News Article: News & Notes XXXV: You no help me now, I say f*** you Jobu, I do it myself

[Svechhammer]

Long-term, this works as an expansion of the State Fairgrounds as well. You can use it for some of the weekend markets with easy-access parking right behind, and part of the state fair space as well.

That could get some Ag Department $$ to make the changes as well.

You could really mold it to being whatever you want, but I would strategically angle it to be the one stop sports fan hub of this area first and foremost. Make it the one place people instinctively think to go to when they want to head to a bar to catch a Canes, State, or even Panthers game. And if you are able to get this build ASAP, you could turn it into the weekend hub of any big sporting event that comes to the area, like the Stadium Series, NHL Draft, or All Star Game. It just naturally works.

If you build something like this, people will come. If you build something like this and open it during a time when the Canes are a legitimately good team that makes annual trips to the playoffs, it would catch on immediately and be a big hit. Right off the bat, you know we'd have a Carolina Ale House as a part of this. You know Lucky B's would love to be a part of it, and I'm sure you could get one of the local breweries to have a location as well. Relocate The Eye to a store in the plaza opening up space within the arena, open a NC State merchandise store, and you have a good foundation under which this can be built out. Set up a permanent stage in the plaza itself for live bands to play during larger events, and there is no way that it won't be successful.

 

[SoupNazi]

The relocation game is very, very, very deep.

This is a false flag operation. Certainly Dundon is going to relocate the Canes to South America and really establish one of those horrible southern market teams.

 

[Svechhammer]

The more I think about this, the more sense it makes. You'd have people that normally wouldn't show up before the start of an event now showing up early to eat dinner at the bar before a game. You'd have people showing up early to have a drink or two in the venue before walking into the arena. An enlarged team store means you would be able to fit more people into the venue and in turn, move more merchandise in the long run. And by not having it physically within the arena, you don't run the risk of people thinking its only open during sporting events, which is a big problem right now.

This also opens up the possibility for the Canes to strategically ask for as many Saturday and Sunday games as possible to allow for more use of these facilities, which the team would encourage by hosting more elaborate events to bring larger crowds.

And then more importantly, you will also attract a crowd of people who don't have tickets, but would like to be a part of the event itself, and would just prefer to stick at the bar. And have the entire facility owned by Centennial Authority with Gale Force managing and leasing to the tenants and everyone makes more money in the end.

 

[Discipline Daddy]

Exactly. My wife and I went to Tampa in April and checked out Sparkman's Wharf, which is a short walk from the Amelie arena. We caught the last half of a Bolts game by the big screen. We ended up going there twice for dinner and once for a brewery during a short trip. It wouldn't be too hard to create a similar environment between Carter Finley and PNC.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

So... a mall attached to the rink, is what you're saying?

 

[Chrispy]

So... a mall attached to the rink, is what you're saying?

 

[Svechhammer]

So... a mall attached to the rink, is what you're saying?

Just the natural progression of pissing off northerners by copping every aspect of the Whale

 

[To Be Determined]

Dundon is secretly paying to have the arena lifted onto a large platform and relocated to somewhere in the Houston suburbs. My cable guy told me this.

this checks out, because to lift such a large building you'd need super strong cables. you talked to the right guy.

 

[To Be Determined]

Yeah, can't say anything bad about that. The Canes are a regional team, not a Raleigh one, and a downtown arena would shut out a large chunk of the fanbase. The location is ideal, and the extensive parking serves the regional fanbase. Not to mention it just costs a lot to build a new arena, and that juice just isn't going to be worth the squeeze, even if you do think you're going to get some marginal gain from going downtown.

a downtown arena frightens me because i really think it will be the death of tailgating. at least, on the level that makes a canes' game stand out from anywhere else.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

a downtown arena frightens me because i really think it will be the death of tailgating. at least, on the level that makes a canes' game stand out from anywhere else.

My guess is that Dundon doesn't particularly care where the arena is, so long as it's surrounded by successful businesses that make PNC a destination, which will drive ticket sales. But if they're gonna build some stuff around PNC, they need to go big, because they're basically gonna need to turn it into another Glenwood South if it's gonna work.

 

[GoCanes2015]

Once again, he loves having our name in the media as often as possible.

Jersey ads are inevitable. 30 years from now, you'll look back wondering how the NHL ever existed without corporate branding being a major part of a franchises' identity. But a sport like hockey is also going to spend a lot of time worrying about the aesthetics of such a venture, because they also care about selling merchandise, and people aren't going to buy up jerseys that look like billboards.

I would venture that the league advertising aesthetic ends up looking more like soccer than European hockey. One main brand that replaces the crest, maybe an ad on each shoulder, and a couple on the helmet. And one team that partners with RedBull to become RedBull hockey.

Don't soccer teams mainly sell 'clean' jerseys to fans without all the advertising? Seems like there would be some contractual language that limits the advertising to player/team jerseys? Otherwise you may have issues with licensing between product advertisers, clothing providers, etc.?

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

a downtown arena frightens me because i really think it will be the death of tailgating. at least, on the level that makes a canes' game stand out from anywhere else.

I love tailgating and it's fun. But I think from a Canes bottom-line perspective the "death" of it is not something Dundon would care about at all.

I'm speculating here and making wide assumptions about the market, but I would guess that if you are the type that isn't a diehard fan, a backyard BBQ with your friends would serve the same function. You're only tailgating if you've already bought a ticket, more than likely.

Meanwhile, making the arena a destination might actually bring new people to the table. The Braves have done that to big success here in Atlanta (the "outdoor shopping mall" model discussed earlier). The Battery is open 365 days a year, with fancy restaurants from local restauranteurs, stores, etc. The "best pizza in Atlanta", and at one point the "best burger in America" both jumped on the opportunity to expand when it was first announced. On a gameday it feels like pregaming at the Streets at Southpoint.

Even if you're not a hockey fan, if you can market a Canes game as a fun night out, you bring in new fans. Tailgating seems to me like a fun attribute of existing fans, not a draw for new ones.


EDIT: Once again @Navin R Slavin said the same thing in less words, with a reference to an area that way more people probably know.

 

[cptjeff]

Don't soccer teams mainly sell 'clean' jerseys to fans without all the advertising? Seems like there would be some contractual language that limits the advertising to player/team jerseys? Otherwise you may have issues with licensing between product advertisers, clothing providers, etc.?

Uh, no. Every soccer jersey I see on people in the wild, apart from national team ones, has a massive f***ing logo spattered across the front. That's a big part of what the sponsor is paying for, and the licensing is all worked out pretty easily with contracts on the front end.

 

[DaveG]

Don't soccer teams mainly sell 'clean' jerseys to fans without all the advertising? Seems like there would be some contractual language that limits the advertising to player/team jerseys? Otherwise you may have issues with licensing between product advertisers, clothing providers, etc.?

Not really on the clean kit front for soccer. Barca has had a few years where they did not have a sponsor on the front, 2017 most recently, but basically every other kit I've seen for sale had the sponsor(s) included at the club level. Even including my old Railhawks one.

For Euro hockey they do offer clean kits thankfully. Check the TPS Turku example in the main board rant fest.

 

[Svechhammer]

My guess is that Dundon doesn't particularly care where the arena is, so long as it's surrounded by successful businesses that make PNC a destination, which will drive ticket sales. But if they're gonna build some stuff around PNC, they need to go big, because they're basically gonna need to turn it into another Glenwood South if it's gonna work.

Doesn't even have to be Glenwood South, it just needs to be the North Hills for sports. And trust me, if they can make the shithole that was North Hills into a legitimate destination, they can do it anywhere.

Don't soccer teams mainly sell 'clean' jerseys to fans without all the advertising? Seems like there would be some contractual language that limits the advertising to player/team jerseys? Otherwise you may have issues with licensing between product advertisers, clothing providers, etc.?

No, the sponsors logos are a part of the uniform and are included on all forms of jersey sales (replica and authentic).

 

[Svechhammer]

I love tailgating and it's fun. But I think from a Canes bottom-line perspective the "death" of it is not something Dundon would care about at all.

I'm speculating here and making wide assumptions about the market, but I would guess that if you are the type that isn't a diehard fan, a backyard BBQ with your friends would serve the same function. You're only tailgating if you've already bought a ticket, more than likely.

Meanwhile, making the arena a destination might actually bring new people to the table. The Braves have done that to big success here in Atlanta (the "outdoor shopping mall" model discussed earlier). The Battery is open 365 days a year, with fancy restaurants from local restauranteurs, stores, etc. The "best pizza in Atlanta", and at one point the "best burger in America" both jumped on the opportunity to expand when it was first announced. On a gameday it feels like pregaming at the Streets at Southpoint.

Even if you're not a hockey fan, if you can market a Canes game as a fun night out, you bring in new fans. Tailgating seems to me like a fun attribute of existing fans, not a draw for new ones.


EDIT: Once again @Navin R Slavin said the same thing in less words, with a reference to an area that way more people probably know.

Bingo. If they do it right, they can make a venue that doesn't necessarily kill tailgating so much as it would bring in a new crowd that otherwise wouldn't make its way to the arena complex for a game. Those people would eat and drink at the bars, make their way into the team store and maybe make some small purchases, and spend money they normally wouldn't, all bubbling up to the pockets of Gale Force and Centennial Authority. And if they really knock it out of the park, people would go even during times where there aren't any events going on. And in a situation like that, you'll probably see some high density apartments built soon thereafter with people wanting to live in the vicinity much like we are seeing pop up all over the region right now (which would also be very attractive due to the proximity to Wade Avenue/440/40). Maybe add a bus/shuttle that just runs people back and forth between there and Glenwood South just to seamlessly move people between the two.

And in the end, I think the team would prefer this kind of setup rather than moving downtown, because it gives them the opportunity to have their cake and eat it, too. If they move downtown, while they might get more people in the door because of proximity to a destination, they're also not pocketing any of the proceeds from food, drink, and merchandise sales in the surrounding vicinity. If they build up their own district around the arena, they could be the operator and landlord of the venue able to negotiate being able to pocket a portion of proceeds as part of the agreement for a restaurant or bar to operate there.

 

[A Star is Burns]

As an out-of-towner, I would love a complex like you guys are describing. I come down for anywhere from 2-10 games a year. Normally, I just spend a couple of hours in the hotel after driving down until it's closer to time for the gates to open. I would definitely go eat and shop around if that was an option and it's at my ultimate destination.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Doesn't even have to be Glenwood South, it just needs to be the North Hills for sports. And trust me, if they can make the shithole that was North Hills into a legitimate destination, they can do it anywhere.

North Hills had a lot of infrastructure in place, though, even if they had to tear a lot of it up, but yes. It can be done anywhere. It's not rocket science.

But it does require commitment from the property owners, and as far as I know, that's still state owned property, which has been one of the stumbling blocks all along.

 

[To Be Determined]

If they do it right, they can make a venue that doesn't necessarily kill tailgating so much as it would bring in a new crowd that otherwise wouldn't make its way to the arena complex for a game.

this is what i'm hoping for - i like the location of the arena and would like to see the surrounding area improved instead of moving to a new arena. while the ownership of the nearby land by the state is an issue as someone mentioned, i think it can be overcome. and there really is no limit to what could be done around the arena with a budget even half of what a new one would cost.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

this is what i'm hoping for - i like the location of the arena and would like to see the surrounding area improved instead of moving to a new arena. while the ownership of the nearby land by the state is an issue as someone mentioned, i think it can be overcome. and there really is no limit to what could be done around the arena with a budget even half of what a new one would cost.

Yeah, that's the thing: the only costs the state would bear would be infrastructure. I'm pretty sure that if the state basically got out of the way, any number of property developers would show up with competing full mixed use plans overnight.

Now get the commuter rail that stops at the fairgrounds please.

 

[Svechhammer]

Yeah, that's the thing: the only costs the state would bear would be infrastructure. I'm pretty sure that if the state basically got out of the way, any number of property developers would show up with competing full mixed use plans overnight.

Now get the commuter rail that stops at the fairgrounds please.

I mean one of the biggest hangups over the use of this land in the past has been the barring of alcohol sales on public property, as well as the banning of alcohol sales at college sporting events. Well, now that all those barriers have been lifted with alcohol sales allowed going forward, it should make it that much easier to get something worked out.

 

[NotOpie]

I think this has more to do with trying to pressure the city into building a downtown arena within the next 10 years, or at least to encourage enough nightlife growth around the current facilities to not make it an issue.

With all the discussion about near-PNC development, that seems like the easiest, most cost-effective, and highest revenue generating plan for all involved. The state wins by either leasing or selling the land PLUS they see sales tax revenues likely bumped in some minor way.

Long-term, this works as an expansion of the State Fairgrounds as well.

One thing I've wondered is if the fairgrounds won't someday be moved farther out of town. I know Virginia did this quite a few years ago. It would just make too much sense. There is infrastructure costs involved but all of those could be factored in when selling/leasing the existing land. If some of that fairgrounds land was also available for the type of development that @Svechhammer suggests, it would make this discussion more realistic.

Bingo. If they do it right, they can make a venue that doesn't necessarily kill tailgating so much as it would bring in a new crowd that otherwise wouldn't make its way to the arena complex for a game.

I mean, I could easily see folks starting with their own tailgate, grabbing a quick drink before puck drop, and then having appetizers and a night cap post game.

The key, however, would be to have some more public transportation options....to get folks back to downtown, North Raleigh, Cary/Apex/Holly Springs, Durham, and Chapel Hill....at least that would make my life easier.

 

[Svechhammer]

One thing I've wondered is if the fairgrounds won't someday be moved farther out of town. I know Virginia did this quite a few years ago. It would just make too much sense. There is infrastructure costs involved but all of those could be factored in when selling/leasing the existing land. If some of that fairgrounds land was also available for the type of development that @Svechhammer suggests, it would make this discussion more realistic.

Alright now that you've mentioned it, lets consider the options if the state decides that we can open up the land in and around the Fairgrounds for commercial and residential use.

Access to major highway? Check - its the intersection of I-40 and 440.
Access to major airport? Check - RDU is 9 miles by car from PNC
Access to rail? Check - there is a rail line across the street from the fairgrounds that could have a stop added for potential future light rail use

You're talking about a location ripe for prime real estate that would be developed rapidly.

 

[Tryamw]

Seems an arena lease extension is almost done:

So this is when we get relocated to Quebec?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Right off the bat, you know we'd have a Carolina Ale House as a part of this. You know Lucky B's would love to be a part of it, and I'm sure you could get one of the local breweries to have a location as well. Relocate The Eye to a store in the plaza opening up space within the arena, open a NC State merchandise store, and you have a good foundation under which this can be built out.

* and a Bojangles