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News and Notes XXII: Now With More Finnish!

Discussion in 'Carolina Hurricanes' started by garnetpalmetto, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. Finlandia WOAT

    Finlandia WOAT Bench Bradford

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    it'd be pretty cracker jack if the gm who did nothing to change the status quo of his team then fired the coach because the status quo wasn't good enough.

    people notice that stuff too.
     
  2. Stickpucker

    Stickpucker Playmaka

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    Mrazek with a shutout for the Flyers last night after facing 28 shots getting them 2 points.
     
  3. NotOpie

    NotOpie "Puck don't lie"

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    My point is that there is talent and, for whatever reason, it is unrealized. This team has shown it can compete with teams like LA, FL, CBJ, and at the beginning of the year, I felt they were on par talent-wise with NJ, PHI, NYI, and NYR. They showed flashes of talented play against some or all of these teams. But they often don't show up, look confused, or worse, apathetic and heartless. I think that manifests itself as looking less talented than they are.

    Yes, they are professionals and they have a responsibility to play up to their talents. That doesn't absolve the coaching staff from putting them in a position to do so. Nor does it absolve the coaching staff from making changes when things aren't working, tweaking a system instead of merely illogically mixing certain lines. While not the only thing, a big part of winning is motivation. The guys have a self-motivation responsibility, they are professionals after all, but good coaches augment that motivation, some to a significant extent....they simply know how to get the most out of their players. When guys appear disinterested, that can be all on them, or it can be somewhat laid at the feet of the coaching staff. There's plenty of blame to go around, but to put this performance solely at the feet of the players, IMO, is to only see part of the problem.

    In the case of Ryan, Stempniak, and PDG, apparently so. But I'm not blind enough to miss the cognitive dissonance of the fact that Skinner, Faulk, and Rask's performance is less than optimal too.

    This is a true conundrum. These three guys, performing at their historical average, probably looking forward to whether or not we could push up to the 6th playoff seed.

    Agree wholeheartedly on the vagaries of drafting and maybe even missed trade/UFA opportunities.

    I feel it bears repeating that I don't want either Francis or Peters fired....yet. There are things both have done that are very solid, even pretty darn good.

    I do think that Francis could have taken more calculated risks this season to have put us in a better position. I do think, like all GMs, he's had a few draft misses. And most recently expectations have been set that aren't being met. However, by and large, he's done a fine job of rebuilding a franchise that had no depth and very little talent.

    Peters has implemented a system that seemingly gets a lot out of guys who are marginal talents. His system, when cooking, is tough to play against and, yes, even can be offensively daunting. He also seems to be well regarded in the league with many vocal advocates. Yet, he seems to lose the room periodically (if not completely), has players that apparently feel stifled (or just are stifled) offensively, and often illogically constructs lines that hopelessly cannot click. But he has a responsibility to win and his team isn't doing that. While we all would like even more talent on the squad, you cannot expect this coach to go blameless.

    Francis should be expected to add even more talent this Summer and Peters should be expected to win significantly more games next season....and there should be no question as to whether or not the team is playoff caliber.
     
  4. Joe McGrath

    Joe McGrath Registered User

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    If I were Francis I would probably fire Peters. I think his system is fine and all that but there isn’t any evidence that He has any motivational abilities, personality management skills, or most importantly, the ability to stop playing Derek ****ing Ryan in important situations like goddamn overtime. He, like Francis, doesn’t appear to have brain 1 when it comes to goaltending.

    And he doesn’t have any consistent vision for the utilizing his players. At first he liked forward pairs, which was either a Francis thing, or a collaboration. That’s obviously gone because it didn’t actually work. Now he just throws **** at the wall and hopes it sticks on seemingly a period by period basis. The last straw on this was having Aho at center in practice Monday, saying after practice he’s going to stay at center for a while and then moving him back to wing for the morning skate. I just have no confidence that he has any idea what he’s doing with his players at this point.
     
  5. Stickpucker

    Stickpucker Playmaka

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    One thing I liked I recall Mueller doing was putting his best offensive/transitional D out with his best forward groups.

    Peters seems to do the opposite only focusing on defensive matchups and coaching in a very reactionary manner letting other teams dictate the game.
     
  6. geehaad

    geehaad Registered User

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    Not that this is a rebuttal to Joe's post above, and the criticism of the edict "Aho will be playing center for the near future" notwithstanding, but I think Peters has very specific targets in mind when he constructs pairings and lines. For instance, against BOS last night, he went with Hanifin-Pesce. That may seem like a "throw it at the wall and hope it sticks" move, but I don't think he was making an attempt of icing Hanifin-Pesce as a regular pairing in the future. Instead, I give him credit for -- an attempt, anyway -- trying to exploit an opponent's weakness or to shore up a weakness in his own lineup as it relates to how the opponent has been shown to use their attack/defense. As I hope anyone here can admit, such strategies would be opaque to us casual fans and would give off the appearance of line juggling for no apparent reason. Not saying that's absolutely the case in all cases, nor that it was absolutely the case in the 2/27 game against BOS, just that it's a possibility that we can't ignore.
     
  7. Joe McGrath

    Joe McGrath Registered User

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    That’s very true, and some of the juggling he does I can follow the logic, like splitting up Skinner and Ryan for this game for example. There’s other time where he is probably doing something that makes sense in his mind that I can’t follow and has poor results. The Kings game for example, up 4-0 after 1 period and that line combination was never seen again. Maybe he has his reasons, and they are probably legitimate, but from the outside looking in a lot of time it defies my simple logic.
     
  8. SvechniCanesCup2019

    SvechniCanesCup2019 make Svech happen

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    We've already had a long discussion earlier this season about how Peters tailors a Faulk-Slavin + Hanifin-Pesce deployment versus Slavin-Pesce + Hanifin-Faulk deployment given the opposing team make-up. The Bruins rolled two strong lines all night and Peters went with a balanced approach.
     
  9. geehaad

    geehaad Registered User

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    Absolutely. And in fairness to your criticism, in the end, results are all that matters to us, though, and clearly the results have been sucky, overall. The results could have other things adversely affect them, like poor execution, outstanding play from opponents, and "puck luck", but *something* has to change. And for all the love that folks around here want to lavish on Lavi, that love has no choice but to plainly ignore the fact that Paul (****ing) Maurice took Lavi's flagging team to the ECF in 2009. Sometimes a coaching change works, even though the coach is the "GOAT" (according to some).

    The thing I've never understood is the demand that lines not be changed; I understand the logic in believing line chemistry is a valid benefit, but when your team is routinely not playing playoff-grade hockey, perhaps line chemistry is too fickle to be worthy of sticking with it through bad stretches.
     
  10. Ole Gil

    Ole Gil Registered User

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    When you tick off the names of skaters who've been a problem during Peters reign, it's E. Staal, Justin Faulk, Jeff Skinner, Victor Rask, Elias Lindholm, and you could probably add Hanifin and Fleury.

    How many former All-stars and 1st rounders do you want to ship out when there's a good chance the coach is the root of the problem.

    Eric Staal looks like he's going to be a hall of famer with ease. And we dumped him at 32 because Peters couldn't get more than 33 points in 63 games out of him. Now he has 33 goals in 63 games.

    Maybe the Skip Bayless-style hot takes are right. Maybe Eric wasn't trying, and on top of that, his not trying wasn't in any way related to Peters. But you better be awfully sure before overhauling a roster of what you thought was young talented players, because if they go out the door and start lighting it up somewhere else, there's no undo button.


    On the flip side, what's the risk that Bill Peters is one of the best coaches in the NHL right now?
     
    Bo Time, cptjeff, Azor Aho and 7 others like this.
  11. CandyCanes

    CandyCanes Canes **3

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    I'd like to know our win-loss record when Slavin- Pesce play together and for when they play separately. I can't recall the Canes winning many games when they play on separate pairings an entire night.
     
  12. vorbis

    vorbis i am here 2 chew bubblegum and like posts Sponsor

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    in fairness to coach Bill Bob Peters, last offseason it was reported that Aho himself said he wasn't quite ready for playing C full time, and it was implied that he had said as much in meetings with coach and management. not sure if that is a factor in him not playing at C very much this season, but it's at least a possible factor, especially since he's still ~6 weeks out from a nasty concussion/knee injury.
     
  13. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

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    If team looks good some of the time against some teams, I don’t think it follows that they’re as talented as most teams they play. Especially not when often they look overwhelmed.

    I would venture to say that the reason they often look bad is because they actually are bad. The very best players on the team (Aho and Slavin) are borderline to be top-60 players leaguewide. The only other teams that can make such a claim are really ugly squads like Arizona and Vancouver. The only way to survive that lack of top-end talent is to have outstanding depth, and our depth players are largely garbage, particularly at center. The fact that the goalies are also terrible is just a cherry on top. Nothing about this group on paper suggests they should be any better than their record.

    The scary thing is, what if Necas turns out to be another Lindholm-level flop? What do we even have to build around in 2 years if that happens? Skinner has to be ready to walk, Jordan will be past his best years. The talent situation up front is actually pretty darn grim if we don’t have either Necas or some unknown acquisition turn out to be a blue-chip star.

    I do think Francis has gotten terribly unlucky in some respects, but at this same time... the situation is what it is. We are not poised to compete after Year 4. If anything, on paper we look closer to the bottom than to the top.

    Literally every fanbase in the league accuses their coach of failing to tweak the system, making nonsense lineup decisions, and failing to motivate players. Every single coach gets hit with this unless they’re at the top of their division. How much is real, and how much is a matter of fans simply not knowing what’s actually going on?

    I couldn’t tell you if Peters has tweaked his system this season. Like, I literally have no idea. He could have made 50 tweaks and it would be virtually invisible to me. I think that’s probably the case for basically anyone who’s watching as a fan, because we usually don’t even know where to look for changes. Small things like telling the D to hold the line more aggressively against a particular opponent are going to be perceived as individual players’ decisions, and we never even realize a tweak was made.

    What I do know, is that you rarely if ever see a coach make dramatic, noticeable changes to a system mid-season. When it does happen, it seems to be more about changes in personnel than anything else (like how the Canes used to change their defensive structure in front of Justin Peters). That’s why the GM has to be in tune with the coach’s needs — and it seems that the opposite is the case here.

    I don’t think it’s a matter of laying this at the feet of one person or another, but I do think we’ve reached a point with this group where they indisputably need more talent if they are going to reach the next level. A new coach might shake things up for 2 weeks, but at the end of the day we just don’t have the horses to be successful long term. So while a coaching change might soon be necessary as a matter of effecting a change in attitudes and culture, I do think it’s closer to a scapegoat move than anything.
     
  14. bleedgreen

    bleedgreen Registered User

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    I agree with Tarheels post about Peters and coaching changes being overrated. Like he says changing the coach might make things better for two weeks but systems are systems and they all work when the players buy in and do their jobs.

    More talent makes any system look better. Quenneville looked amazing with early 20’s Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook and ridiculous depth. No that’s all past and Hawks fans think he’s an idiot who doesn’t know how to fill out his lineup card and “lost the room”. Sounds familiar when I read their comments. Talent makes coaches look brilliant.
     
  15. CandyCanes

    CandyCanes Canes **3

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    As crazy as if it sounds, I know most of you all will be highly against this, and very doubtful the front office would ever consider something like this. But I almost think the Canes might need to consider a quick mini 1 year rebuild to restructure this team as the way it's built I don't think it's ever going to overcome being a bubble team. They just don't have the correct personal to ever get them out of mediocrity.

    I'd seriously consider trading guys like Skinner, Faulk, & Rask at the coming NHL draft. I just really can't imagine those guys ever playing on a successful team.

    Then cutting guys out of the roster like Nordstrom, Ryan, PDG, Stempniak.

    2019 would likely be a really suck ass season. But use it as an opportunity to take long looks at Wallmark, Zykov, Foegele, Necas, Bean, McKeown, Gauthier, Roy, etc. And see who might be worth building around for the following season.

    We moved out our old core of players (Skinner, Faulk, Rask) that hopefully helped us acquire another handful of picks and prospects. Well it's 2020 draft day and we're sitting on a high lottery pick and a butt load of assets. Spend a ton of those assets on guys similar to what we're currently seeing available recently. (Karlsson, Brassard, Hoffman, Kane, Patches, etc). Grab a few of those guys that you feel fits the system. Shop hard on free agency too with plans to compete in 2020.

    You've now gutted part of your core that I feel was dragging us down. Then got to take long looks at some guys that could very likely have good upcoming NHL futures, hopefully pinpointing a few of those as solid NHL players. You've then added a possible high end talent with that 2020 first round pick from the year of sucking. And that 2020 off season we were able to find guys that better fit the system than Skinner, Rask, and Faulk did and are ready to compete again with a fresh new look.
     
  16. Stickpucker

    Stickpucker Playmaka

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    @bleedgreen you seem content with Peters and Francis decisions and want to keep them around.

    You seem content to keep Darling. Using these assumptions how does Carolina make the playoffs after missing 9 years in a row?
     
  17. Blueline Bomber

    Blueline Bomber From the Blueline

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    The only option, assuming everything remains basically the same, is that the players put forth a better effort than they did this year. Faulk and Skinner get their heads on straight. Hanifin and Slavin don't have down years, etc.
     
  18. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

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    The devil is in the details, but I think we’ve reached the point that we have to start considering something like this.

    I wonder what we’d have to add to Faulk to get Karlsson.
     
  19. CanesInducedComa

    CanesInducedComa DUNDO, PLZ!

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    Would Karlsson even want to come here? It's easy to rag on the Senators now but we're not in much better shape.
     
  20. MinJaBen

    MinJaBen Canes Sharks Boy Sponsor

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    You almost have to do this with Skinner and Faulk. Both are in the top five of active players in games played without playing in the playoffs and both need new contracts in the next two years. What could we possibly say to make them say without a gross over payment? At this point, smart asset management says move them if you can get a good return.
     
  21. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

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    Playing here would be a ****ing cakewalk compared to staying in Ottawa.

    Apparently his contract has a 10-team NTC, so that’s a factor.
     
  22. bleedgreen

    bleedgreen Registered User

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    I’m not content at all about Darling. If you read the posts the days around us trading for him I said I wasn’t as convinced he was as good as advertised heading into the off season. I watched him plenty for the Hawks and was not ever that impressed. I thought it was a good educated guess for our next chance, so I supported it and gave it a chance. I also saw it as RF being aggressive which he gets criticism for not being.

    What I’m saying about Darling is there’s no easy play there, and I don’t think they’re gonna have a choice they feel comfortable with other than keeping him. From what I’ve seen of RF and his style, as well as watching JR work with the limitations of the market in terms of FA willingness and budget issues I’m not convinced there’s a better option either. Maybe the new owner is willing to buy out, but I’m just not convinced. We’ll see.

    Peters to me turned non potable sprinkler water from the golf course down the street into mildy acceptable wine when he took over. It was minor league team that was boring to watch. His system brought out whatever skill the guys had and made the d way more aggressive. It was immediately more pleasing to the eye and I thought us a better team, but like all coaches he needs the horses and he’s run out of tricks to make this team look better than it is. A new coach won’t change much to me, Id like to see Peters coach better talent before deciding he’s the issue. I don’t think he hindered Staal at all, or any of the others. Faulk has had success with Peters, he was fine until this year. Skinner was at his best last year. Rask blossomed under Peters. Those guys can’t blame the coach.

    I myself think the coaching thing can be overrated but I was impressed with Peters enough to believe it’s not him. I don’t know who else would do better, Peters has a lot of respect around the league. We don’t hear it from our broadcasts but it’s true.

    I believe in RF for sure. We needed to rebuild from within and the sad truth is that we were so short on talent that we need more time doing it. We aren’t there yet, and no one really believes we were. I think he’s made sound decisions and before this season I’m not sure he had made a bad move. I’m still not sure he did, Kruger is the only one I really disliked and that could’ve been forced on him to make TVR happen and to keep Vegas away from anyone else.

    I think RF has had a sound plan that I didn’t expect playoffs from for sure until next year. I think we’ve been better this year and looked the part of bubble team longer. By this time last year I didn’t have any hope and I do still have some for this season. Of course I’m a little biased about RF, I’m a Whalers guy but I think his plan deserves another year.

    If he doesn’t address anything this off season and we don’t make the playoffs next year I think I’d agree with cleaning house. I just didn’t have anything riding emotionally on this deadline as I feel this season is going pretty close to as planned. I don’t think they should veer off the grand scheme for anything yet. The right moves haven’t been there.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  23. CanesInducedComa

    CanesInducedComa DUNDO, PLZ!

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    Yeah, maybe in regards to the Canadian media circus and ownership, it would be easier, but at least Ottawa will have some nice picks coming up this year and next, so they could potentially rebuild pretty quick if they play their cards right. But I don't see us being that much more desirable with our perpetual rebuild. If he accepts a trade to somewhere or leaves in free agency, I'm sure he'll probably go to a contender who offers the most money.
     
  24. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

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    Ottawa's at the point of total locker room meltdown and players wanting out of the organization. That's probably the one franchise other than maybe Arizona where we can actually make a case that we're a better place to be stranded. And they happen to be openly marketing a superstar RHD, which happens to be almost the only position where we have extra assets to swap with them as a replacement. There's a potential for a match that would satisfy all parties, especially if Dundon is willing to throw serious money into the equation.

    The trick is that Dorion is looking for a franchise type player in return, and of course we don't have that. But what if we package Skinner AND Faulk? Does he look at that, I don't know.
     
  25. bleedgreen

    bleedgreen Registered User

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    I think Karlsson could possibly have played his best hockey already, and despite him at 80% still being pretty darn good he’s not a guy I’d want to pay 12 million for if I was any team. He’s about to capitalize on past success, let someone else pay that tab. The Sens got his best years imo. Trade him for everything you can get and move on with a clear conscious.

    I’d be interested in Duchene or Hoffman though.
     

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