That's not even what happened. You claimed Harvey had more PIMs because he fought so I asked specifically how many fights was he in, as in you know, "how many", "how much", "a quantity", and you proceeded to go ballistic and listed all his credentials as a fighter and his history in a long and unnecessary tirade. Then questioned if I really read the book. It was a very strange exchange but now your account of it has completed changed from reality.
Nope, I have always been in the right reality.
I figured out right from the beginning that you were testing me to see if I had read the book and I turned it around on you.
You didn't like that and threw a bit of a hissy.
That's the reality I was in and played it that way exactly.
Stan Mikita? His first AS nomination was the same season Harvey had his last. Mikita and Hull were 16 and 15 years younger than Harvey. It's not what you're trying to sell here.
And Crosby is 17 years younger than Lidstrom, what's your point?
Did Lidstrom face Crosby or not?
Whether it's Mikita or someone else, the point is that Harvey, even when facing the last place teams in the O6, was still facing higher quality opponents on a nightly basis than Lidstrom was.
Again,
9 expansion teams and a serious have/have not payroll disparity among the other 21 teams during Lidstrom's career.
There's nothing to debate about this, it's simply fact.
Besides, Harvey only having to face a small group of Canadian defenders is simply far more beneficial to his AS and Norris record and how he is viewed overall. The other defenders of his time had to play against the same forwards over and over again as well, except Harvey was on the most stacked team, other than the Red Wings some seasons, and he had 7 time Vezina winner Plante behind him most years. Again, it's simply not what you're trying to submit here.
Just like Lidstrom facing a weak and inconsistent peer group allowed him to win 7 Norris. He doesn't even win half of them playing at any other time in history.
Seems like you have "forgotten" again that Lidstrom played on one of the most stacked teams of his own era.
Despite Harvey being on a stacked team, there was still a hell of a lot less of a gap between his team and say the last place Hawks than Lidstrom and his stacked team playing the last place Isles/Preds/Thrashers/Lightning.
I didn't just use raw (straight?) numbers, I used adjusted as well and team finishes. They all have Lidstrom comfortably ahead.
It doesn't matter what you use because Dmen produced offense, especially goals, completely different than they do today or have since the 70's.
No slapshot and no rushing the puck, end of story.
However!
When Dmen back then were permitted to get involved with the offense and take some chances was on the powerplay. Harvey dominated his peers on the powerplay.
Harvey was as effective offensively at ES as Tim Horton, and trailed Kelly but a wide margin, and trailed Gadsby and Pronovost. He made all of his gains on the PP and in their primes Lidstrom was actually higher up his peer rankings in ES points than Harvey. You can refuse to believe whatever you want. You seem to be refusing to believe that Harvey is more guilty of relying on the PP than Lidstrom even though you criticized the former of this at length over the years.
Of course Harvey relied on the PP for most of his points, all Dmen back then did. It was the only time they were allowed to play offense back then.
And again, when allowed to play offense, no one could keep up with Harvey, not even Kelly.
Do you not realize how ridiculous this sounds? Look at the impact the non-Canadians have had on AS nominations and awards and all the other accolades over the years. Then you turn around and require evidence that they've increased the number of elite players in the league with that in mind? There's clearly no argument to be made here by you. Lidstrom is a prime example of what having elite non-Canadians does to the landscape of the league.
And it still didn't make Lidstrom's peer group any stronger during his 7 Norris, just more diverse.
There aren't more truly Elite players. Year after year after year after year it's still only a couple of players that stand out above everyone else. Sometimes there's one more, sometimes there's one less but it never really changes and nothing you can say will alter this fact.
Keep wondering. I'm not covering every player. We have enough tangents already.
Uh huh...I'll let you in on a little secret...nobody's fooled.
I specifically mentioned Howe and Hull, they were part of the point I made. You left them out intentionally because you knew there was no way you could continue your narrative with them involved.
The slapshot and being discouraged to rush the puck is why Harvey produced so few ES points, and fewer than his peers as mentioned earlier? Why did it only affect him? That's the point, it's not just about Kelly anymore. You want to place Lidstrom in a certain group but where does Harvey sit? By all statistical evidence he sits lower than Lidstrom offensively.
So few? So much lower than his peers?
Last I checked he was around the same as his peers at ES and blew them all away on the PP. Are we looking at the same chart?
Why did Lidstrom produce so few ES points and fewer than his peers?