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News Article: News & Notes XXXIII: hockey pending

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Joe McGrath

Joe McGrath

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DaveG said:
Not inaccurate, though imo Seabrook had a better peak. Definitely scored more big goals.

Vlasic maybe?
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Lowe was never as good defensively as Vlasic IMO, but the game was completely different too. I think of Vlasic as more of a modern day Rod Langway.

I said Seabrook mostly because he’s got the 3 cups on a dynasty. It was a lazy comparison to be fair.
 
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DaveG

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Niskanen might be a good comparable if he had been part of Pittsburgh's cups. #2 dman but clearly multiple tiers below the #1 on those teams to the point that he might as well have been a 3 or 4.

Maybe Hjalmarson or Daneyko if we want to go with dmen from quasi dynasty teams, though Lowe was better than both (though not by much).
 
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Joe McGrath

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DaveG said:
Niskanen might be a good comparable if he had been part of Pittsburgh's cups. #2 damn but clearly multiple tiers below the #1 on those teams to the point that he might as well have been a 3 or 4.

Maybe Hjalmarson or Daneyko if we want to go with dmen from quasi dynasty teams, though Lowe was better than both (though not by much).
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Daneyko is a really good one though I agree Lowe was a better player for sure.
 
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bleedgreen

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Azor Aho said:
I guess if you want to argue things I didn't say, that's cool. I'm not saying his best years came in Carolina. No shit he played better during his prime. Once again, a lot of the best arguments for players getting in are awards, Cups, leadership. That happened in Carolina. And once again, his resume obviously includes great, productive years in Philly where that stuff didn't happen.

And while the whole of his career was obviously better in Philly, one could certainly argue a season where he garnered some Hart Votes (certainly not a ton, but didn't happen during his prime), won the Cup as a Captain, won the Selke, and very arguably should have won the Conn Smythe is up there in his career.

But once again, making the argument of his recent time with the Canes and accomplishments with the Canes is not to say that his best years didn't come elsewhere. Just that I think where those accomplishments occurred and that being the most recent portion of his career is a factor. And again, I do think he'll get in eventually, but deserved it sooner.

We'll likely just have to agree to disagree.
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You said his career highlights happened in Carolina. I know you’re talking specifically the trophy’s but it came off that everything important he did happened in Carolina. It’s just a discussion, my bigger point was to the concept that there’s a Carolina bias working against him. I think if anything it worked for him, and it probably extended his career to boot.

We do agree, in that he’s getting in eventually. Hossa gets a ton of respect because not only was he prolific, he was a legit two way player and he did go to multiple teams winning cups. He always was talked about in terms of how he didn’t sacrifice defense for offense. Being a scorer matters for the hall, fair or not and Hossa was a dangerous scorer pretty much the whole time on top of the cups. It’s an equal resume at least, and I’m not shocked he got in off a heads up comparison with Rod. Also not shocked some are on the other side of the conversation but we as a group are pretty biased for Rod.

Big issue is just Rod should be in by now, and you wish he wasn’t subject to such comparisons against tough competition every year.
 
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BHD

BHD

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Nothing against Niskanen, but his name speaks to where the bar is. During his prime, he was #2 guy - nothing more, nothing less - on a legit team (behind Letang in Pittsburgh and Carlson in Washington).

Ask this question, say, 5 years go, and Gonchar and (maybe) Letang would be the only Pens dmen I would consider being HOF-worthy. Now, Kevin freakin' Lowe gets in?
 
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DaveG

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BHD said:
Nothing against Niskanen, but his name speaks to where the bar is. During his prime, he was #2 guy - nothing more, nothing less - on a legit team (behind Letang in Pittsburgh and Carlson in Washington).

Ask this question, say, 5 years go, and Gonchar and (maybe) Letang would be the only Pens dmen I would consider being HOF-worthy. Now, Kevin freakin' Lowe gets in?
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Yep. I mean I can't say that norms hadn't already been lowered significantly in recent years for frigin Phil Housley to get in, he at least had the stats to get in as a pure compiler despite never being anywhere near the top tier guys of his generation at the (admittedly pretty stacked at the time) position. It's like the HHOF realized they made a mistake on that one and went in the other extreme... with someone that's even less deserving of being there. Of course it's the HHOF, with zero transparency in their process, so of course every few years we have to have one of their buddies that has absolutely no business getting in that slips in somehow, they just usually have individual hardware (Carbo) or stats (Andreychuk, Housley) to get them in. This is the first time since probably frigin Dick Duff back in 06 (good god has it been that long?) where the only reason they got in is "because Cups"

Tanger has to be a lock now after this. Same with Subban, Weber (though they were both likely getting in anyway cuz Habs), Suter (arguably both of them but Gary was a prick), hell even Seabrook. It says a ton when the comparables for a selection like this are Niskanen, Vlasic, Wesley, and Daneyko and it doesn't feel like a major stretch to compare the players.
 
bleedgreen

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Those Oilers teams of the 80’s have always been put on a pedestal, in some ways it’s fair. There’s no good modern day comparison to them. Recent Pens teams don’t cut it. The closest I saw in talent was the Pens teams in the early 90’s.

I think the Montreal teams that were dominant way back ended up having many guys on the team get to the hall? Maybe like a Lowe? I’m not saying it’s right but the hall likely favors the guys who were big parts of those kind of dynasties. Niskanen? No. Doughty should get in, maybe Letang though he may be a stretch.

It’s unfair to an extent but being part of a dynasty gives you extra points in this competition. Lowe never would’ve made it purely off his play. His arrival in NY was pretty huge for the Rangers too. He was a legend whether the stats back it up or not. It’s hard trying to apply stats to a completely different era.
 
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BHD

BHD

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DaveG said:
Tanger has to be a lock now after this. Same with Subban, Weber (though they were both likely getting in anyway cuz Habs), Suter (arguably both of them but Gary was a prick), hell even Seabrook. It says a ton when the comparables for a selection like this are Niskanen, Vlasic, Wesley, and Daneyko and it doesn't feel like a major stretch to compare the players.
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That's what I'm getting at. It went from the Hall of Fame to the Hall of Very Good, and is arguably now just the Hall of Good. I can imagine in 2040, we could be saying stuff like... "That guy won't get in? He must not have been that good then." Depending on how you view the HoF, it downplays the sanctity of the whole thing.
 
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DaveG

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Ironically one of those Habs dynasty guys remains to this day one if the biggest snubs in HHOF history: JC Tremblay. Even before his move to the WHA he had a significantly better claim to get in than Lowe ever has had.

Pete Mahovlich from those teams remains a snub as well, I'd easily have either in over Lowe.

Fwiw I'm not sold that the Wings weren't just about the same level of team. But unlike the Habs or Oilers the teams that were at the same level were peaking at the same time in the Devils and Avs.
 
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DaveG

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BHD said:
That's what I'm getting at. It went from the Hall of Fame to the Hall of Very Good, and is arguably now just the Hall of Good. I can imagine in 2040, we could be saying stuff like... "That guy won't get in? He must not have been that good then." Depending on how you view the HoF, it downplays the sanctity of the whole thing.
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I, for one, am looking forward to the 2048 induction class of Brian Dumoulin and Brett Pesce.
 
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BHD

BHD

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bleedgreen said:
... maybe Letang though he may be a stretch.
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Letang's situation is unique. He's a skilled defensemen who happens to play on a team with two(?) generational talents. However, he's never been one of the best at his position for a full season. He has never a) been able to play enough games or b) been as good as other guys when healthy. He has, however, always been a Top 10/15 defenceman - which is definitely good enough for the Pens to be competitive.
 
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Nikishin Go Boom

Nikishin Go Boom

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3 years of flat cap, yikes. Bridge deals for Svech and Necas. Hopefully someone takes Gardiner, Skjei, and Nino (c’mon Seattle).
 
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