Nicklas Lidstrom vs Doug Harvey

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You also have to factor in that Doug Harvey, during the fifties, played against the other teams best offensive players during the playoffs and was instrumental in shutting them down.

This is true, but it doesn't seperate Harvey from Lidstrom.

Lidstrom (to date)
Norris-7
NHL 1st Team-11
NHL 2nd Team-2
Conn Smythe-1
All Rookie Team 1st

Harvey
Conn Smythe-0
Norris-7
NHL 1st Team-10
NHL 2nd Team-1
All Rookie Team (didn't exist at the time but its safe to say he wouldn't of made it)

Lidstrom has a more All Stars than Bobby Orr too - doesn't make him better. Conn Smythe didn't exist when Harvey played.

Edit: I think Trophy-counting has its place, but not when talking about guys of this calibre who were clearly the best of their respective eras.

 

[danincanada]

Excellent summary. Since I hold Bourque over Lidstrom, Ill add my past comments regarding Harvey vs Bourque as to why I take Harvey over him

Your points regarding Harvey could apply to Lidstrom as well though. I still don't see how Bourque gets ranked in between those two by most when Harvey and Lidstrom's careers mirror each other as much as they do.

The only difference I see is that Lidstrom played in a more advanced league with a much larger talent pool to pick from. This of course is always ignored so I should find some blinders to wear as well so I can stop bringing it up.

 

[danincanada]

You also have to factor in that Doug Harvey, during the fifties, played against the other teams best offensive players during the playoffs and was instrumental in shutting them down.

Harvey shut down those world class Canadian forwards of the 50's.

Lidstrom had to shut down world class international fowards, including Canadians, from the 90's up until now.

I know which one I think is more impressive.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm interested in the oft-cited similarity in their team situations. Which player was more impactful in his team's regular-season and playoff success? Who had more support, offensive and defensive, from his partners and forwards?

 

[lolwut]

This is true, but it doesn't seperate Harvey from Lidstrom.



Lidstrom has a more All Stars than Bobby Orr too - doesn't make him better. Conn Smythe didn't exist when Harvey played.

Edit: I think Trophy-counting has its place, but not when talking about guys of this calibre who were clearly the best of their respective eras.

Obviously that would not be a fair comparison Lidstrom played many more seasons than Orr. Harvey on the other hand has a near identical amount. I would think that would make comparing 1st/2nd teams a valid comparison.
My bad on the Conn Smythe, didn't exist till Harvey's career was winding down.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Defensive Numbers

This is true, but it doesn't seperate Harvey from Lidstrom.



Lidstrom has a more All Stars than Bobby Orr too - doesn't make him better. Conn Smythe didn't exist when Harvey played.

Edit: I think Trophy-counting has its place, but not when talking about guys of this calibre who were clearly the best of their respective eras.

But it does when you factor in another detail.

Usually when a player concentrates on his defensive game his offensive production goes down.

Upthread it was shown that Harvey offensive production went up over 46%.

Now let`s look at Nicklas Lidstrom:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lidstni01.html

Lidstrom offensive production during the playoffs goes down very slightly

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lidstni01.html

to just below the .74 PPG level he shows during the regular season.

If we look at the offensive numbers of Claude Provost and Henri Richard during their years with the Canadiens they are down during the playoffs because the two were given the toughest defensive assignments.

Conversely during the years Henri Richard played with Doug Harvey his offensive numbers during the playoffs were nearly identical with his regular season numbers.

When you combine the Harvey to Lidstrom comparison on a PPG basis - Harvey outscores Lidstrom in the playoffs on a PPG comparison, .082 to .074, and the impact on other players on the Canadiens with/without Harvey there is little doubt.

This definitely shows the superiority of Doug Harvey to Nicklas Lidstrom.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Harvey shut down those world class Canadian forwards of the 50's.

Lidstrom had to shut down world class international fowards, including Canadians, from the 90's up until now.

I know which one I think is more impressive.

And yet, all the best players in the world were crammed on to 6 teams, despite the fact that many players in the minors could easily have been top NHL players had spots been open. At this point in history, Non-NHL Canadian amateurs were wiping the floor with international competition.

If you took the top Canadian and American Forwards, Defensemen, roleplayers and goalies from the modern league and crammed them on to 6 teams and sent them into a 70 game season, then you have a better idea of the type of competition the 60's had. Throw in that rivalries and hating of players, and coaching adjusting comes much more into play like modern playoffs when you constantly play the same people

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm interested in the oft-cited similarity in their team situations. Which player was more impactful in his team's regular-season and playoff success? Who had more support, offensive and defensive, from his partners and forwards?

Harvey is cited as being the reason the Canadiens forwards were allowed to play "firewagon hockey."

When, inevitably, Harvey got hold of the puck, opponents feared his passing touch and peeled back. The Canadiens' forwards, secure in the knowledge that Harvey would be beaten very rarely, were afforded the luxury of hanging higher in the defensive zone or even lurking in neutral ice. Harvey's natural skills bought him more room and, unimpeded by forecheckers (Harvey would quickly lose anyone who challenged him), he was free to bring the puck up ice. "He was like a big glider moving with the puck," remembered television analyst Howie Meeker, a veteran of the Harvey era. "He controlled the play so well, his forwards could cheat."

-Canadiens Captains, Michael Ulmer

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If you took the top Canadian and American Forwards, Defensemen, roleplayers and goalies from the modern league and crammed them on to 6 teams and sent them into a 70 game season, then you have a better idea of the type of competition the 60's had. Throw in that rivalries and hating of players, and coaching adjusting comes much more into play like modern playoffs when you constantly play the same people

I don't think there were any noteworthy American players at the time, were there?

 

[danincanada]

And yet, all the best players in the world were crammed on to 6 teams, despite the fact that many players in the minors could easily have been top NHL players had spots been open. At this point in history, Non-NHL Canadian amateurs were wiping the floor with international competition.

If you took the top Canadian and American Forwards, Defensemen, roleplayers and goalies from the modern league and crammed them on to 6 teams and sent them into a 70 game season, then you have a better idea of the type of competition the 60's had. Throw in that rivalries and hating of players, and coaching adjusting comes much more into play like modern playoffs when you constantly play the same people

If you took the best Canadians now and made a 6 team league look at how many great players would be missing. No Chara, no Karlsson, no Lidstrom. Now put some sort of accomodation for the reduction of people even playing hockey in Canada back then when compared to now and that is the NHL Harvey played in.

The talent pool is much deeper now and the cream of the crop is better. All logic points to it no matter how often people try to deny it here. It's sooooo obvious.

 

[lolwut]

But it does when you factor in another detail.

Usually when a player concentrates on his defensive game his offensive production goes down.

Upthread it was shown that Harvey offensive production went up over 46%.

Now let`s look at Nicklas Lidstrom:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lidstni01.html

Lidstrom offensive production during the playoffs goes down very slightly

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lidstni01.html

to just below the .74 PPG level he shows during the regular season.

If we look at the offensive numbers of Claude Provost and Henri Richard during their years with the Canadiens they are down during the playoffs because the two were given the toughest defensive assignments.

Conversely during the years Henri Richard played with Doug Harvey his offensive numbers during the playoffs were nearly identical with his regular season numbers.

When you combine the Harvey to Lidstrom comparison on a PPG basis - Harvey outscores Lidstrom in the playoffs on a PPG comparison, .082 to .074, and the impact on other players on the Canadiens with/without Harvey there is little doubt.

This definitely shows the superiority of Doug Harvey to Nicklas Lidstrom.

You have to keep in mind back when Harvey played you only had to play about half as many post season games to win a cup. If you look at years when Lidstrom was also playing about 10-12 postseason games his ppg also increased vs his regular season.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Thanks for posting, Dark Shadows. Especially since I mentioned you by name in the post.



I don't think this is true, actually. Red Kelly was dominating the All Star voting for several years prior to the first Norris.

You may be right.

Why do you think Gadsby was better than Leetch, Stevens, or MacInnis? Regardless, I do think it is noteworthy that other defensemen like Leetch were able to beat out Ray Bourque on occasion, while Gadsby wasn't ever really close to beating out Harvey except the season Harvey was injured.

Perhaps not Macinnis. I made that post awhile ago when I was a bit peeved Gadsby did not finish higher on the vote.

However, I do believe Gadsby is underrated based on what I saw of him. Nobody was going to Beat out Harvey for most of those Norris trophies short of Bobby Orr, Eddie Shore or Ray Bourque in his absolute best year. I compare it favorably to Brad Park being unable to win a Norris 4 times to a prime Bobby Orr. Just nobody was going to do it.

A good post about Gadsby from the original HOH top 100 project

Sorry to butt in, but i'm very disappointed that Bill Gadsby is not eligible for voting. Gadsby played against Doug Harvey and Red Kelly during the prime of their careers,and was consistently on par or close to their level of production while playing on much worse teams. During the 1950's each player played all ten season and here's how their statistics match up.

Player|GP|G|A|P|AvgG|AvgA|AvgP|D scoring|1stAS|2ndAS|Norris|1stRnd|2ndRnd
Kelly|677|145|273|418|15|28|43|1,1,1,1,1,2,2,3,4|6|2|1,2,2,3|9|5
Harvey|676|57|300|357|6|31|37|1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5|7|1|1,1,1,1,2,4|10|9
Gadsby|637|77|266|343|9|29|38|1,1,1,2,2,2,6,6|3|3|2,2,2,4|4|0

The numbers are close between the 3, and Gadsby, while playing on inferior teams was not a huge step behind the two defensemen already ranked in the top 20. If you look into the 1960's Gadsby racked up another four top five finishes in scoring and was a finalist for the Norris trophy once more.

 

[danincanada]

But it does when you factor in another detail.

Usually when a player concentrates on his defensive game his offensive production goes down.

Upthread it was shown that Harvey offensive production went up over 46%.

Now let`s look at Nicklas Lidstrom:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lidstni01.html

Lidstrom offensive production during the playoffs goes down very slightly

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lidstni01.html

to just below the .74 PPG level he shows during the regular season.

If we look at the offensive numbers of Claude Provost and Henri Richard during their years with the Canadiens they are down during the playoffs because the two were given the toughest defensive assignments.

Conversely during the years Henri Richard played with Doug Harvey his offensive numbers during the playoffs were nearly identical with his regular season numbers.

When you combine the Harvey to Lidstrom comparison on a PPG basis - Harvey outscores Lidstrom in the playoffs on a PPG comparison, .082 to .074, and the impact on other players on the Canadiens with/without Harvey there is little doubt.

This definitely shows the superiority of Doug Harvey to Nicklas Lidstrom.

This is your basis for showing how "superior" Harvey was to Lidstrom?

Playoff Careers:

Lidstrom GP 258 G 54 A 129 Pts 183 PIM 76

Harvey GP 137 G 8 A 64 Pts 72 PIM 152

These stats, of course, are at face value but Harvey sure doesn't look superior to me. Looks like Harvey produced less offense (only 8 goals?) and took a lot more penalties.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The talent pool is much deeper now and the cream of the crop is better. All logic points to it no matter how often people try to deny it here. It's sooooo obvious.

The talent pool is deeper but it does not logically follow that it means the cream of the crop is better. The truly elite players are outliers.

 

[overpass]

If you took the best Canadians now and made a 6 team league look at how many great players would be missing. No Chara, no Karlsson, no Lidstrom. Now put some sort of accomodation for the reduction of people even playing hockey in Canada back then when compared to now and that is the NHL Harvey played in.

The talent pool is much deeper now and the cream of the crop is better. All logic points to it no matter how often people try to deny it here. It's sooooo obvious.

How do you know fewer Canadians played hockey back then?

 

[tarheelhockey]

The talent pool is deeper but it does not logically follow that it means the cream of the crap is better.

Devil, you have really got to get that autocorrect fixed.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Thought a lot about this during the downtime and I think the main reasons I end up with Harvey #2 are his control and his defense.

As Devil noted already, Doug's puck possession and control of the game is unrivaled until Orr came along and imo no one has rivaled either level since.

His defense is perfect. Yes Lidstrom's defense is also perfect but the thing is, Lidstrom was taught to play that way on the concepts that Harvey pioneered.
Who taught Harvey...Harvey did.
Not to mention that unlike Lidstrom, Harvey could successfully play physically when finesse and positioning wasn't enough.

 

[Sens Rule]

Defenseman historically get shafted in Hart Trophy voting. And I wasn't alive when Harvey played. Or when Eddie Shore played. But I have read al its every thread in the History section on these boards. Hundreds of hockey books and articles.

Here is my argument:

Orr was the best player in the world after his rookie season until he stopped playing. He should have 8 or 9 Harts not 3.

Eddie Shore has 3 Harts and was widely regarded by almost everyone of his era and in hindsight that for most of his career he was the best player in the NHL or the world.

I think Kelly and far moreso Harvey get shafted in voting or respect both contemporilly... Or in hindsight.

I will say with all I have read and understood. I think after Howe's peak years in early 50's Harvey was the best player in the world... The very best in 5 straight Cup teams... The greatest dynasty ever. At Harvey's best he was better then Rocket or Geoffrion or Beliveau. I think he was the best player in the world for 5 or 6 years and his peak after he exceeded Kelly around 53 or 54 was far better then every other defenseman. Not like Bourque exceeding Chelios... Like Hasek in his Hart years exceeding other goalies... Or Mario or Gretzky exceeding other forwards. He was that much better then other D-men... And not for a year or two but for 6 or 8 seasons.

So best player on the planet for 5-7 years and best defenseman by a Wide margin for 7 or 8... Kelly was close at start of that run or it would be a decade.

So I rank them like this:

Orr
Shore
Harvey

Bourque
Lidstrom
Potvin

Best player in the world:
First half of 50's Howe
Second half Harvey.

Bourque, Lidstrom, Potvin were never the best player in the world clearly for years. Harvey was... He outranks them... Who cares if the league had 6 teams or that 90% were Canadian? He was the best player on the planet for a significant number of consecutive years... That crushes being on of the best in a deeper league in my estimation.

Posted from
My phone! Sorry for typos!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Devil, you have really got to get that autocorrect fixed.

DAMN YOU AUTO-CORRECT!

I think I'm leaving the post as is. It's funnier this way.

 

[pluppe]

But it does when you factor in another detail.

Usually when a player concentrates on his defensive game his offensive production goes down.

Upthread it was shown that Harvey offensive production went up over 46%.

Now let`s look at Nicklas Lidstrom:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lidstni01.html

Lidstrom offensive production during the playoffs goes down very slightly

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lidstni01.html

to just below the .74 PPG level he shows during the regular season.

If we look at the offensive numbers of Claude Provost and Henri Richard during their years with the Canadiens they are down during the playoffs because the two were given the toughest defensive assignments.

Conversely during the years Henri Richard played with Doug Harvey his offensive numbers during the playoffs were nearly identical with his regular season numbers.

When you combine the Harvey to Lidstrom comparison on a PPG basis - Harvey outscores Lidstrom in the playoffs on a PPG comparison, .082 to .074, and the impact on other players on the Canadiens with/without Harvey there is little doubt.

This definitely shows the superiority of Doug Harvey to Nicklas Lidstrom.

Bolded is false. It only has Harveys stats from the Cup wins. Lidström comfortably beats him for career. if you give Harvey extra credit for this you should also ask the question why his stats for the other years are so poor points wise.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This is your basis for showing how "superior" Harvey was to Lidstrom?

Playoff Careers:

Lidstrom GP 258 G 54 A 129 Pts 183 PIM 76

Harvey GP 137 G 8 A 64 Pts 72 PIM 152

These stats, of course, are at face value but Harvey sure doesn't look superior to me. Looks like Harvey produced less offense (only 8 goals?) and took a lot more penalties.

Come on Dan. You know better than to use raw stats to compare players from entirely different eras. If someone used raw stats to show how much better Bourque was offensively than Lidstrom, you'd cry fowl, right?

 

[steveott]

logical ending

Bourque, Lidstrom, Potvin were never the best player in the world clearly for years. Harvey was... He outranks them... Who cares if the league had 6 teams or that 90% were Canadian? He was the best player on the planet for a significant number of consecutive years... That crushes being on of the best in a deeper league in my estimation.

lets say that LONG TIME AGO there was just one hockey player. He was the VERY BEST of all those years he was playing. He dominated like no tomorrow.

Who cares if the league had only 1 player or that 100% were Canadian? He was the best player on the planet for a significant number of consecutive years... That crushes being on of the best in a deeper league in my estimation.


(The talent pool is deeper now but it does not logically follow that it means the cream of the crap is better. The truly elite players are outliers.)

 

[Rhiessan71]

lets say that LONG TIME AGO there was just one hockey player. He was the VERY BEST of all those years he was playing. He dominated like no tomorrow.

Who cares if the league had only 1 player or that 100% were Canadian? He was the best player on the planet for a significant number of consecutive years... That crushes being on of the best in a deeper league in my estimation.


(The talent pool is deeper now but it does not logically follow that it means the cream of the crap is better. The truly elite players are outliers.)

BINGO!!!
We have a winner folks

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Speaking to how Harvey changed the way defensemen played the game:

From The Hockey News - The Top 100 Hockey Players of All-Time:

He was the contrarian who found a bet ter way and while his recklessness would darken the latter chapters of his life, Harvey did what few dare to dream-he improved the way the game of hockey was played.

** *When Harvey entered the league in 1947, the style of the day was to drop the forwards back in support of the two defensemen. Harvey's gifts were so unique - he was superb at stealing the puck off an attacker and even better at keeping it - backchecking forwards were largely redundant.
Harvey instructed his forwards to stay high. When he got the puck, he refused to lug it up ice. Instead, he would drift near his own net, attracting a forechecker or two, before laying a perfect pass on the stick of a teammate to ignite a Montreal attack.

** *"He had a great ability to trap the : team's forwards," remembered longtime Montreal teammate and Boston Bruins' executive Tom Johnson. "He would draw them in and then put the puck by them"

** *It was an heretical style. Fans and media thought Harvey looked lazy. One newspaperman dubbed him 'Dawdling Doug.' Canadiens' coach Dick Irvin con stantly fretted Harvey would end up surrendering the puck near his own net, but the results were so obviously worth the risk that Harvey's way won the day.

** *Harvey passed with the grace of an elite forward. "He could have played center, could have played left wing, he could have played goal," Johnson said. "There was no part of the game he couldn't do."

** *A 10-time first team all-star, Harvey led all defensemen in points three times and assists five times, including 1954-55 wh he earned a record 43 assists.

** *Harvey was the backbone of a Montreal power play that was so devastating, league officials decided in 1956 to change the rules and allow a player to return to the ice if his team surrendered a power play goal.

One thing that does get overlooked about Harvey is he is not the best leader and was often a nightmare for management.

I've read a few places he was constantly late for practices, and he may have been a full-fledged alcoholic already in the 50s. It was not just his affiliation with the Player's Union that got him traded away from Montreal while still in his prime.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Speaking to how Harvey changed the way defensemen played the game:



One thing that does get overlooked about Harvey is he is not the best leader and was often a nightmare for management.

I've read a few places he was constantly late for practices, and he may have been a full-fledged alcoholic already in the 50s. It was not just his affiliation with the Player's Union that got him traded away from Montreal while still in his prime.

Or was it? Unless you actually have some proof of what you are alleging here, it's a good bet EVERYTHING was a result of his Union affiliations.
It was a dirty, dirty time back then and NOTHING was out of bounds for those owners.