NHL likely to implement shootouts, other changes

[Spungo*]

Shootouts are not used in any regular season soccer game.

Know what? Tie games are allowed in the most popular sport on the planet earth, so they should be good enough for the NHL, right?

I know you are trying to argue against shootouts, but you are actually helping my argument. By your admission, shootouts are reserved for the *most important games* in the biggest sport on the planet earth (inlcuding the World Cup... the biggest sporting event on the planet earth), yet they are unacceptable for some lousy Columbus vs. Anaheim mid-february NHL game to decide who gets 1 extra point? Come on, brah.

And your "following my logic" attempt failed as I wasn't arguing that everything done in Soccer should be done for hockey (using grass instead of ice, playing with a ball instead of a puck, etc.). I was arguing that shootouts are an accepted way to determine a winner in sports. Unlike the silly body checking meter and other nonsense anti-shootout dopes have tried comparing it to.

 

[helicecopter]

My point is we shouldn't be using soccer as any template for success in the states.

Agree, it's just HE was the one who started using soccer to legitimate solutions..

 

[Spungo*]

Agree, it's just HE was the one who started using soccer to legitimate solutions..

I was using soccer to show that shootouts are an accepted solution to tie games, nothing more. I wasn't saying that everything done in soccer should be done in hockey.

 

[helicecopter]

I know you are trying to argue against shootouts,.

Not really, i don't feel any need for shootouts, but it's not a big deal..i don't have problems with them either as far as they are considered ONLY for regular season games. It's just that i found funny you used soccer on one argument and forgot about it two lines later.. and so i did that very good gag!

..but you are actually helping my argument.

I don't see how..but IF that's the case, i've no problems with that since as i said i would have no real problems with regular seaon shootouts.

By your admission, shootouts are reserved for the *most important games* in the biggest sport on the planet earth (inlcuding the World Cup... the biggest sporting event on the planet earth),

Are reserved for when they NEED to determine a winner (something not necessary in NHL regular season games). They are still better than flipping a coin..and to play further overtimes in competitions with fixed schedules would hamper the chances of those teams..
As for the finals, since they would have the opportunity to do that without having to modify schedules, i personally think they should re-play the game a couple of days later.

..yet they are unacceptable for some lousy Columbus vs. Anaheim mid-february NHL game to decide who gets 1 extra point? Come on, brah.

As explained, i never said they are unacceptable for any regular season game.
(i would hate them to determine playoff wins though)

Btw, the way i would personally do it (but won't be the case of course) if shootouts are going to be used is this:
4 points for win in regulation.
3 points for win in overtime, 0 point for the overtime loser.
2 points for the shootout winner, 1 point for the shootout loser.


It seems we agree more on the number of regular season games..your post wasn't there yet when i started writing my reply but we made several similar points!

 

[Spungo*]

Not really, i don't feel any need for shootouts, but it's not a big deal..i don't have problems with them either as far as they are considered ONLY for regular season games. It's just that i found funny you used soccer on one argument and forgot about it two lines later.. and so i did that very good gag!


I don't see how..but IF that's the case, i've no problems with that since as i said i would have no real problems with regular seaon shootouts.
Are reserved for when they NEED to determine a winner (something not necessary in NHL regular season games). They are still better than flipping a coin..and to play further overtimes in competitions with fixed schedules would hamper the chances of those teams..
As for the finals, since they would have the opportunity to do that without having to modify schedules, i personally think they should re-play the game a couple of days later.

As explained, i never said they are unacceptable for any regular season game.
(i would hate them to determine playoff wins though)

Btw, the way i would personally do it (but won't be the case of course) if shootouts are going to be used is this:
4 points for win in regulation.
3 points for win in overtime, 0 point for the overtime loser.
2 points for the shootout winner, 1 point for the shootout loser.


It seems we agree more on the number of regular season games..your post wasn't there yet when i started writing my reply but we made several similar points!

Yeah, I noticed that too.

I like Weird Al's idea of every game being for 3 points. Regulation or overtime win gets 3 points, loser gets none. Shootout winner gets 2 points, loser gets 1. Incidentally, Bettman wants this too. I hope he can convince the board of governors.

 

[eye]

How would you feel if your team missed the playoffs to a team that gained some extra points in the standings after winning more game ending individual skill competitions than your team did?

Did the hockey experiment factory in Toronto ever try playing the game by the rules? If a player uses his stick illegally the ref simply takes it away from him and that player can't get a new stick or change until the next whistle. Sticks were intended and made for shooting, angling, passing, pass and shot blocking only. They were never intended for injury and game damaging slashing, cross checking, hooking, spearing, butt ending, can-opener and tugging at the opponent. Make the bluelines 3 feet, implement the AHL no goalie zone, smaller goalie equipment, tag up offsides, no touch icing (any legitimately intended pass will not result in an icing call), and taking away the stick from offenders and we have ourselves a game that will grow in popularity like never before.

There are good reasons why the Czech Republic and Finland are putting the redline back into their games. Defensemen don't get properly developed or involved in the play enough playing 5 on 5 when they always have to hang back. The passing line at the top of the circles may work but don't take the redline out without trying Scotty Bowmans passing line first.

 

[Lard_Lad]

If a player uses his stick illegally the ref simply takes it away from him and that player can't get a new stick or change until the next whistle.

You want the ref to skate up to the player and tear the stick out of his hands? Well...the ensuing tug-of-wars would definitely be entertaining, I guess...

 

[joepeps]

You want the ref to skate up to the player and tear the stick out of his hands? Well...the ensuing tug-of-wars would definitely be entertaining, I guess...

Actually the stick WAS made for butt-endings ask Mr. Hockey Gordie Howe.. lol

 

[Montrealer]

How would you feel if your team missed the playoffs to a team that gained some extra points in the standings after winning more game ending individual skill competitions than your team did?

Sigh........

The shootout is CURRENTLY AN INDIVIDUAL SKILLS COMPETITION.

The shootout, if adopted as an official means of resolving tie games in the regular season, IS NO LONGER MERELY AN INDIVIDUAL SKILLS COMPETITION - ANY MORE THAN BREAKAWAYS ARE.

Sorry to yell, but you people aren't listening to anything.

 

[kdb209]

Originally Posted by kdb209
Hockey is a team sport. Success depends on teamwork, the cooperation of multiple players, in different roles, executing game plans towards a common goal.

It is not a bunch of independent indivdual efforts.

Hockey = team sport
Tennis (singles) = individual sport

See the difference???

Basketball = team sport, yet free throws decide many a game. Thats an individual effort.
Football = team sport, yet field goals decide many a game. Thats also an individual effort.
Majority of baseball is 1 on 1.

Whats wrong with saying "you have 65 minutes to determine a winner. If we dont have a winner after that, we are breaking it down to the fundamentals and letting individuals decide"?

Apparently its coming, so you purists better get the whining out of your system now.

I'm not arguing that there are not individual efforts within the context of team sports - I was responding to the rediculous statement that a shootout was more of a team sport than 4-on-4 OT.

In all the sports you listed, the individual efforts are part of team play.

Yes NBA games are frequently decided by free throws, but free throws are the direct result of team game play, and at the end of games (when FTs are usually most decisive) there are team game decisions on who, when, and how to foul, as well as team efforts in rebounding missed FT's and plays set off those misses. Do you see the NBA deciding a tie game with a free thow contest or a game of horse, no.

Field Goals are not an individual effort. There are 22 guys involved in the play, just like every other play of the game. You think the center, the holder, and the eight other guys blocking have nothing to do with a FG. What about plays run off of a fake FG.

Yes the pitcher v batter is in some ways an individual battle, but it is in the context of the team game. As soon as the batter makes contact, there damn well better be 8 other guys out there.

I'm surprised you didn't mention the penalty shot. Yes it's the closest you'll come to a purely individual effort, but it is awarded as a result of actions in the flow of the team game - a scoring opportunity taken away is rewarded with a scoring opportunity. Here is one of my biggest complaints with the shootout - it devalues the most exciting play in hockey, the penalty shot. It is exciting and special because of its rarity.

I personally have no problem with letting a game end in a tie, but do have a problem with resolving that tie through a mechanism that is completely disjoint with the rest of the game play. You call a shootout "breaking it down to the fundamentals", but it is only one very small part of the fundamentals that you have arbitrarily picked.

 

[Egil]

Just think of all the sick dekes and moves we will see if a shootout is implemented.

I'd pay money to see Ottawa take a shoutout:

Havlat
Spezza
Alfredsson
Hossa
Schaefer



Also, it is key to remember that the NHL, during a shoutout, could probably allow the following two things to occur. Number 1, let the players remove their helmets, which would greatly enhance face time and such. Number 2, allow cameras on the ice for some most excellent shots of the breakaways, producing some superb highlights for Sportscenter. Both of these help the NHL market the game, and should be done.

 

[Spungo*]

Just think of all the sick dekes and moves we will see if a shootout is implemented.

I'd pay money to see Ottawa take a shoutout:

Havlat
Spezza
Alfredsson
Hossa
Schaefer



Also, it is key to remember that the NHL, during a shoutout, could probably allow the following two things to occur. Number 1, let the players remove their helmets, which would greatly enhance face time and such. Number 2, allow cameras on the ice for some most excellent shots of the breakaways, producing some superb highlights for Sportscenter. Both of these help the NHL market the game, and should be done.

Stop being logical. Logic has no place in this thread. We're all supposed to be worried our team will miss the playoffs because they lost in a shootout.

 

[Spungo*]

How would you feel if your team missed the playoffs to a team that gained some extra points in the standings after winning more game ending individual skill competitions than your team did?

I would feel the same way I did after Canada lost in the 1998 Olympics in a shootout. Pissed off that my team couldn't beat the other team. They didn't deserve to win, period.

Should I have been more happy if Canada lost by some fluke goal that bounced off somebodies head and into the net in overtime rather than losing in a shootout? The shootout is comming boys, get used to it. And I actually hope all of your favorite teams miss the playoffs because of a shootout.

 

[CGG]

Did the hockey experiment factory in Toronto ever try playing the game by the rules? If a player uses his stick illegally the ref simply takes it away from him and that player can't get a new stick or change until the next whistle. Sticks were intended and made for shooting, angling, passing, pass and shot blocking only. They were never intended for injury and game damaging slashing, cross checking, hooking, spearing, butt ending, can-opener and tugging at the opponent.

Um, yes they did try playing the game by the rules. There was an increased attention to "obstruction" throughout and some games featured a zero-tolerance rule on impeding the puck carrier through hooking, slashing, holding, etc. Eight penalties were called in the first eight minutes of one game. Then the players got it, and the penalties decreased.

 

[Cawz]

I'm not arguing that there are not individual efforts within the context of team sports - I was responding to the rediculous statement that a shootout was more of a team sport than 4-on-4 OT.

Ya, but 4 on 4 is a bastardized version of the other 60 minutes, used to decide a game. Do you anti-shootout people have a problem with the old Edmonton rule reversed to decide a tie game? 4on4 isnt as different as shootouts are, but it is different.

In all the sports you listed...

Ya, I didnt really believe what I typed. Its silly to compare to other sports.

I personally have no problem with letting a game end in a tie, but do have a problem with resolving that tie through a mechanism that is completely disjoint with the rest of the game play. You call a shootout "breaking it down to the fundamentals", but it is only one very small part of the fundamentals that you have arbitrarily picked.

Well the most fundamental part of hockey is man put puck in net, man stop other man from putting puck in net...

I just dont understand how people always use the argument "its stupid". Hockey is stupid. A bunch of guys chasing a rubber around on some ice. All sports are stupid. Thats why we love em.

Shootouts are about as stupid as, say, if you do something bad, you have to sit in a box all by yourself for, um, lets say, 2 minutes. And your team has to play without you while you look from behind the glass (just like in jail), watch your teammates suffer and you have to think about what you did. Unless you get in a fight. Thats ok.

I figure, the worst thing that will happen is that no-one will like the shootout and they will get rid of it in a few years. The best thing that can happen is interest rises and the game thrives and finally lives up to its untapped potential. They wont lose any fans, no matter what the drama queens say.

 

[King_Brown]

If they must have a shootout just in the regular season, but continue the playoffs the same way as now, they have to redo the point system.

3 Pts Regulation Win
2 Pts Ot Win
1 Pt SO Win

Incentive to win in 60 minutes, more team will try to score and win.

 

[Patman]

Just to emphasize how BS the shootout is in hockey, this past year's AHL season Points and shootout percentages.

 [FONT=Fixedsys]    PTS SO%F  SO%A     PTS SO%F  SO%A 
MCR 110 0.333 0.344 BNG 106 0.288 0.339
HFD 106 0.370 0.245 PHI 103 0.404 0.423
LOW 100 0.246 0.246 NOR  93 0.397 0.379
PRV  90 0.246 0.302 WBS  92 0.413 0.450
WOR  85 0.226 0.267 HRS  82 0.333 0.239
PRT  80 0.250 0.354 BRP  79 0.485 0.314
SPR  57 0.313 0.257 ALB  71 0.273 0.425

RCH 112 0.316 0.351 CHI 105 0.258 0.147 
SJL  98 0.384 0.306 MIL 103 0.250 0.325
MTB  98 0.278 0.382 CIN  93 0.324 0.361
HAM  89 0.239 0.289 HOU  92 0.293 0.309
SYR  83 0.357 0.270 GRG  86 0.396 0.220
EDM  79 0.243 0.342 SAR  62 0.262 0.310
CLE  78 0.250 0.356 UTH  53 0.320 0.265[/FONT]

*flips coin*

 

[Spungo*]

If they must have a shootout just in the regular season, but continue the playoffs the same way as now, they have to redo the point system.

3 Pts Regulation Win
2 Pts Ot Win
1 Pt SO Win

Incentive to win in 60 minutes, more team will try to score and win.

3 points regulation win / 0 points regulation loss
3 points overtime win / 0 points overtime loss
2 points shootput win / 1 point shootout loss

 

[King_Brown]

3 points regulation win / 0 points regulation loss
3 points overtime win / 0 points overtime loss
2 points shootput win / 1 point shootout loss

No points for loosing at all, and point reductions for a OT win and SO win. Why should the NHL reward loosing? No other sport does that.

If you want more goals, and more excitment giving incentive for a regulation win 3 pts will cause teams to play like the Flames and LIghtning. Give em a point in SO or OT and they trap and play for a 0-0 game. If you reduce points for a OT and SO, more teams will stop being complacent and attack to score and break ties and get that extra point, instead of going to OT or SO where that much needed extra point can be a difference in 4th or 5th place. If you reward ties with a point each, then it goes back to tie the game, and sit back and trap. Once the game is tied 3-3 in the 3rd period with 2 minutes left, teams will still go hard to get that goal to get 3 pts, instead of oh theres 2 minutes guys bring out the trap we can still get 1 point by loosing in OT.

 

[me2]

I know you are trying to argue against shootouts, but you are actually helping my argument. By your admission, shootouts are reserved for the *most important games* in the biggest sport on the planet earth (inlcuding the World Cup... the biggest sporting event on the planet earth), yet they are unacceptable for some lousy Columbus vs. Anaheim mid-february NHL game to decide who gets 1 extra point? Come on, brah.

Shootouts are reserved for the equivalents of the playoffs in soccer (most major leagues/events) and are not used in the reg season. Should the NHL follow suit?

 

[me2]

If they must have a shootout just in the regular season, but continue the playoffs the same way as now, they have to redo the point system.

3 Pts Regulation Win
2 Pts Ot Win
1 Pt SO Win

Incentive to win in 60 minutes, more team will try to score and win.

I've been advocating this since shootouts were first floated. Its is the only reasonable way to do it. A shootout win should be worth less than a regulation win. 3 points a game is the best way to do it. It also makes every game worth 3 points, unlike the current system were random games are worth 3 points and others are worth just two.

 

[PecaFan]

It also makes every game worth 3 points, unlike the current system were random games are worth 3 points and others are worth just two.

Howzat? The system proposed:

3 Pts Regulation Win
2 Pts Ot Win
1 Pt SO Win

Looks like it gives 3 points in some games, 2 points in others (OT wins), and 1 point in others (SO win).

That said, I kind of like the system. It accurately reflects the values of the wins. A 4 on 4 overtime win is a bit "circussy", so it's worth less. A shootout "win" is essentially flipping a coin, so it's worth only a 1/3rd of a real win.

With this system, teams that go to overtime and shootouts will find themselves left behind in the standings, as it should be.

 

[helicecopter]

look at soccer...

just because GiGI Buffon is in net for italy and italy has

totti, vieri,Pirlo,Del Piero, and Cassano if extra Gilardino and many other to take the p/s... doesn't mean there going to win...

Just to note that the bolded name doesn't help your argument.. Del Piero in fact has always been a huge factor to make the Italian national team lose!

 

[helicecopter]

they have to redo the point system.

3 Pts Regulation Win
2 Pts Ot Win
1 Pt SO Win

Incentive to win in 60 minutes, more team will try to score and win.

I've been advocating this since shootouts were first floated. Its is the only reasonable way to do it. A shootout win should be worth less than a regulation win.

Btw, the way i would personally do it (but won't be the case of course) if shootouts are going to be used is this:
4 points for win in regulation.
3 points for win in overtime, 0 point for the overtime loser.
2 points for the shootout winner, 1 point for the shootout loser.

 

[Spungo*]

Shootouts are reserved for the equivalents of the playoffs in soccer (most major leagues/events) and are not used in the reg season. Should the NHL follow suit?

You must have missed the part where I said I wasn't arguing that EVERYTHING done in soccer should be done in hockey (playing with a ball instead of a puck, etc.).

I was pointing out the shootouts are a 100% accepted way to decide VASTLY more important sporting events. Thems just the facts.