Nazem Kadri all purpose thread

[Joey Hoser]

Using Bozak's stats without Kessel is worthless. Any time Bozak has played without Kessel was either 4-5 years ago when he was a rookie and Kessel played with Stajan, on the pk or to take defensive zone faceoffs to protect a late lead or something.

Besides that, Bozak clearly isn't a true #1 with Kessel, let alone without, so what's the point of this? Everyone is aware. Leafs don't have a better option right now. Deal with it.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

How did Kessel produce with Bozak in the last third of the season?
BTW while we are at it what was Kessel and JVR's production in the latter part of the season when Bozak was centering them? Good, Average, Sucked?

Bozak finished the year with 9 points in 12 games. Kessel had 6 points in 12 games if you want to compare. More facts.

Again, stop changing the goalposts. You claimed Kessel's production would not suffer without Bozak. Think we can move on because this has been proven unfactual, based on 24 games, almost a 3rd of a season. The difference was substantial.

- Kessel .79 without Bozak projected 65 point year 13-14
- Kessel 1.05 with Bozak projected 85 point year 13-14

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

Let's try this yet again.

"It's probably worth noting how absurdly small the sample size is for Bozak playing on a line without Kessel at even strength."

Also, this chart doesn't show who they were playing with/against, or in which situations they were being used, which would all be very relevant.

Also, they were dramatically more productive as a pair this past season than when separated, which contradicts your entire point.

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Bozak finished the year with 9 points in 12 games. Kessel had 6 points in 12 games if you want to compare.

Again, stop changing the goalposts. You claimed Kessel's production would not suffer without Bozak. Think we can move on because this has been proven unfactual, based on 24 games, almost a 3rd of a season. The difference was substantial.

- Kessel .79 without Bozak projected 65 point year 13-14
- Kessel 1.05 with Bozak projected 85 point year 13-14

So basically With Bozak as his center Kessl produced at 0.5 ppg in the last third?
Kessel produced 80 points in 82 games > 0.5 ppg

In simple terms, Kessel's production is not dependent on Bozak but is independent of Bozak. When Kessel is on a hot streak he scores regardless of who is centering him.

Kessel without Bozak avg 0.98 GF/20 (2010-2011 to present)
Kessel with Bozak avg 0.95 GF/20 (2010-2011 to present)

Bozak without Kessel avg 0.62 GF/20 (2010-2011 to present)


Bottom Line: Kessel produces regardless of who is centering him. Hence, proved!

 

[leafstilldeath*]

"It's probably worth noting how absurdly small the sample size is for Bozak playing on a line without Kessel at even strength."

Also, this chart doesn't show who they were playing with/against, or in which situations they were being used, which would all be very relevant.

Also, they were dramatically more productive as a pair this past season than when separated, which contradicts your entire point.

First, if it is an absurdly small sample size then it is also a small sample size with Kadri centering Kessel (with no secondary scoring options) and;
Grabo centering Kessel. Hence, one cannot claim that Kadri/Grabo didn't have chemistry with Kessel or are not good enough.

Second,
The chart shows the even-strength observations. It is irrelevant of the situation especially when QoT and QoC are taken into consideration.

Bozak's QoT and QoC for his entire career:

Bozak's QoT has always been greater than QoC

QoT QoC

30.6% 28.8% (2nd Year)
31.3% 29.2% (3rd Year)
31% 29.3% (4th year)
33% 30.2% (Last Season)



Bozak's even strength GA:
2nd year: 59
3rd year: 58
4th year: 29 (shortened season)
Last Season: 48 GA in 58 games = Bozak gives up 0.82 goals per game


After every combination and permutation, it is clear as day that Bozak is not good enough for a 1C role.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

So basically With Bozak as his center Kessl produced at 0.5 ppg in the last third?
Kessel produced 80 points in 82 games > 0.5 ppg

In simple terms, Kessel's production is not dependent on Bozak but is independent of Bozak. When Kessel is on a hot streak he scores regardless of who is centering him.

Kessel without Bozak avg 0.98 GF/20 (2010-2011 to present)
Kessel with Bozak avg 0.95 GF/20 (2010-2011 to present)

Bozak without Kessel avg 0.62 GF/20 (2010-2011 to present)


Bottom Line: Kessel produces regardless of who is centering him. Hence, proved!

You are throwing too much mud at the wall in hopes of some of it sticking. I am not interested in getting into all these topics you are introducing in an effort to change the discussion. Going to say this only one more time in this thread. This is the point I want to focus on, the single point I challenged.

You claimed Kessel would produce the same without Bozak. The facts do not back this up. Your assertion has been proven wrong.

- Kessel .79 without Bozak projected 65 point year 13-14
- Kessel 1.05 with Bozak projected 85 point year 13-14

Further Kessel has scored 214 points in 212 games the past 3 seasons with mostly Bozak as his Center and Leafs were the 6th best PP% team out of 30 teams last year. I am not sure what your point is? Kessel is doing fine with Bozak production wise.

 

[RLF]

Link 1:

“Randy and I had a conversation about where all this perception of supposed negative energy between us was coming from,†Kadri said during a sit-down interview late Tuesday afternoon. “We wondered where all this talk is coming from.

“We found it hilarious.â€


Link 2:
“(On Saturday) at the blue line he finds a way to fall down. He’s surprised and we’re surprised that those types of things are happening to him, Our advice to him is to commit to the time off the ice (workouts in the gym), and when you’re on the ice, you work extremely hard and then you do extra … and that’s what he’s doing now.â€

Link 3:

provides no article

Link 4:
dated Oct. 2, 2012

Irrelevant! Also, Eakins made fun of the media saying they took that remark to another level.


bottom line:

You got no proof bud. Its alright to not like a player for whatever reason but do not pass on lies that do not exist.


Hate the game not the player!

What Eakins says is irrelevant but what Kadri says is fact?lol

I don't hate Kadri. I think he is a great talent. I could pick certain quotes that point in my direction if I wanted to, but I wanted people to have the opportunity to read the whole article and makes up their own minds.

I can do what you did.

"This isn’t the first time a team has tried the tough love approach with Kadri. In the OHL Kadri started his career with the Kitchener Rangers. In Kitchener he would openly clash with coach Pete DeBoer in his second season, and despite scoring 65 points in 68 games that year, Kadri was shipped off to division rival London when the season concluded. The young Kadri rebelled against DeBoer’s “tough love†approach."

"How has Kadri responded to the latest criticism? It seems he is defending himself, and not taking responsibility for the issues, saying the following. “It definitely maybe could’ve been a little better, but it’s definitely not bad. I think the way I’m carrying myself out on the ice, I feel stronger, I think my wind is way better than it was last year [and] I think that body fat did drop down from last year too.†It seems Kadri believes he has improved his fitness over previous years, but I think Eakins would beg to differ."

So how have you proven anything?. Where is the proof his attitude is good, but he is misunderstood?

 

[leafstilldeath*]

You are throwing too much mud at the wall in hopes of some of it sticking. I am not interested in getting into all these topics you are introducing in an effort to change the discussion. Going to say this only one more time in this thread. This is the point I want to focus on, the single point I challenged.

You claimed Kessel would produce the same without Bozak. The facts do not back this up. Your assertion has been proven wrong.

- Kessel .79 without Bozak projected 65 point year 13-14
- Kessel 1.05 with Bozak projected 85 point year 13-14

Further Kessel has scored 214 points in 212 games the past 3 seasons with mostly Bozak as his Center and Leafs were the 6th best PP% team out of 30 teams last year. I am not sure what your point is? Kessel is doing fine with Bozak production wise.

Bolded: really? cherry-picked stats are more relevant than observation of career stats? OK then

Kessel's production in the last third of the season with Bozak as his center = 0.5 ppg
Kessel's production in the season as a whole = 0.97 ppg

Kessel without Bozak avg 0.98 GF/20 (2010-2011 to present)
Kessel with Bozak avg 0.95 GF/20 (2010-2011 to present)

Bozak without Kessel avg 0.62 GF/20 (2010-2011 to present)


Bottom Line: Kessel produces regardless of who is centering him. Period!

My argument is simple. Kessel will produce regardless of whether Bozak is centering him or not.

However, taking Bozak's PP stats into consideration, if Kessel is paired with a better playmaker on the PP, Kessel's production and in turn team's success level of PP will increase singificantly going from 6th best PP to "THE BEST" PP in the entire league.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

First, if it is an absurdly small sample size then it is also a small sample size with Kadri centering Kessel

24 games is still a relatively small sample size, but I don't know if Bozak has played 24 games in his entire career without Kessel on his line, nevermind in one season.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

24 games is still a relatively small sample size, but I don't know if Bozak has played 24 games in his entire career without Kessel on his line, nevermind in one season.

This is because every coach we have had, can't find a better one than Bozak. Leafs have tried many, but none are better. The assertion that Connolly, Lombardi, Grabovski or Kadri have been better is a bad opinion.

 

[ULF_55]

Players should improve with more experience.

If we expect it for player A, we should expect it for player B.

Leafs two top centers just finished professional seasons number 4 and 5.

 

[leafstilldeath*]

!

24 games is still a relatively small sample size, but I don't know if Bozak has played 24 games in his entire career without Kessel on his line, nevermind in one season.

That is precisely my point. People use few odd games of Kadri with Kessel and claim all the hoopla but are not willing to accept the same with Bozak? Meanwhile, not even using context that when Kadri centered Kessel the team was pretty down and out with McClement playing 2C, later JVR turning 1C to have more secondary scoring (balanced scoring lines). People have to use context.

And as I have already pointed out with the stats:
GA, PP, QoT, QoC, etc....

given the observation already in place and taking all the combinations and permutations the end result is just as clear as day that Bozak is not fit to be 1C, more so that he should not be on the 1st PP unit.

Even if you disregard the WOWY example the other stats basically point to the same conclusion.

Then the question arises as to why is Bozak married to Kessel? IMO answer is pretty straight forward. "Secondary Scoring"

No coach has yet experimented with Bozak on another line. I think they knnow the limitations of Bozak's game. Bozak is a complementary player but will never be the player that makes his linemates better.

I am only pointing fingers at the incompetency of the Leafs Management and the coaching staff. The time we had to test Bozak's mettle was when Grabo and Kadri both were on the roster. What happened? Welll....Carlyle happened!

Why is it that Bozak is used on the 1st PP unit? Look at the pens they roll two seperate lines with Crosby and Malkin evenstrength but on PP they load up.

Think of PP as two minutes of bonus every game where team can get an advantage by getting a goal. Why not load up our PP? Is the coaching staff that blind?

Also, what is up with the bravado Bozak gets on his defensive play? His QoT has always been higher than QoC, his line should be playing more in the offensive zone BUT we find that line chasing hens in the defensive zone. (Carlyle's system takes primary blame here)

I could just go on and on. My only problem is we should not put a player on a pedestal especially when we already know the weaknesses in the player's game. To hail Bozak as some sort of great player or one of the best players in the league he should be able to play on the other lines (with no Kessel) and elevate the game of his line-mates, or at least he should be consistently be in the top 20 forwards in the league.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Bozak is not paid as a 8.7M cap hit. He is a 4.2 cap hit. To expect him to play as one is not being realistic. He is doing fine for what he is paid. There is no criticism for how he played last year, player has only 292 NHL games into his NHL career and 5 NHL seasons under his belt. Wish more of our players would be so successful progression wise!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Players should improve with more experience.

If we expect it for player A, we should expect it for player B.

Leafs two top centers just finished professional seasons number 4 and 5.

Good point, that's good logic. One can hope some of our players will progress as well as a smart player like Bozak has. Best is yet to follow now that he has figured it out.

 

[Sypher04]

Your whole Kadri arguing with Carlyle on the bench thing is total fud. He talks with them but its never escalated to anything I'd call arguing and we have no idea what is even being said.

Also Kadris body fat being the worst in camp, if it was even true, isnt even necessarily a problem and i dont really blame naz for choosing to comment on it. whos to say worst in camp is even not good? also every player is different, look at kessel. his body fat may well be worst on the leafs... how many people likely care? Kadri arrived ready to play. thats what should be most important. he didnt deserve a call out

 

[JimmyPower]

I don't have a problem with Kadri's talk and his confidence. What I question is the work he puts into it. He's always talked the talk, but for me, he has yet to walk the walk.

Simply put, while he has all the talent to be the things he wants to be i.e. a rock star in the Toronto market, and everything we need him to be as fans of the Toronto Maple Leafs, I still think he lacks the commitment to take his game to the next level and the maturity to be someone that can be counted on to carry this team when needed.

This year, I would love nothing more than to see Kadri explode and validate all the talk and sound bites he's put out (I'd also like to see his Dad put on a Leafs jersey for the first time, after having being invited the last 2 years by MLSE and being the only dad to not wear his son's jersey).

I think this year is going to decide if Kadri is what he thinks he is and what the Leafs NEED him to be, or he is at risk of being a player moved while he still has some value, but a player that Nonis/Shanahan deem has all the tools physically but not mentally to be "one of the best players".

Would love nothing more than to see him put up points like a mad man, support his linemates, and fulfill all of our hopes, and be a leader on this team, and not a self-absorbed, me-first player that he sometimes comes across as, who can disappear for prolongued stretches, and then re-appears and dazzles with the brilliance we know he is capable of.

Interesting times.

BB

His dad did have his sons jersey on lol. He took it off after an intermission, can't remember which one. His dad is fat and jerseys make him sweat. Can u blame him?

 

[leafstilldeath*]

What Eakins says is irrelevant but what Kadri says is fact?lol

I don't hate Kadri. I think he is a great talent. I could pick certain quotes that point in my direction if I wanted to, but I wanted people to have the opportunity to read the whole article and makes up their own minds.

I can do what you did.

"This isn’t the first time a team has tried the tough love approach with Kadri. In the OHL Kadri started his career with the Kitchener Rangers. In Kitchener he would openly clash with coach Pete DeBoer in his second season, and despite scoring 65 points in 68 games that year, Kadri was shipped off to division rival London when the season concluded. The young Kadri rebelled against DeBoer’s “tough love†approach."

"How has Kadri responded to the latest criticism? It seems he is defending himself, and not taking responsibility for the issues, saying the following. “It definitely maybe could’ve been a little better, but it’s definitely not bad. I think the way I’m carrying myself out on the ice, I feel stronger, I think my wind is way better than it was last year [and] I think that body fat did drop down from last year too.†It seems Kadri believes he has improved his fitness over previous years, but I think Eakins would beg to differ."

So how have you proven anything?. Where is the proof his attitude is good, but he is misunderstood?

dude do you understand how quotations work? You quote a direct statement not a third person as you have done.

Second, Eakins himself rubbished what was written about the whole body-fat crap in the media, henceforth, "irrelevant"

As for some guy called Ben Kerr writing about the stories of Kadri Vs DeBeor

here is a direct quote from DeBoer on Kadri:

Not for DeBoer, Kadri’s junior coach during the 2006-07 and 07-08 seasons.

“I’ve seen that goal before,†DeBoer said with a chuckle. “I know he’s capable of that.

“I’m not surprised how Naz is doing right now. He’s a very special talented kid.â€

Link: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/03/02/leafs-kadri-has-the-look-of-a-killer


Try harder dude. Every one of your false claim has been hit out of the park

 

[Purity*]

Would love to see what our first line would look like with a big possession driving center with playmaking abilities. Kessel, as the sniper, does the puck-carrying, playmaking and sniping mostly all on his own (similar to what Patrick Kane does on the Hawks SECOND line). A dominant center with puck skills would do wonders for that line, maybe they could *GASP* no longer be a negative possession line who gets stuck in their zone all the time, aside from Bozak who barely ever has the puck. Seriously just ask the Kings, Hawks, Ducks, Bruins etc.. who their biggest cog for driving and maintaining possession is, it's their #1C they rely on. Even a lower tier of C's like Koivu, Plekanec, Pavelski can handle responsibilities as such and do a respectable job.

And here we are with Bozak who has some of the worst possession numbers in the league and led the Leafs in GA/60. Even watching the guy play is infuriating sometimes, if he has the puck on his stick, all he freaking does is immediately look for the pass to Kessel or dump it in the corner to surrender possession. He is not capable AT ALL of holding onto the puck and watching the play develop.

Know this: Bozak has almost nothing to do with how good offensively that line is, Kessel is the one who drives the offense and Kessel is the one who propelled both JVR and Lupul to career years. He's the world-class offensive talent on the line, and Bozak is the one with the questionable skillset.

I have no problem with Bozak as a player, he has his limitations obviously. But using him as a #1 center is completely asinine, there's no way a team accomplishes ANYTHING with Bozak as a #1C, and here we are going into our 5th year with him as #1C yet again I've always maintained the notion that after the first pairing on defense, our #1C is EASILY our most upgradeable position.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

I was going to say that denouncing Bozak as not being a great hockey player is kind of like ranting about what a bad man Hitler was, but then I remembered that there are still in fact people who support Hitler.

 

[diceman934]

Players should improve with more experience.

If we expect it for player A, we should expect it for player B.

Leafs two top centers just finished professional seasons number 4 and 5.

Really what a comparison....one who played JR hockey as an over aged and two years of College and the other played Jr hockey and right into pro hockey. To compare the two based on "Pro" hockey as a criteria is vastly unfair. Age difference of 4 years 7 months difference as well.

Ok for your comparison Bozak produced at a 60 Pt pace in his first season where was his growth in years 2, 3, 4 ? He never came close to that first years pace until this past season.

After all If we expect it for player A, we should expect it for player B.


As well if you are going to count the AHL as Pro hockey and use that as the only criteria to look at both career then lets do so:

Bozak in the AHL produced at 51 points per season
Kadri in the AHL produced at 73 points per season rate over his AHL career.

 

[Suntouchable13]

ROFL at thinking that Bozak makes Kessel. It's the other way around. Without Kessel, Bozak is not even in the league.

 

[RLF]

dude do you understand how quotations work? You quote a direct statement not a third person as you have done.

Second, Eakins himself rubbished what was written about the whole body-fat crap in the media, henceforth, "irrelevant"

As for some guy called Ben Kerr writing about the stories of Kadri Vs DeBeor

here is a direct quote from DeBoer on Kadri:

Not for DeBoer, Kadri’s junior coach during the 2006-07 and 07-08 seasons.

“I’ve seen that goal before,†DeBoer said with a chuckle. “I know he’s capable of that.

“I’m not surprised how Naz is doing right now. He’s a very special talented kid.â€

Link: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/03/02/leafs-kadri-has-the-look-of-a-killer


Try harder dude. Every one of your false claim has been hit out of the park

Since I was at a game and witnessed it myself with three others, (which you ignore), I find it interesting you call it a false claim, since you have no proof to the opposite. I don't need to try harder, you can perceive it whichever way you want. That's your right. I put a whole paragraph in quotes to show context of the statements, instead of picking and choosing. I could pick quotes from Nonis, Caryle etc, but you would still say the same thing, so why bother.

You have no proof of...he has a good attitude, but misunderstood and mishandled by coaches (all but 1 coach of course because he produced with John Tavares on his wing). Yet, you call out someone with first hand knowledge of a situation they saw with their own eyes. You have yet to provide any proof against what I feel, and I don't suspect that will change, but somehow you are right and I have no basis for what I think is happening.

There is no issues with Nazem? Ok. So why was he traded from Kitchener for picks and why wouldn't Nonis give him the long term deal he wanted, like they did with Gardiner coming off his ELC.(Yes, I know the cap situation, but they would make it work if they felt Kadri was a future core guy). All Kadri did was put up almost ppg in his contract year. Isn't that the kind of player you would want to lock up long term at decent money like they did Gardiner, especially if he has a great attitude?

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Really what a comparison....one who played JR hockey as an over aged and two years of College and the other played Jr hockey and right into pro hockey. To compare the two based on "Pro" hockey as a criteria is vastly unfair. Age difference of 4 years 7 months difference as well.

Ok for your comparison Bozak produced at a 60 Pt pace in his first season where was his growth in years 2, 3, 4 ? He never came close to that first years pace until this past season.

After all If we expect it for player A, we should expect it for player B.


As well if you are going to count the AHL as Pro hockey and use that as the only criteria to look at both career then lets do so:

Bozak in the AHL produced at 51 points per season
Kadri in the AHL produced at 73 points per season rate over his AHL career.

The only thing that is made clear by the "# of pro seasons" argument is that Kadri is a much more accomplished player at a younger age. I have no idea how it draws a parallel between the two. If anything, it paints Bozak as a tremendous disappointment up to this point.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

This is the year that Bozak will establish himself as a top 5 center in the NHL

 

[Beleafer4]

This is the year that Bozak will establish himself as a top 5 center in the NHL

Crosby
Stamkos
Malkin
Toews
Bozak