, but more on that later.

The interesting thing about Strome is that he is an off-the-puck playmaker. Now, that might sound confusing, how could someone make plays if he doesn't even have the puck? But the reality is, in Strome's case 90% of his assists are done before he even receives the puck, the pass is really just the final touch on what's already been established beforehand. And the way he produces is really by utilizing advanced off-the-puck anticipation and switching between 3 areas in accordance to his anticipation.

[collapse=strome1]The 3 areas that you will see Strome utilizing a lot, are in the picture. What Strome loves to do is he likes to have nobody behind his back and a complete over-view of every moving piece on the ice. He does that by positioning himself usually somewhat linear to the goal-post and creates from the edge of that scoring area in. Will also go behind the net and look to pass from there but is more rare for him to do that compared to doing it from the side. Now those 3 positions are really just one side of the equation. The second part of the equation is, that he chooses which area to go into on the basis of which one relates best to him creating a scoring chance, so that IF he gets the puck there, he has a wide open slot to pass into and moveable linemates moving into it. By the time he gets the puck in any of those 3 areas 90% of the scoring chance has already been created.
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[collapse=strome2]So let's start with this shift. Strome is really a very cerebral player in the way he processes the game. In this example, although the fact that Strome isn't the best skater in the world is well known, I do think part of his M.O. is simply not to be a very skating intensive player, you can tell as much through his body language. Here in the first two frames he has no issues giving up the footrace to the outside player. For example you might have thought that he would compete hard to establish a 2 on 1 or at least a 2 on 2 (while obviously not going offside), but he doesn't really go for that. In fact he drops behind all 4 of the players. And then goes behind the net (or into area 3 as in the first picture), as the puck moves around he then switches into area 2 or side of the net, as it fits the play. You will see that if the pass gets made to him while he's there, he has effectively the whole play in front of him and there he can utilize his vision to make the final pass. In one shift alone, he positions himself so that if the puck gets to him, he has a pass for a golden scoring chance. That's 3 potential scoring chances in one shift alone.
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[collapse=strome3]I'll give you more examples of the same thing. Here Strome goes into that position, right off faceoff. He does get the pass a bit late so he doesn't have as many options as he would if he received it earlier, but he still makes a pass to his teammate in the slot.
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[collapse=strome4]Here's another example. Although Strome really looks for pass first, he uses the same positioning for scoring opportunities and will sometimes shoot it himself if he has a good enough angle for a shot. In the 2nd frame here, he could have easily shot it but ends up passing it to his open linemate as seen is frame 3. In frame 4 and 5, he is again linear to the goal-post looking for that same positioning. And as you see once he gets the puck in frame 6, he pretty much has wide open space to pass into. Again nobody behind his back and the whole play moving in front of him, so that he can pick and choose as to what to do. In frame 8, he again is doing the same thing but switching areas. And in the last frame he again gets the puck and looks to make the play from the periphery in, although Sarnia does a slightly better job with coverage this time around. So again, in one shift alone he gets that position 3 times, where the scoring chance is already there or there is at least a good play to be made.
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[collapse=strome5]And here's more examples, all from one single game.
mIB3krf.png


Another.
sxmcBtN.png


Another, and not surprisingly he gets used in a similar manner on the powerplay.
v9ZyTMr.jpg
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[collapse=strome6]Here is his game in transition, which is somewhat similar to his approach in offensive zone. He tends to prefer to follow the puck carrier and make reads based off that (whether it's a drop pass, or by positioning himself into one of those 3 areas if his team establishes possession). Also likes to angle himself to the boards so that he can then make the plays from the periphery in with the moveable pieces all in front of him.
ndIak8p.jpg
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[collapse=strome7]Of course, there are downsides to his style as well. While his skating will alleviate some of these, I find his skating issues actually to be almost a complete afterthought in his game, I do think it will improve to average at least, nor is his style very skating-intensive to begin with. However yes, at this point in time, it does exacerbate some of the issues that naturally come up with his approach. One of the issues is, that if a pass isn't made to him, since he likes to position so linear to the goal-posts, he ends up caught deep into the offensive zone and the last man back into his own zone. The second issue is, he's not a very intense player to begin with, so with his approach there is a concern that he can end up going shifts with "nothing" happening if those passes to him aren't being made. His off-the-puck effort will likely have to improve, and he will probably have to start being more of a presence throughout as opposed to looking for that "soft spot" and let others do the dirty work of getting the puck to him. Is he engaging enough on the ice to compete with league's best centers?
JnexREJ.jpg
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[collapse=strome8]His skating is obviously part of the issue. But still, his body language in certain defensive aspects appears rather lax, but that goes for a lot of prospects. However, in combination with his offensive zone positioning he can end up behind the play sometimes.
1bdLSlj.png
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[collapse=strome9]Here is another classic situation that happens to a lot of young players. He over-anticipates offensive plays without his team having established puck-possession. In frames 2-5 he inexplicably skates away from the loose puck. even passing an opposing player that is about to engage in the very battle he is skating away from. He even gives him an anemic stick whack and then skates so far out that when his team does end up winning the puck, he is stuck behind everyone and his team loses possession again.
ajJTtph.jpg
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[collapse=strome10]Again, one of the things that happens to a lot of young players. Here his offensive positioning results in him being caught deep in the offensive zone and he's the last man back. By the time he comes into his zone, he is caught behind the play and he has to curl into the opposite direction of where the play is moving, but by the time he completes the curl, the play is again moving in the opposition direction of him. The worst play he probably makes there is that he inexplicably skates himself out of the picture completely. If you count from the first frame where he gets caught deep to the last frame where he finally obtains a position relevant to the play, it takes him full 14 seconds to catch up.
0RHctVm.jpg
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[collapse=strome11]And another thing with Strome is, that for a big guy, right now he is relatively easy to play against in his own zone. He's not exactly engaging, not that good at pinning people down and not that good in tightening the gap, leaves as much room for forwards to operate against him as smaller players would.
qNaC1qY.png
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So all in all, for me the question with Strome is whether he has it in himself to be engaging enough to compete with the league's best centers. I think skating is an issue right now, but I'm not concerned with that. Basically he is going to have to be a bit more engaging overall, from his own zone to the offensive zone.

In regard to people saying that they are not impressed with him and yet he ends up with 3 points in the game. The reason for that I think, is that a large percentage of his production is due to his off-the-puck instincts. Skating and puck-handling intensive prospects tend to be more easily noticeable. Where by the time Strome receives the puck, 90% of the scoring chance is already completed.

What happened in the playoffs, where you could say his play hasn't held up as well? I think the problem right now is that he is so cerebrally inclined that when the pace and the intensity gets ramped up, he ends up in a loop where he is constantly re-assessing his position as it relates to the flow of the play, and by the time he manages to obtain what he thinks will be beneficial to creating a scoring chance, the play has already moved on. Visually it ends up looking as if he is doing "nothing", because his approach to the game is so excessively thinking/reads intensive. And the skating issues make that look even worse when it's not going well.
 

NikF

Registered User
Sep 24, 2006
3,013
489
Mitchell Marner - Video Breakdown

I'd like to apologize for the spelling mistakes in paint, I was a bit tired and was really aiming more at the hockey side than paying attention to what I was typing. Should be easy to understand hockey-wise though.

Already ranked as the 3rd best F in the draft on my ranking and 4th overall, it was somewhat surprising to see just how in-depth Marner's impact goes when dissecting a couple of his shifts. Obviously, we know all about his skill and playmaking vision and an admirable compete level. But the interplay between his timing, angles, and gear changes allows him to be a consistent factor on the ice in all elements outside of pure physicality maybe. And once you break it down, Marner's weakness really is the fact that he is very thin and very physically immature. Even once he fills out, it's doubtful whether his frame-size can really hold much weight at all. The calculation you need to make is whether his top-end ability turns out to be high enough to displace the lack of size, which will undoubtedly limit him in instances where a big heavy grinding team establishes controlled possession in his own zone. He has a good stick, reads, and compete level, but it would probably be pretty unlikely that he could strip a 6'3 220lbs center of the puck once he turns his back against him.

I have added the text into picture-frames, so that it is easier to follow. Keep in mind, a lot of these long sequences are basically one shift of Marner, his ability to do so many beneficial things in one shift alone is really high. And for me, despite the lack of size, he ends up as the 3rd best ranked forward in the draft on the account of that ability, although I don't think he has a big lead on the rest of the available high-end Fs. Another thing worth pointing out is that Guelph got badly blown out of this game, so it was a really terrible game for them overall.

We will start with a sequence that shows off Marner's overall game sense.
[collapse=marner1]
rgFhUdg.jpg

F2APzGE.jpg

FIrAC3i.jpg

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Marner shows some puck-hound ability but the sequence really shows how good he is in establishing a position that is relevant to the play through his timing, gear changes, and angles/routes.
[collapse=marner2]
eIhKKnR.jpg

LsQKe4v.jpg

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More Marner reads and playmaking vision.
[collapse=marner3]
IFgjCy3.jpg

fHmoBXi.jpg

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Another shift that shows off Marner's overall ability
[collapse=marner4]
2u6JAVk.jpg

FDCs7H8.jpg

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Off-the-puck defensive angles
[collapse=marner5]
HR1Xrse.jpg

8rGwiBs.jpg

[/collapse]

Defense to transition
[collapse=marner6]
DTDUikY.jpg

[/collapse]

Forechecking reads
[collapse=marner7]
QU0sUDq.jpg

6fJJEgh.jpg

[/collapse]
 
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NikF

Registered User
Sep 24, 2006
3,013
489
I read earlier you were going to do a profile for Radovan Bondra, did he end up just not making the cut?

That's correct. I'll also take this opportunity to thank everyone again for the support throughout the year, but I will not be able to provide any information anymore, as I will continue my work in a different capacity. So this is pretty much my last post on this, thanks again everyone and enjoy the draft!
 

HonestHockey*

Guest
Mitchell Marner - Video Breakdown

I'd like to apologize for the spelling mistakes in paint, I was a bit tired and was really aiming more at the hockey side than paying attention to what I was typing. Should be easy to understand hockey-wise though.

Already ranked as the 3rd best F in the draft on my ranking and 4th overall, it was somewhat surprising to see just how in-depth Marner's impact goes when dissecting a couple of his shifts. Obviously, we know all about his skill and playmaking vision and an admirable compete level. But the interplay between his timing, angles, and gear changes allows him to be a consistent factor on the ice in all elements outside of pure physicality maybe. And once you break it down, Marner's weakness really is the fact that he is very thin and very physically immature. Even once he fills out, it's doubtful whether his frame-size can really hold much weight at all. The calculation you need to make is whether his top-end ability turns out to be high enough to displace the lack of size, which will undoubtedly limit him in instances where a big heavy grinding team establishes controlled possession in his own zone. He has a good stick, reads, and compete level, but it would probably be pretty unlikely that he could strip a 6'3 220lbs center of the puck once he turns his back against him.

I have added the text into picture-frames, so that it is easier to follow. Keep in mind, a lot of these long sequences are basically one shift of Marner, his ability to do so many beneficial things in one shift alone is really high. And for me, despite the lack of size, he ends up as the 3rd best ranked forward in the draft on the account of that ability, although I don't think he has a big lead on the rest of the available high-end Fs. Another thing worth pointing out is that Guelph got badly blown out of this game, so it was a really terrible game for them overall.

We will start with a sequence that shows off Marner's overall game sense.
[collapse=marner1]
rgFhUdg.jpg

F2APzGE.jpg

FIrAC3i.jpg

[/collapse]

Marner shows some puck-hound ability but the sequence really shows how good he is in establishing a position that is relevant to the play through his timing, gear changes, and angles/routes.
[collapse=marner2]
eIhKKnR.jpg

LsQKe4v.jpg

[/collapse]

More Marner reads and playmaking vision.
[collapse=marner3]
IFgjCy3.jpg

fHmoBXi.jpg

[/collapse]

Another shift that shows off Marner's overall ability
[collapse=marner4]
2u6JAVk.jpg

FDCs7H8.jpg

[/collapse]

Off-the-puck defensive angles
[collapse=marner5]
HR1Xrse.jpg

8rGwiBs.jpg

[/collapse]

Defense to transition
[collapse=marner6]
DTDUikY.jpg

[/collapse]

Forechecking reads
[collapse=marner7]
QU0sUDq.jpg

6fJJEgh.jpg

[/collapse]

In this game alone it has to be noted that every Guelph breakout came out Marners side and easily.
 

Curufinwe

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
55,779
42,844
That's correct. I'll also take this opportunity to thank everyone again for the support throughout the year, but I will not be able to provide any information anymore, as I will continue my work in a different capacity. So this is pretty much my last post on this, thanks again everyone and enjoy the draft!

If that means you got a job scouting you deserve it. Thanks for all the great analysis. :handclap:
 

Henderson19

Registered User
Jul 6, 2007
670
10
That's correct. I'll also take this opportunity to thank everyone again for the support throughout the year, but I will not be able to provide any information anymore, as I will continue my work in a different capacity. So this is pretty much my last post on this, thanks again everyone and enjoy the draft!

If that means you got a job scouting you deserve it. Thanks for all the great analysis. :handclap:

nki, if this does mean you found employment in a scouting role, MAJOR congratulations! Your gift to us was a gift of love and passion. And if it translated into a paying gig for you, hats off and onto the ice!

Cheers!
 

Kearns

Too good to be true, no?
Jun 7, 2008
360
216
Kamloops, BC
This is an amazing resource. The hours that must go into it, yikes. Hopefully its a jumping off point to a paid gig.

I have a general question for readers here. Does anyone know of a ranking or list of top prospects for this year that includes the players' birth dates?
 

JJ McCubbin

Registered User
Apr 15, 2014
477
29
This is an amazing resource. The hours that must go into it, yikes. Hopefully its a jumping off point to a paid gig.

I have a general question for readers here. Does anyone know of a ranking or list of top prospects for this year that includes the players' birth dates?

The ISS top 30 includes birth dates. I remember seeing a longer list with DOBs at some point but unfortunately can't find it now. Hope this helps:
http://www.isshockey.com/iss-top-30/

nki, thanks a lot for all your hard work in this topic. It's a great read and the level of detail is excellent.

EDIT: Found the list of DOBs:
http://www.eliteprospects.com/draft...yout=info&ranking=&nation=&sort=&league=&con=
 
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Kearns

Too good to be true, no?
Jun 7, 2008
360
216
Kamloops, BC

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,075
33,132
For what it's worth, from this list the Jets selected:

#9 Kyle Connor
#19 Jansen Harkins
#45 Jack Roslovic
#64 Erik Foley
#82 Michael Spacek
 

Caesium

Registered User
Apr 13, 2006
7,525
184
Toronto selections:

4. Mitchell Marner
20. Travis Dermott
39. Jeremy Bracco
62. Andrew Nielsen
65. Nikita Korostelev
71. Stephen Desrocher
104. Jesper Lindgren
N/R Martins Dzierkals
N/R Dmytro Timashov
 

enj92

Registered User
Oct 2, 2015
366
19
Ufa
Bumping the thread. It would be amazing to read such a great analysis from respected user nki about 2016 draft eligible players. :)
 

Woodhouse

Registered User
Dec 20, 2007
15,525
1,754
New York, NY
Bumping the thread. It would be amazing to read such a great analysis from respected user nki about 2016 draft eligible players. :)

Seconded. Really enjoyed reading your analysis last year.
You two obviously missed this bit:
That's correct. I'll also take this opportunity to thank everyone again for the support throughout the year, but I will not be able to provide any information anymore, as I will continue my work in a different capacity. So this is pretty much my last post on this, thanks again everyone and enjoy the draft!
 
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