NCAA Amateurism to Go Back Under Courtroom Spotlight in Jenkins Trial

SCBlueLiner

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Dec 27, 2013
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College football is absolutely huge in the Southeast and in Big Ten & Big Twelve country in the Midwest. In many states it is on par or greater than the NFL.

Way, way back in the early 1900's there were only 3 sports covered by the newspapers in a majority of the U.S. Baseball, boxing, and college football, those were the big 3. Pro football didn't really start to take hold until the late 60's and into the 70's. Look at the attendance and halftime act for Super Bowl 1 .
 

sandysan

Registered User
Dec 7, 2011
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Some of those are so big its like "heres our football team....oh and we have a school btw"
I think that some coaches are paid better than coaches in the NFL ( like saban at alabama).

And with all that money, the talent gets bubkis. how that is equitable has never been properly explained to me.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
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Can you summarize what she said? When I press play, they want me to use my Google, FB or some other sign in. I'm kind of tired of having to provide personal information just to see email or news sites. Google was asking me for my cell phone number so I could check the site email -- which was fine to do for many years now until this recent check. This is all getting pretty pathetic.
 
Feb 7, 2012
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Can you summarize what she said? When I press play, they want me to use my Google, FB or some other sign in. I'm kind of tired of having to provide personal information just to see email or news sites. Google was asking me for my cell phone number so I could check the site email -- which was fine to do for many years now until this recent check. This is all getting pretty pathetic.


Basically talked the big dollars, national branding, partnerships with Adidas and UW, product testing. Gives a little more showing to how big College football is..and really how its amateur sports in only name only.
 
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Newsworthy

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UW just signed a 10 year appeal deal worth roughly 120 million over the term. 12 million a year.

Meanwhile The entirity of MLS signed a deal for 6 years at 700 million. Which is around 117 million a year divided by 23 teams.

College Football in many areas are considered on par with the NFL if not greater. Like in Ohio. I think the Buckeyes are a bigger deal than the Browns or the Bengals.

At a popularity level, College Football is right there with other major professional sports.
Many states like Alabama, Kentucky, Wyoming, Iowa, South Carolina, Mississippi etc.don't have professional sports teams other than some local random minor league baseball team
College sports means everything to them. A lot of national pride. Also the talent level is top flight at many of these universities. The fact that these players are playing for the love of the game and arent yet paid for
Millions is intriguing.
Football is really America's game and College Basketball to me is so much better than NBA.
Factor in things like legalized sports gambling and the chance to see these players live up close in person and I have a recipe for success.
These games are nationally televised.
Comparable to this would be but not on par is hockey under 18 tournaments that are huge draws in Canada.
 

Radical Realignment

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Jun 14, 2015
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si.com recently had an interesting article on the legality surrounding video games based on college sports (primarily men's basketball and football). Seems that the reason why big developers like EA aren't currently making games is because they cannot directly compensate the athletes - both current and former - whose names and likenesses they want to use in games. That got me to thinking ... perhaps the best solution to the issue is for the NCAA to get over its "amateurism" pretense when it comes to collegiate sports.

For perspective (and, as a sidebar, not one I'm willing to debate for the sake of this discussion), I'm one of those who has completely abandoned watching the Olympics because I so dislike the turn away from amateurism and toward corporate marketing and inclusion of professional athletes (starting the America's "Dream Team" of basketball, but continuing onward from that, including NHL players). I truly enjoyed the Olympics as an event that was designed based on "the spirit of competition" rather than on who was winning the competition. But, like the NCAA, the toothpaste is out of the tube. The Olympics, like the big NCAA sports, isn't about amateurism anymore, it's about the business of the events.

Time to accept reality.

So while it's difficult to mandate, or even agree upon an acceptable rate of compensation of collegiate athletes (how much more, over room and board and free courses should certain athletes of Men's basketball get than anyone who gets a free ride for, say men's or women's volleyball), why not think of another way to help athletes capitalize on the work they do on behalf of their universities?

Why not just lift the restriction on a collegiate athlete to monetize their craft from a third party?

Instead of the university (or college) giving the compensation, let the athletes bargain their own compensation from third parties, like EA, or Nike, or whoever, based on their exposure? That lets the universities maintain equitable compensation for all athletes (likely helping to comply with laws like Title IX), while giving those athletes who help earn them the most exposure and revenue, a chance to cash in on that exposure (both during and after their time in college).
 

PhantomGumBee

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Apr 25, 2018
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I've always thought the title IX implications were by far the biggest hinderence. It could theoretically kill many female basketball programs.

-Yea but keep in mind that the national sports leagues operate a free farm system to pluck finished products socially, physically, and mentally ready for the pros. With no obligation to invest personally in said athletes devolopment the have less to loose. Title 9 would be rough but wouldn’t it be wrong to assume that salaries would be based on tickets sales and jersey sales , it could help drive the payment
 

BigBadBruins7708

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Dec 11, 2017
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-Yea but keep in mind that the national sports leagues operate a free farm system to pluck finished products socially, physically, and mentally ready for the pros. With no obligation to invest personally in said athletes devolopment the have less to loose. Title 9 would be rough but wouldn’t it be wrong to assume that salaries would be based on tickets sales and jersey sales , it could help drive the payment

no because Title IX doesnt care about those factors.

Also, basing it on ticket sales would not help the athletes. People do not buy tickets to see a certain player at the college level, they buy them because of the laundry.

Duke is selling out every single game it plays with or without Grayson Allen or Zion Williamson.

Hockey and Baseball also operate free farm systems, dont forget the top picks/stars dont play AHL. They go straight to the big club.
 

PhantomGumBee

Registered User
Apr 25, 2018
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no because Title IX doesnt care about those factors.

Also, basing it on ticket sales would not help the athletes. People do not buy tickets to see a certain player at the college level, they buy them because of the laundry.

Duke is selling out every single game it plays with or without Grayson Allen or Zion Williamson.

Hockey and Baseball also operate free farm systems, dont forget the top picks/stars dont play AHL. They go straight to the big club.
I don’t think comparing it to tar heel country is fair / lol I think we can agree it goes into the Ohio state football class when it comes to there fans . But I’d say every jersey and memorabilia that’s sold with that players number or associated name should get a percentage of the profits ( bigger deal in football where I believe it could really bring in dough .hockey the free farm system is jrs/ not the chl ( where the kids pay to play jrs even if just billeting fees
 

BigBadBruins7708

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Dec 11, 2017
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I don’t think comparing it to tar heel country is fair / lol I think we can agree it goes into the Ohio state football class when it comes to there fans . But I’d say every jersey and memorabilia that’s sold with that players number or associated name should get a percentage of the profits ( bigger deal in football where I believe it could really bring in dough .hockey the free farm system is jrs/ not the chl ( where the kids pay to play jrs even if just billeting fees

even outside of Carolina you get it though.

VCU has sold out 117 consecutive basketball home games (dating back to 2011). That streak covers 7 recruiting classes and 4 coaches

I see your point on jerseys, but really college bball and football dont sell alot of jerseys at all. Nowhere near the rates the pro teams do. College merch is big on other things like t-shirts, sweatshirts, banners, decals...because the players are temporary, its the school that never goes
 
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SCBlueLiner

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When you are a fan of a college team you root for the name on the front of the jersey not the name on the back. Classes, players, they come and go, but the school remains. Fierce loyalty to the alma mater, your state school, a school in your region is what drives college sports, not the names on the back of the jerseys. Perfect example of this is FCS football. Look at schools like North Dakota State, huge fan following but they are not playing at the highest level of football, they don't have the top 5 star players in the country, why such a big fan, devoted fan base? School loyalty, that's why.

Speak with a college athletic director, I have. The money doesn't go as far as your think. First you have to feed the beast that is your football and basketball programs, keep up in the arms race, because those are the programs that allow the rest of the athletic department to survive. Next you have to limit the bleeding as much as possible in the non-revenue sports while still providing equitable support and facilities in order to keep in compliance of Title 9 requirements. People think there is all this money to pay these big time college athletes and everybody is just profiting off of them. First, the money isn't there, not like you think it is. The system would collapse if players got paid. Second, the players are receiving total compensation packages that exceed $100,000 per year when you factor in the cost of their scholarships, full cost of attendance, and training support. Student-athletes should be careful in their push to get "paid" because I could argue that all of that should be considered taxable income. Charge them taxes on all they receive and most of them couldn't afford to go to school.
 

SabresSharks

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Oct 2, 2007
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Is it too much to expect the academy to focus on, oh gee, I don't know ... academics?

We're many decades from the days when the term "student athlete" didn't provoke derisive laughter. Surely the big-4 professional sports leagues are capable of recruiting without big-time college sports programs serving as feeder leagues. The European soccer model of youth club teams would serve well here.

College athletics should return to its amateur roots, without athletic scholarships and with academically qualified and capable students participating in club-level sports teams as they please.

None of that will happen, of course, for the simple reason that there are too many pigs' snouts rooting around in the dollar trough, and too many silly alumni inexplicably identifying with "their" batch of athletic mercenaries clad in good ol' Tech State U's colors.
 

Newsworthy

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Jan 28, 2018
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Is it too much to expect the academy to focus on, oh gee, I don't know ... academics?

We're many decades from the days when the term "student athlete" didn't provoke derisive laughter. Surely the big-4 professional sports leagues are capable of recruiting without big-time college sports programs serving as feeder leagues. The European soccer model of youth club teams would serve well here.

College athletics should return to its amateur roots, without athletic scholarships and with academically qualified and capable students participating in club-level sports teams as they please.

None of that will happen, of course, for the simple reason that there are too many pigs' snouts rooting around in the dollar trough, and too many silly alumni inexplicably identifying with "their" batch of athletic mercenaries clad in good ol' Tech State U's colors.
why shouldn't colleges have Sports Scholarships?
They offer scholarships for ac a demics, music and pretty much everything else?
 

Newsworthy

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Jan 28, 2018
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When you are a fan of a college team you root for the name on the front of the jersey not the name on the back. Classes, players, they come and go, but the school remains. Fierce loyalty to the alma mater, your state school, a school in your region is what drives college sports, not the names on the back of the jerseys. Perfect example of this is FCS football. Look at schools like North Dakota State, huge fan following but they are not playing at the highest level of football, they don't have the top 5 star players in the country, why such a big fan, devoted fan base? School loyalty, that's why.

Speak with a college athletic director, I have. The money doesn't go as far as your think. First you have to feed the beast that is your football and basketball programs, keep up in the arms race, because those are the programs that allow the rest of the athletic department to survive. Next you have to limit the bleeding as much as possible in the non-revenue sports while still providing equitable support and facilities in order to keep in compliance of Title 9 requirements. People think there is all this money to pay these big time college athletes and everybody is just profiting off of them. First, the money isn't there, not like you think it is. The system would collapse if players got paid. Second, the players are receiving total compensation packages that exceed $100,000 per year when you factor in the cost of their scholarships, full cost of attendance, and training support. Student-athletes should be careful in their push to get "paid" because I could argue that all of that should be considered taxable income. Charge them taxes on all they receive and most of them couldn't afford to go to school.
It's fine not to agree with paying players although I disagree but I'm seeing a trend here that is bothersome.
Too many posters are siding with the Universities yet these colleges are in bed with the NCAA.
So let's forget about pay and talk about what's truly fair.
If college are allowed to make money off players than the players should be allowed to profit.
Also explain how it's ok to pay college coaches and Athletic Directors millions of dollars.
Not to mention the most important issue that should have been addressed years ago.
Endorsements. Autographs. Memorabilia. Video Games.
Jersey sakes. Commercials etc.
So colleges can profit but a player can't get it doesn't hurt anyone?
So the player is the one who missed out.
They get suspended by the NCAA for getting money to sign their name?
These universities are guilty of much more than that all the while cashing big checks.
Not to mention these kids did nothing wrong.
They have a product to sell that people want to buy and that's themselves.
This is where the NCAA is out of touch and out of line.
 

mouser

Business of Hockey
Jul 13, 2006
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Why not just lift the restriction on a collegiate athlete to monetize their craft from a third party?

Instead of the university (or college) giving the compensation, let the athletes bargain their own compensation from third parties, like EA, or Nike, or whoever, based on their exposure? That lets the universities maintain equitable compensation for all athletes (likely helping to comply with laws like Title IX), while giving those athletes who help earn them the most exposure and revenue, a chance to cash in on that exposure (both during and after their time in college).

Because 90% or more of that money would come from school affiliated boosters, rather then corporate 3rd parties like EA or Nike.
 

Radical Realignment

Registered User
Jun 14, 2015
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27
The Empire State
Boosters are people:

Role of Boosters
Thank you.

First, is there any evidence that "90% or more of that money would come from school affiliated boosters"? Particularly when big corporations like EA and Nike and so on could potentially offer very large sums to the marquee players such boosters are most likely to target?

Secondly, as per your link, these boosters aren't officially associated with "the institution" and are, in fact, third parties acting, on their own, in support of various programs for The Institution. They are funneling money, time, effort into programs they, privately, deem appropriate. Therefore, so long as The Institution is officially providing equitable compensation for all athletic programs, they would comply with laws, such as Title IX (as opposed to the debatable NCAA rules).

Seems to me that the next step is to remove the proviso that "Compensation may not include remuneration for the value that the student-athlete may have for the employer due to the student-athlete’s athletics status," provided that such compensation comes from an independent, private third party (such as corporations, or individuals who would like to attempt to use their money/time/effort to compensate an athlete however they deem their money/time/effort useful - within already existing law).

Or, in other words, simply remove the "amateur" label and requirement from NCAA rules, and allow student-athletes to negotiate compensation for their efforts - so long as that compensation isn't explicitly from The Institution. This would allow student-athletes, with the highest profiles (really, the ones that help generate the most money via tickets sold, TV contracts, merchandise, etc.) to be compensated for the increased value of their work. It could be something as simple as being paid for signing jerseys, to higher end factors such as having representation to be compensated for their likenesses to be used in video games, to national endorsement deals.

I can see complications if alumni and private, non-officially associated citizens wanted to entice athletes to join a university, because the lines there can blur. (For example, think of competing GoFundMe pages to recruit athletes - how could/should they fit into such a framework). But those lines can be specifically addressed. And that, too, could fit into the de-amateurization framework.

Sure, there's still work to be done and debate about it to be had about such a concept. But I firmly believe that removing the inability for a student-athlete to be compensated for their efforts, from independent third parties, based on market-value, would solve far more many issues than it would create.
 

SupremeNachos

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Dec 6, 2011
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Minnesota
I think that some coaches are paid better than coaches in the NFL ( like saban at alabama).

And with all that money, the talent gets bubkis. how that is equitable has never been properly explained to me.
PJ Fleck is getting paid over 3m to be the coach of a bottom tier football team only because it's a big10 school.
 

cowboy82nd

Registered User
Feb 19, 2012
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Newnan, Georgia
People who believe college athletes should not be paid are closed-minded. And that type of people should not be running the NCAA. This is the 21st century. It's very hypocritical for the association to make so much money off of college sports, yet not allow the athletes to see a dime.

CBS and Turner should help the athletes' cause by threatening to walk away from their March Madness TV contract unless people who believe in paying college athletes are hired to run the NCAA. These broadcasters should be uncomfortable with making money off of the NCAA tournament when the players do not.

Then Washington DC's mayor should sign a law prohibiting the NCAA from holding championship events in the city which will only be repealed when the NCAA starts paying college athletes. This would affect next year's D1 men's basketball tournament - the East Regionals are set for Washington, but this law would prevent the city from hosting them, I know one city who would be happy to replace them. Philadelphia, home of the defending champions Villanova.

Dream on. CBS is not going to walk away from that money train and your analogy is off. What your saying is like you not eating in a fancy restaurant until the dishwasher makes more coin. It's not going to happen. College athletes don't get paid, but they get other stuff that regular students don't.
 

Newsworthy

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Dream on. CBS is not going to walk away from that money train and your analogy is off. What your saying is like you not eating in a fancy restaurant until the dishwasher makes more coin. It's not going to happen. College athletes don't get paid, but they get other stuff that regular students don't.

I believe College athletes will be compensated some way.
That to me is the only fair way. Not sure if it's through salary but endorsements and merchandising makes total sense.
I don't believe the current system works.
 

SCBlueLiner

Registered User
Dec 27, 2013
327
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It's fine not to agree with paying players although I disagree but I'm seeing a trend here that is bothersome.
Too many posters are siding with the Universities yet these colleges are in bed with the NCAA.
So let's forget about pay and talk about what's truly fair.
If college are allowed to make money off players than the players should be allowed to profit.
Also explain how it's ok to pay college coaches and Athletic Directors millions of dollars.
Not to mention the most important issue that should have been addressed years ago.
Endorsements. Autographs. Memorabilia. Video Games.
Jersey sakes. Commercials etc.
So colleges can profit but a player can't get it doesn't hurt anyone?
So the player is the one who missed out.
They get suspended by the NCAA for getting money to sign their name?
These universities are guilty of much more than that all the while cashing big checks.
Not to mention these kids did nothing wrong.
They have a product to sell that people want to buy and that's themselves.
This is where the NCAA is out of touch and out of line.

Players making some money off their image and likeness in endorsement deals is different than being paid directly by the university. The schools are tied down with Title 9, if they pay the star point guard they have to pay the backup setter on the women's volleyball team equally, the law says so. It is not economically feasible for athletic departments to do this. Most people don't understand what kind of a black hole non-revenue sports are.

As for players making money off of endorsements, we would be opening a big can of worms that is filled with corruption. I suppose a system could be set up where an athlete would have to disclose all endorsement and revenue sources so they could be subject to public scrutiny, a sort of society policing what goes on. If players do make hundreds of thousands or maybe even a million dollars off of endorsements, should they still be able to receive a full scholarship? On their own they would not be in a position to earn those endorsements, it's their position at a big time school that affords them that opportunity, should the school also share in some of that revenue? There are lots and lots of questions and issues surrounding this issue. It isn't as simple as players making a few dollars for some walking around money.
 

Newsworthy

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Jan 28, 2018
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Players making some money off their image and likeness in endorsement deals is different than being paid directly by the university. The schools are tied down with Title 9, if they pay the star point guard they have to pay the backup setter on the women's volleyball team equally, the law says so. It is not economically feasible for athletic departments to do this. Most people don't understand what kind of a black hole non-revenue sports are.

As for players making money off of endorsements, we would be opening a big can of worms that is filled with corruption. I suppose a system could be set up where an athlete would have to disclose all endorsement and revenue sources so they could be subject to public scrutiny, a sort of society policing what goes on. If players do make hundreds of thousands or maybe even a million dollars off of endorsements, should they still be able to receive a full scholarship? On their own they would not be in a position to earn those endorsements, it's their position at a big time school that affords them that opportunity, should the school also share in some of that revenue? There are lots and lots of questions and issues surrounding this issue. It isn't as simple as players making a few dollars for some walking around money.

I think players should get compensated period. Colleges are already paying these kids off illegaly. Why not allow them to make money legally for a change. The NCAA slaps these schools on the wrist. The money is so crazy that half the time they don't care if they even get sanctioned. These players are used as pawns. These colleges couldn't care less about education. And it's the players who suffer the most when they get caught with hand in cookie jar.

Corruption is already abundant as we speak because of the money these star athletes generate for the University. The biggest culprits are the Athletic Directors and these coaches who get paid millions and millions of dollars.
Why not the NCAA cap the salaries of these coaches as well?
Don't you think this leads to all kinds of corruption? The NCAA turns a blind eye. Not all these players are going to the NBA or the NFL yet the schools are profiting because of them.
Pressure to win by scoring big time talent and these TV contracts are enormous. Maybe the NCAA should force CBS to broadcast games equaly as well or how about no tv period?
Then what? Ban all school endorsements? Make it fully focus on what they try to disguise as education.
Players not being able to earn money on endorsements while Colleges do is ridiculous. You don't think Nike wants to sponsor these kids?
And why are we doing away with scholarships?
Not everyone is Lebron James.
 
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