NHL may be prepared to eat its young

[Beukeboom Fan]

I agree with you that it is not a huge burden to make $1.2 million by the age of 20! It is also less of a burden to make $2 or $3 million tax-free! I guess I am saying that by the average man's standards, all these numbers are ridiculous. By pro athlete standards...the world is a different place.

I'm not one of those people that says that the players should just be grateful for the opportunity to play in the NHL. I just don't think it's unreasonable though to establish rules that reduce the risk of overpaying a prospect that has never played in the NHL when a team has an overall salary cap.

And I can't disagree strongly enough that a $1.2MM cap is going to keep prospects in Europe. Who on the board would be willing to reduce their earning potentail in years 4-14 of their career by $3-5MM per year? All of this to make another $800,000 in years 1-3? I just don't see it.

And if some European prospects won't come over to NA, for very valid reasons? It's happened before, and it will happen again. For some, the language and lifestyle shifts aren't worth the extra money. More power to them. I just don't expect someone to stay in Russia for $800,000 per year for 3 years when they will potentially have the ability to make 3x as much in N.A. after year 3.

 

[HSHS]

I'd say that he'd do just as well financially (minus some endorsements, but plus salarie and without the tax hassle) to stay in Russia.

I just believe the kool-aid I seen and heard from Ovi, GMGM, Ted, etc. etc. that he will be there.

Wake the HELL UP, people.
If you get your salary cap, what are you afraid of????

Are you all just bitter that these kids are making millions doing what you mistakenly believe that you'd do for free???

I actually agree with those on this board that say if you got a cap, why do you need a rookie cap. A market will be set for these draft picks and that market will be influenced by the overall cap.

The only thing is to prevent top guys like Crosby, Ovi, Malkin from holding their drafted teams hostage. It also, like many other things, protects the owners from themselves.

I completely hate the idea of a 4 yr contract.

I think players who perform at a higher level, designated by the league, should be rewarded AFTER they do what Nash and Ilya did.

 

[missK]

For every player like Crosby (or Nash or Kovalchuk for that matter) you probably have 20-30 first round picks making over $1MM that are stealing a paycheck their rookie year. Is it fair that guys like Fedetenko who were found late in the draft play for the league minimum when they come in and contribute immediately, and 1st round picks like Shvidki and Alexseev make 4x as much to do nothing?

This statement above is soo true.

Remember - The rookie cap is offered to the exceptional player, not all 200 something players drafted each year. Maybe 30 guys or less a year get that rookie max contract, the other guys drafted later get less.

 

[Sp5618]

The only thing is to prevent top guys like Crosby, Ovi, Malkin from holding their drafted teams hostage. It also, like many other things, protects the owners from themselves.

I completely hate the idea of a 4 yr contract.

I think players who perform at a higher level, designated by the league, should be rewarded AFTER they do what Nash and Ilya did.

Yeah, I guess this is what it boils down to, here in this thread regarding rookies, and the CBA overall. Protecting the owners from themselves. All it takes is one guy, as we have seen.

 

[missK]

Do European players receive the same benefits as NHL players? Are their pension plans comparable? How about insurance coverage? Do they have to pay for their own equipment? Will they receive a per diem in Europe? How much of their travel costs are covered? Does the team provide meals? Training? Practice uniforms? Doctors?

There are factors other than “salary†when determining the financial advantage or disadvantage of playing in Europe or the NHL.

Totally correct! Quality of life is not just about how many $$ you make. In Russia, the players need to supply their own towels and toilet paper in some arenas. You can read about things like that which was Lecavalier's experience HERE. Here are just a few things that stood out:

The worst are the ones in the farthest outposts, such as Siberia. One rink was so cold that Lecavalier never broke a sweat and his feet were frozen for the entire game."The fans never take off their coats and toques," Lecavalier said.
"They had one shower," said Kazan goalie Fred Brathwaite, a native of Ottawa and former goalie for four NHL teams. "And when I say "shower,' I mean like a spigot you would find in a kitchen sink just sticking out of the ceiling. Take one guess if the water was hot or not."

Players often bring their own towels on road trips. Before one trip, the players were told they might want to bring a toilet seat.

Even the night before home games, teams are locked away in a military-like base (the players say bah-say). They eat dinner at about 7, go to bed by 11 then head back to the rink the next day for a morning skate. Then it's back on the bus and back to the "bah-say" for lunch and a nap.

Not much quality of life there.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Undeveloped???
Take a look at their Russian stats.

I did, none of the 19-20 year olds are carrying their teams.

 

[HockeyCritter]

Undeveloped???
Take a look at their Russian stats.

I did, none of the 19-20 year olds are carrying their teams.

So that naturally means they're underdeveloped?

I think the fact that youngsters are playing in a men's league (the most defensive minded league out there mind you) would certainly go a long way in developing the ability to play with larger, more aggressive, and experienced players.

 

[dolfanar]

Wake the HELL UP, people.
If you get your salary cap, what are you afraid of????

Are you all just bitter that these kids are making millions doing what you mistakenly believe that you'd do for free???

Two words: Alexander Daigle

 

[kdb209]

Originally Posted by NYR469
they will set the rookie cap at either 3 or 4 years and then basically every entry level contract will be for those 3 or 4 years (like under the old cba) with only question being how much $$ (not everyone gets the max)...why would a team give a 1 year deal and then have to give the guy a raise when they can get him at the low price for 3-4 years?

Well obviously the team wouldn't want to do that. That's why you hire an agent. If there isn't a rule that says a rookie contract _must_ be 3 years in length, then the agent can negotiate a 1 year deal and get his client a payoff sooner. Then there's no need to mess with the rookie cap numbers just for the very few players who become impact players in the first three years of their professional career.

Under the expired CBA, the ELS system wasn't just linked to the first contract, it was for some number of years. Whether an 18 yo signed a 3 yr deal or 3 seperate 1 yr deals, the same ELS limits applied.

First Contract Signing Age / Years in the Entry Level System and Subject to Compensation Limits
18-21 3 years
22-23 2 years
24 1 year
25 and older No required number of years, not in the Entry Level System and not subject to limits on Compensation

Note that players who sign a contract at 18 or 19 have their ELS period extended if they do not play at least 10 games in the NHL in each of their first two yrs.

Assuming the new ELS system isn't two different (other than a lower salary, limit to bonuses, and 4 yr duration as speculated), it wouldn't be possible for Overchin, Malkin, or even Crosby to avoid the ELS by playing in Russia unless they are willing to wait 7 yrs untill they're 25 yo.

 

[mooseOAK*]

So that naturally means they're underdeveloped?

I think the fact that youngsters are playing in a men's league (the most defensive minded league out there mind you) would certainly go a long way in developing the ability to play with larger, more aggressive, and experienced players.

We are talking about some team or teams giving them more money that the NHL rookie minimum to play in Russia right now before they are the best players that they can be. Which isn't going to happen.

 

[Marconius]

Over on the Russian board they are talking about a 1.5 million dollar (US) offer for Ovechkin to play for Metallurg, and a 2 mil offer from AK Bars. Apparently there are several other teams also willing to pay over the proposed rookie minimum as well. He may be better off in the long run to go tot he NHL, but they are sure making it tempting for him to stay in Russia.

I don't know if there are a lot of Russian temas that can afford a 5 mill/yr Ovechking which is what he looks to be if he fulfills potential. I have to question the business advice he's getting if his Agent can't see past the first couple years worth of paydays.

 

[kdb209]

Originally Posted by Pepper
Ummmm how did Caps and Pens lose their first round picks?

I am assuming that if Ovechkin and Malkin do not sign, these teams will not have these players' services, thus their first round picks from '04 were lost. No one knows if/when they would come over, but we do know that the Pens and Caps don't get to do the draft over again.

I also assome that if someone drafts Crosby, they probably hope he will actually sign with an NHL team and make his services available to that team. At least with Crosby, we hope he prefers NA over playing elsewhere as would be the more natural reaction.

No, the Caps and Pens will not lose Ovechkin or Malkin - their services might be delayed for a year or two, but the Caps and Pens will still retain their rights untill they do come over. Unsigned Euros are not subject to the two yr re-enter the draft restrictions.

So, if they ever want a big NHL payday they will come over, and when they do (assuming the new CBA is similar to the expired one):

- They will still be subject to the ELS system until they're 25.

- After 25, they will be RFAs with no rights to arbitration.

- They will NOT become UFAs at 30/29/28. Group III FA requires 4 accrued NHL seasons in addition to the age limits.

So if Ovechkin and Malkin ever wand a big NHL payday, they will sign with the Caps and Pens, sooner rather than later.

 

[Marconius]

All the people claiming that the rookies will be able to make up for it "later" in their career...I ask you, WHEN? It sure as hell won't be under the "new NHL". Whatever the new CBA terms will be, the days of players earning 5-6 million a year are OVER.

According to most rumors the elite players will still be eligible for their 5-6 million dollar paydays

 

[EroCaps]

George McPhee was on DC radio a couple days ago. He talked with Ovechkin recently and Ovechkin can't wait to play NHL hockey. He'll play this fall. I'm willing to bet Malkin does too.

 

[ryz]

Let's do some math here:

Russia:

let's say he gets $2M per year for 10 years. The $2M is most likely a gross overestimation but for the sake of argument, let's use that.

Career: $20M

NHL:

(4 x 1.2M) + (6 x 5M) ) = $34.8M. So he gets nearly double the money even if he plays only 10 years (more like plays more) and even he gets 'only' $5M (even under salary cap he might get $6M or more).

I can't believe so many people seem to have skipped over this post. I think it hits the nail right on the head. If the Euro's wanna stay home to make an extra .5 mil in their first 3-4 yrs then so be it but they wil NEVER, EVER be at a point in RSL where a player (let's use Ovechkin and Malkin) will make 4-5-6 mil/year for 8-10 seasons in a row. Over a career, a good Euro player staying in Russia would lose out on about 25 mil+ if he could have a good, long career in the NHL.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Two words: Alexander Daigle

Right.
So when do GMs and owners actually start taking RESPONSIBILITY for their decisions.

If you don't want to take the chance, don't take it.

trade your $#1 overall pick for the #12 pick and sign someone for $400,00

 

[Paxon]

I agree almost totally except for the 'posh US living', they will most likely enjoy better quality of life in Sweden than in US.

Not everything can be measured in money/material, things like clean environent, safe surroundings, stabile society, much lower crimerates etc. affect quality of living as well. And in all those US comes 2nd compared to Nordic countries.

Don't know about you but my enviroment ain't too shabby. No serious crimes either. You know there is more to America than ghettoes and smog factories.

 

[Ola]

You have so many factual errors in your post that I don't really know where to start...

I didn't equal Finland to Europe in any point. Show where I did that or admit that you were clearly wrong..

When you said Europe isn't a threat, you refeered to something, right? Just about anyone following hockey knows that it(a low entery level cap for 4 years) could turn into a problem.

Anyone who really thinks Europe is a 'threat', stealing young prospects because of the proposed rookie cap, is dreaming.

Like I said before everybody that knows squat about the game knows this could be a problem. I am sure that this is something that even concerns the NHL and NHLPA too. Everybody knows that 850k is a good cap, in general, but might be a problem in some case's. That could hurt the league in the end, and our teams as fans.

Seriously Ola, just because you were humiliated in the 'remove redline' -argument doesn't mean you have to embarass yourself here as well.

You're over your head in this, I recommend you stick to SEL topics where you might have something to contribute

What world are you from? This is a hockey discussion board. How serious do you take it? You jump into another thread about rulechanges and says that I am wrong and that you have some "poll" from a finnishpaper to prove it, I would love to see that poll. I don't know if you think you are macho for beeing able to write in english and starting arguments on the internet.

I'm from Europe, I think I have a slightly better view of the situation than most others here. Yes, European teams are sick of losing players but there's nothing they can do, only certain russian teams have the money to reach even the same amount of zeroes as NHL offers and they can't give those kind of offers to many players. Finnish and swedish young players most likely won't give Russian league any thought as they are used to certain level of non-material quality of living you have tough time finding in Russia.

The only thing I have a problem is when you show up in a ton of threads with extremely stuipid remarks and keeps refering to you beeing from finland and that must mean that you know it all. You never discuss anything, you just states that you are right and everyone else is wrong, not once but with 20 posts in a thread.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

I can't believe so many people seem to have skipped over this post. I think it hits the nail right on the head. If the Euro's wanna stay home to make an extra .5 mil in their first 3-4 yrs then so be it but they wil NEVER, EVER be at a point in RSL where a player (let's use Ovechkin and Malkin) will make 4-5-6 mil/year for 8-10 seasons in a row. Over a career, a good Euro player staying in Russia would lose out on about 25 mil+ if he could have a good, long career in the NHL.

Right, but Ovechkin or whoever can join the NHL at 25 years old and be eligible for a $5 Million contract.
They no longer are limited to rookie contracts when they join the league at 25 years old.

So from 19 to 25, he can get maybe 12 Million tax free in Russia.
In the NHL, he might only get 12 Million (taxable) in North America.

It's a wash.

And after 25, he's free to bargain for whatever contract he likes.

The point is this: If the NHL has a salary cap, why even bother trying for a stricter rookie cap.

It's stupid.
If anything, they should loosen it up, just to make sure we don't lose rookies to other leagues.

 

[Paxon]

I don't see the need for a rookie cap in a salary cap system. This is clearly just a way for the NHL and NHLPA to conspire to funnel more money to the veterans rather than let the market decide who deserves what percentage of each team's cap. I wouldn't be surprised if it is the NHLPA pushing this, making it an easy demand for the NHL to accept.

Would it have made sense if Wayne Gretzky got paid two beans and a can of peas for his first four seasons which included his 92 and 71 goal seasons?

So long as you have protection against prospect holdouts what is the big deal.

 

[Marconius]

When you said Europe isn't a threat, you refeered to something, right? Just about anyone following hockey knows that it(a low entery level cap for 4 years) could turn into a problem.

I think he's just saying that Europe will be as much a threat as a prospect who decided to be a fireman, there will always be those who choose to play somewhere else/do something else. More to the point, do you really think it's a bad thing if the NHL loses those players who want to play elsewhere for such a minimal amount of money (minimal in the grand scheme of things). Perhpas this will serve to reduce some of the floaters, or players who are only it for the paycheque...

 

[The Old Master]

And after 25, he's free to bargain for whatever contract he likes.
.

he may be able to bargain with any team he wants but he would still be a rookie. would he not?

 

[Ola]

I think he's just saying that Europe will be as much a threat as a prospect who decided to be a fireman, there will always be those who choose to play somewhere else/do something else. More to the point, do you really think it's a bad thing if the NHL loses those players who want to play elsewhere for such a minimal amount of money (minimal in the grand scheme of things). Perhpas this will serve to reduce some of the floaters, or players who are only it for the paycheque...

I don't think it will be much of a problem with the superstars, occasionally it will. But Ovechkin and Co. won't probably even hesitate to go to NA. But at the same time there are always several players below them. Good defensemens, 2nd line forwards/1st on a crappy team that won't ever make top money in the NHL. With the new hardcap the best players will still get top dollar, the rest of the players will have to take paycuts.

A example could be a good young player, a kid drafted in the middle of the 1st round. He have the potential to turn into a decent player. But his first 2 years are pretty tough. He is still highly regarded in his home country and gets a good offer, lets say 2m a year in russia. There is a good chance that kid might opt for a safe enviorment in his hometown. Like many russians have done the last couple of years.

And who knows how russia will look in 3-4 years. The development in that league have been extremely fast the last couple of years. I am sure things will get better and better. A possible scenario is that about 30-50% of the russians talented enought to play in the NHL would end up playing in russia. This could have a affect on the league. And then once that league starts establish itself even more they could start lureing back the big stars. The NHL of the future will need its Malkin's and Ovechkin's.

 

[kdb209]

Right, but Ovechkin or whoever can join the NHL at 25 years old and be eligible for a $5 Million contract.
They no longer are limited to rookie contracts when they join the league at 25 years old.

So from 19 to 25, he can get maybe 12 Million tax free in Russia.
In the NHL, he might only get 12 Million (taxable) in North America.

It's a wash.

And after 25, he's free to bargain for whatever contract he likes.

The point is this: If the NHL has a salary cap, why even bother trying for a stricter rookie cap.

It's stupid.
If anything, they should loosen it up, just to make sure we don't lose rookies to other leagues.

Unfortunately, he's not really free at 25 either. He's an RFA with no arbitration rights - the Caps could low-ball him with an offer just a little bit higher than a Russian Team, then what. He can't even wait it out and become a UFA at 28 - Group III FA requires 4 years in the NHL in addition to the age limit.

 

[Mess]

Unfortunately, he's not really free at 25 either. He's an RFA with no arbitration rights - the Caps could low-ball him with an offer just a little bit higher than a Russian Team, then what. He can't even wait it out and become a UFA at 28 - Group III FA requires 4 years in the NHL in addition to the age limit.

Is your goal to get him into the league or out of it??

Its hard to tell.

So after waiting for 7 years for him to show up the Caps play hard ball with him.

At which time he might be one of the best players in the world at that age.