NHL's status as worlds best league in jepordy?

[misterjaggers]

Fair enough .. Forsberg and Naslund may stay in Sweden and raise their Families ..

Some times Country comes before money ..

Those two expamles I have just given would again be directed at the question of this thread .. Star Hockey players playing Outside the NHL ..

How about a young guy like Ovechkin ?? The NHL is proposing a 4 year entry level contract for rookies at 850k .. Do you beleive that any Russian team could not afford to pay him more then that .. Same with Malkin .. So if the top draft picks in the Future stay in Europe then what ??

The two Russian billionaires could outbid the NHL for players under the old CBA so obviously they'll still have that ability under a new CBA. Of course, from a business standpoint it doesn't make any sense for Ak Bars and its 6000 seat stadium to get into a bidding war with the NHL, but if its billionaire owner doesn't care about throwing away money then he can offer any ridiculous salary he pleases.

If a player wants to compete at the highest level under the best conditions, he'll play in the NHL. The RSL cannot compete with the NHL's superior working, travelling and living conditions. Most players would prefer to live and work in the U.S. and Canada, not Russia. Players with families, especially, wouldn't want to live in a country that has problems with rampant corruption and crime against foreigners.

 

[canucksfan]

When the NHL comes back almost all of the best players will be playing in it.

 

[nyrmessier011]

How would you know that or at least the amount?

If you are following the CBA talks closely you will notice that the NHL proposes a 75% Qualifying offer to Kovalchuk who made 1.3 M last season to keep his rights ..

If Salary arbitration is removed as the NHL wants or limited or capped to 25% max increase their other suggestion..

How will Kovalchuk get his next contract up to $5 million .. The Owners and GM's from day 1 would be making the same mistakes that brought us to this point today of overpaid players .. if they gave Kovalckuk that Dany Heatley would in turn ask for roughly the same amount and soon Atlanta has 2 players taking up 10 mil of a Salary Cap .

The rest of the Owners will be furious because when their young players like Rick Nash, etc has a big year they too now would want 5 Mil.. If the Stars are only getting 5 mil in a Cap world the young players are going to have to put in a lot more time to earn 5 mil season or the whole system will be shot is no time again ..

If the NHL gets its way in this CBA then the most Kovalchuk could expect to get is 1.3 M + 25% raise legally up to 1.625 M ..That is all Atlanta is obligated to give him .. Still only roughly 1/2 he makes this season in RSL ..

Yes, but it can be expected that atlanta will match the offer to keep him even under a cap...if not he is still so young, which bring me to my next point...you can assume that the rookie caps might keep young europeans back at home, but the stars will come back to the league during there prime...the talent wont be dilluted too much...just the career span of an NHL star will decrease because they will come later and leave earlier to avoid injury over a long season (and make an annual salary somewhat close to the NHL season, but for playing half the games its worth it later in your career)

 

[misterjaggers]

...you can assume that the rookie caps might keep young europeans back at home...

The only young European players that might be lured to play somewhere else would be those willing to play for one of the two billionaires in the Russian Super League and only if a team like Ak Bars is willing to make an excessive wage offer. Even if one of the bilionaires outbids the NHL, few players will be interested in playing in an inferior league in a country with inferior work, travel and living conditions.

 

[nyr7andcounting]

The only young European players that might be lured to play somewhere else would be those willing to play for one of the two billionaires in the Russian Super League and only if a team like Ak Bars is willing to make an excessive wage offer. Even if one of the bilionaires outbids the NHL, few players will be interested in playing in an inferior league in a country with inferior work, travel and living conditions.

There will be no bidding to be done. Under the NHL's CBA at least. If Ovechkin wants to come to the NHL at 18 you know what his salary is going to be, 850k. That's not too much for his Russian team to say we will give you 50k more, and if they do it he would probably stay for a season or two, maybe even more in some cases. As good as playing in America can be, there is surely nothing like platying in your home country, especially when you are only 18 years old.

There is no doubt that the best North American born players will play in the NHL no matter what. But when it comes to europeans they would be inclined to play more of their careers in their home country, or at least their home continent, if the NHL money was not always the best money. If at any point in a players career his team at home can match or at least come close to matching what he would make in the NHL, a lot of them will stay home.

 

[Mess]

There will be no bidding to be done. Under the NHL's CBA at least. If Ovechkin wants to come to the NHL at 18 you know what his salary is going to be, 850k. That's not too much for his Russian team to say we will give you 50k more, and if they do it he would probably stay for a season or two, maybe even more in some cases. As good as playing in America can be, there is surely nothing like platying in your home country, especially when you are only 18 years old.

There is no doubt that the best North American born players will play in the NHL no matter what. But when it comes to europeans they would be inclined to play more of their careers in their home country, or at least their home continent, if the NHL money was not always the best money. If at any point in a players career his team at home can match or at least come close to matching what he would make in the NHL, a lot of them will stay home.

Thats the way I see it .. If Kovalchuk stays home then Ovechkin might follow that example and then the next young Player and it snowballs .. These Russian Billionaires just have to keep a few key players and many will follow ..

The lure of the NHL was always two fold .. Prestige and Money .. Once the money is a none issue then its down to the glory .. but if the cap also send the bigger name players home as cap casulalties .. pretty soon the NHL will be 80% NA players..

Think of the entry draft.. a team drafts an Ovechkin and suddenly the 1st overall pick may never play in the NHL perhaps .. You might see Euro drafted later because of the fear , and the entry draft will be best NA player first as the Euro's will be gambles .

 

[misterjaggers]

There will be no bidding to be done. Under the NHL's CBA at least. If Ovechkin wants to come to the NHL at 18 you know what his salary is going to be, 850k. That's not too much for his Russian team to say we will give you 50k more, and if they do it he would probably stay for a season or two, maybe even more in some cases. As good as playing in America can be, there is surely nothing like platying in your home country, especially when you are only 18 years old.

There is no doubt that the best North American born players will play in the NHL no matter what. But when it comes to europeans they would be inclined to play more of their careers in their home country, or at least their home continent, if the NHL money was not always the best money. If at any point in a players career his team at home can match or at least come close to matching what he would make in the NHL, a lot of them will stay home.

Like I said before, even under the old CBA one of the two Russian billionaire team owners could have outbid the NHL for the services of any player, rookie or veteran. That won't change under a new CBA. The question is, why would a world class player want to play in Russia? These guys dream their entire lives about matching themselves against the best players in the world and winning a Stanley Cup. The level of competition in Russia is inferior and working conditions, travel arrangements and living conditions are inferior. After reading the U.S. Embassy website's warnings about violence against foreigners in Russia, why would a player consider bringing his family?

I can understand why a homesick Russian near the end of his career might want to play in Russia or, perhaps, a Russian rookie lacking confidence, but otherwise, it remains the less attractive option.
.

 

[nyr7andcounting]

Like I said before, even under the old CBA one of the two Russian billionaire team owners could have outbid the NHL for the services of any player, rookie or veteran. That won't change under a new CBA. The question is, why would a world class player want to play in Russia? These guys dream their entire lives about matching themselves against the best players in the world and winning a Stanley Cup. The level of competition in Russia is inferior and working conditions, travel arrangements and living conditions are inferior. After reading the U.S. Embassy website's warnings about violence against foreigners in Russia, why would a player consider bringing his family?

I can understand why a homesick Russian near the end of his career might want to play in Russia or, perhaps, a Russian rookie lacking confidence, but otherwise, it remains the less attractive option.
.

It will change under a new CBA because now more of those teams are going to be able to outbid an NHL team at some point in a players career. When guys are in their primes they are going to get the most money here. But when they a lot of euro clubs are definetly going to be able to bid with the NHL and keep some players in their home countries. And it could have a snowball effect.

Why would a world class player want to play in Russia? I dunno, maybe because that's where they are from? You are wrong that european players dream their whole lives of winning the Stanley Cup, they dream their whole lives of winning international competitions for their countries and making a lot of money. Once they can make a lot of money in their own country, they no longer have a use for the NHL.

And again, I never said anything about foreign players going to Russia to play. I am talking about Russian players playing at home, maybe a few eastern european players as well. They won't need to be afraid to bring their family their because their families are already there most likely...another reason to play at home.

 

[Luc Labelle]

It will change under a new CBA because now more of those teams are going to be able to outbid an NHL team at some point in a players career. When guys are in their primes they are going to get the most money here. But when they a lot of euro clubs are definetly going to be able to bid with the NHL and keep some players in their home countries. And it could have a snowball effect.

I don't think we will be seeing the NHL being outbid for stars in a future CBA with a restricted hard cap. The latest proposal did not have a cap on individual salaries. The stars will still be handsomely rewarded. Teams will just have to manage their cap room. If anything the 3rd & 4th line players will be most affected in the new cap world.

BRAVO! That is what annoyed me most in the old CBA, fringe players making 2 or 3 million per year. Those are the players the NHL would lose to Europe. Even there, I don't think there will be that big a market for that level of player in Europe. Your snowball effect will be more like a few snowflakes falling on a hot summer day.

 

[nedved93]

the vast majority of objective, rational-minded fans would probably have no problem with a cap in the $45-$50 million range, along with reform of system inflators, 24% rollback, a stiff luxury tax, and robust revenue sharing. if the CBA ultimately resembles such a framework, and the league implements rules changes to open the game up, as well as a marketing strategy centered around the league's elite players, i believe the NHL will not only remain the pre-eminent professional hockey league in the world, but will thrive.

however, if a draconian hard cap in the $30-$35 million is implemented, i believe many european leagues will catch up to the NHL in terms of talent. consider some hard numbers:

top 3 forwards, top 2 dmen, #1 goalie making an average of $3 million = $18M

next 3 forwards, next 2 dmen making an average of $1.5 million = $7.5M

remaining 12 players making an average of $500K = $6M

total = $31.5M

it would be difficult to argue that large to middle market teams in the RSL, SEL, sm-liiga, and extraliga couldn't afford to match these salaries for certain players. one has to believe that a euro-exodus will result if such a restrictive hard cap is implemented. the only question is the magnitude of that exodus...

 

[misterjaggers]

It will change under a new CBA because now more of those teams are going to be able to outbid an NHL team at some point in a players career. When guys are in their primes they are going to get the most money here. But when they a lot of euro clubs are definetly going to be able to bid with the NHL and keep some players in their home countries. And it could have a snowball effect.

Why would a world class player want to play in Russia? I dunno, maybe because that's where they are from? You are wrong that european players dream their whole lives of winning the Stanley Cup, they dream their whole lives of winning international competitions for their countries and making a lot of money. Once they can make a lot of money in their own country, they no longer have a use for the NHL.

And again, I never said anything about foreign players going to Russia to play. I am talking about Russian players playing at home, maybe a few eastern european players as well. They won't need to be afraid to bring their family their because their families are already there most likely...another reason to play at home.

There are only two Russian teams (owned by billionaires) that could be expected to compete with the NHL on salaries and that doesn't represent any change. It was true under the old CBA as well. And, again, the appeal of playing in Russia in an inferior league with inferior living conditions should be limited to homesick Russians in the twilight of their career or rookies that lack enough confidence or discipline to play in the NHL.

What other European teams can compete with the NHL on salary? None.

 

[Mess]

There are only two Russian teams (owned by billionaires) that could be expected to compete with the NHL on salaries and that doesn't represent any change. It was true under the old CBA as well. And, again, the appeal of playing in Russia in an inferior league with inferior living conditions should be limited to homesick Russians in the twilight of their career or rookies that lack enough confidence or discipline to play in the NHL.

What other European teams can compete with the NHL on salary? None.

"But according to a source close to Russia's Professional Hockey League, the Russian Superleague is without a doubt the richest league in the world after the NHL, with five or six clubs maintaining budgets of $25 million to $30 million."

http://web.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/09/17/002.html

Should the NHL lockout continue into 2005, Russia could see a second wave of returning Russian stars, including Tampa Bay Lightning goalie Nikolai Khabibulin and New York Islanders center Alexei Yashin.

"Khabibulin will probably join one of the top teams," the source said, noting that Russian clubs were completely prepared financially to handle another influx of NHL players.

Superleague clubs are counting on the return of the Russian stars to provide a surge in spectator and sponsor interest.

 

[dakota]

"But according to a source close to Russia's Professional Hockey League, the Russian Superleague is without a doubt the richest league in the world after the NHL, with five or six clubs maintaining budgets of $25 million to $30 million."

http://web.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/09/17/002.html

Should the NHL lockout continue into 2005, Russia could see a second wave of returning Russian stars, including Tampa Bay Lightning goalie Nikolai Khabibulin and New York Islanders center Alexei Yashin.

"Khabibulin will probably join one of the top teams," the source said, noting that Russian clubs were completely prepared financially to handle another influx of NHL players.

Superleague clubs are counting on the return of the Russian stars to provide a surge in spectator and sponsor interest.

I wonder if the Islanders can transfer Yashin and his salary to the russian league? I will bet they would be willing to do this for them... let the good times roll...

 

[Mess]

There are only two Russian teams (owned by billionaires) that could be expected to compete with the NHL on salaries and that doesn't represent any change. It was true under the old CBA as well. And, again, the appeal of playing in Russia in an inferior league with inferior living conditions should be limited to homesick Russians in the twilight of their career or rookies that lack enough confidence or discipline to play in the NHL.

What other European teams can compete with the NHL on salary? None.

European league could hit NHL hard

It may be beyond owners' power to control free market
"American and Canadian hockey players may have a dozen countries competing for their services. So, as much as commissioner Gary Bettman and NHL owners want to prohibit the free-market spending that led them to pay players more than they really wanted to, it ultimately may not be within the power of anyone in North America to stop it.''

Now much of this is overstatement right now, but if the NHL is out for another nine or 10 months as many are predicting, a super league springing up in Europe has a real potential for hurting the NHL. There's no way it's going to destroy it, but the NHL's entire sales pitch to North Americans is that without question that fans are watching the best hockey players in the world. But what happens if Kovalchuk doesn't come back. What if the even more likely happens and Sidney Crosby and Gilbert Brule and many other players just like him are offered more money tax free and fewer games to play in Europe. With the way both the NHLPA and the league are willing to sell out rookies with the proposed new agreement, it's certainly not hard to imagine such a case. And if a Euro super league does spring up, it's a virtual certainty the best players will start there.

http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgaryherald/news/sports/story.html?id=9aa79d35-9304-4dad-a7c6-9a3b0fc07c3b&rfp=dta

 

[misterjaggers]

European league could hit NHL hard

It may be beyond owners' power to control free market
"American and Canadian hockey players may have a dozen countries competing for their services. So, as much as commissioner Gary Bettman and NHL owners want to prohibit the free-market spending that led them to pay players more than they really wanted to, it ultimately may not be within the power of anyone in North America to stop it.''

Now much of this is overstatement right now, but if the NHL is out for another nine or 10 months as many are predicting, a super league springing up in Europe has a real potential for hurting the NHL. There's no way it's going to destroy it, but the NHL's entire sales pitch to North Americans is that without question that fans are watching the best hockey players in the world. But what happens if Kovalchuk doesn't come back. What if the even more likely happens and Sidney Crosby and Gilbert Brule and many other players just like him are offered more money tax free and fewer games to play in Europe. With the way both the NHLPA and the league are willing to sell out rookies with the proposed new agreement, it's certainly not hard to imagine such a case. And if a Euro super league does spring up, it's a virtual certainty the best players will start there.

http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgaryherald/news/sports/story.html?id=9aa79d35-9304-4dad-a7c6-9a3b0fc07c3b&rfp=dta

Since the fanbase, dollars and infrastructure don't exist, a European Super League is little more than wishful thinking. The idea was thoroughly discussed and dismissed in previous threads. If it's such an attractive business prospect, why hasn't any investors stepped forward? Heck, they can't even get the WHA off the ground here...

 

[nyr7andcounting]

There are only two Russian teams (owned by billionaires) that could be expected to compete with the NHL on salaries and that doesn't represent any change. It was true under the old CBA as well. And, again, the appeal of playing in Russia in an inferior league with inferior living conditions should be limited to homesick Russians in the twilight of their career or rookies that lack enough confidence or discipline to play in the NHL.

What other European teams can compete with the NHL on salary? None.

There are more than 2 teams in Europe that can compete with 500k-800k salaries. With a restrictive cap at let's say $32 million, there are alot of players in the league that would only be making that much, especially at the beginning and end of their careers. The NHL teams that own the rights to such players will definetly have competition coming from Europe.

And which has less appeal to a Russian hockey player who plays a fast, offensive style of game and doesn't like too much contact...playing at home in Russia or playing NHL style hockey in America. Honestly, I think most players would rather play at home on bigger ice with less physical play and shorter seasons than play in the NHL.

 

[nyr7andcounting]

I don't think we will be seeing the NHL being outbid for stars in a future CBA with a restricted hard cap. The latest proposal did not have a cap on individual salaries. The stars will still be handsomely rewarded. Teams will just have to manage their cap room. If anything the 3rd & 4th line players will be most affected in the new cap world.

BRAVO! That is what annoyed me most in the old CBA, fringe players making 2 or 3 million per year. Those are the players the NHL would lose to Europe. Even there, I don't think there will be that big a market for that level of player in Europe. Your snowball effect will be more like a few snowflakes falling on a hot summer day.

Never said anything about the NHL being outbid for stars. In fact I said they won't be outbid for stars.

Fact is, and you admit it, current euros who fill the bottom end of NHL rosters are most likely going to be able to make almost as much or the same amount playing Europe. Many of those players are going to come to the NHL late and leave early. And I think in some circumstances, because of style of play, even some guys who are top line players will go back. When the talent pool can barely service all 30 teams, losing any amount of players is a bad thing.

 

[Mess]

There are more than 2 teams in Europe that can compete with 500k-800k salaries. With a restrictive cap at let's say $32 million, there are alot of players in the league that would only be making that much, especially at the beginning and end of their careers. The NHL teams that own the rights to such players will definetly have competition coming from Europe.

"But according to a source close to Russia's Professional Hockey League, the Russian Superleague is without a doubt the richest league in the world after the NHL, with five or six clubs maintaining budgets of $25 million to $30 million."

http://web.themoscowtimes.com/stori.../09/17/002.html

Because of the Tax breaks also 800 K US$ in Russia is a lot different then 800 K in the NHL ..

Here is a good USA Today Article

It shows that $ is not equal after taxes ..

"Let's say a team in Russia offers (the Ottawa Senators') Zdeno Chara $3.5 million tax free — that could be close to double what he would make in the NHL," agent Matt Keator said. "And I have had Russian teams approach me."

Chara was scheduled to earn $4.9 million next season, but if players still give the 24% salary rollback that was last offered, he would be at $3.72 million. In his tax bracket, he might be taking home less than $2 million.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/2005-02-21-players-alternatives_x.htm

So a team that has a 30-32 Mil US CAP in Russia has a better take home pay ..

 

[nyr7andcounting]

"But according to a source close to Russia's Professional Hockey League, the Russian Superleague is without a doubt the richest league in the world after the NHL, with five or six clubs maintaining budgets of $25 million to $30 million."

http://web.themoscowtimes.com/stori.../09/17/002.html

Because of the Tax breaks also 800 K US$ in Russia is a lot different then 800 K in the NHL ..

Here is a good USA Today Article

It shows that $ is not equal after taxes ..

"Let's say a team in Russia offers (the Ottawa Senators') Zdeno Chara $3.5 million tax free — that could be close to double what he would make in the NHL," agent Matt Keator said. "And I have had Russian teams approach me."

Chara was scheduled to earn $4.9 million next season, but if players still give the 24% salary rollback that was last offered, he would be at $3.72 million. In his tax bracket, he might be taking home less than $2 million.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/2005-02-21-players-alternatives_x.htm

So a team that has a 30-32 Mil US CAP in Russia has a better take home pay ..

Another reason playing at home is more appealing if salaries are the same or almost equal....taxes in europe in most cases are not what they are here. It's pretty obvious that if there is a restrictive cap which results, at any point in a players career, in euro leagues being able to compete salary wise with the NHL a lot of european players will play in europe.

 

[tripledekehockey]

Still the best, but not all the best players will play here

 

[misterjaggers]

"But according to a source close to Russia's Professional Hockey League, the Russian Superleague is without a doubt the richest league in the world after the NHL, with five or six clubs maintaining budgets of $25 million to $30 million."

http://web.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/09/17/002.html

Should the NHL lockout continue into 2005, Russia could see a second wave of returning Russian stars, including Tampa Bay Lightning goalie Nikolai Khabibulin and New York Islanders center Alexei Yashin.

"Khabibulin will probably join one of the top teams," the source said, noting that Russian clubs were completely prepared financially to handle another influx of NHL players.

Superleague clubs are counting on the return of the Russian stars to provide a surge in spectator and sponsor interest.

Dynamo Moscow anticipates 6000 to 7000 fans per game this season and their ticket prices range from $3.50 to 10.00.
http://web.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/09/17/002.html
Wow. <smirk>

 

[misterjaggers]

Another reason playing at home is more appealing if salaries are the same or almost equal....taxes in europe in most cases are not what they are here. It's pretty obvious that if there is a restrictive cap which results, at any point in a players career, in euro leagues being able to compete salary wise with the NHL a lot of european players will play in europe.

Another reason why players wouldn't want to play in the Russian Super League: player contracts aren't worth the paper they're printed on and teams rarely pay players on time.