Nazem Kadri all purpose thread

[Gary Nylund]

Seriously. Nobody is 'satisfied' with Bozak as our #1 center. Nobody thinks we stack up well against the LA Kings or St. Louis Blues. But what exactly is the alternative at this point? We've been in on just about every top six center to hit free agency over the past few years, and most of them have been over-paid, or didn't want to come here, etc.

Beyond that, what are we supposed to do? We either continue building from within and hope we can pick up a good center through the draft, or we give up some very significant assets to acquire the type of lower-to-mid-tier #1 center that teams are occasionally willing to part with, and who still won't stack up that well against the Toews and Kopitars of the league.

Yep. It's like the geniuses who say stuff like Phaneuf has to go because "we'll never win with him as our #1 d-man". Same thing with Bozak as our #1. Get rid of Bozak, get rid of Phaneuf and we'll somehow, magically be a better team according to these geniuses.

 

[ULF_55]

Seriously. Nobody is 'satisfied' with Bozak as our #1 center. Nobody thinks we stack up well against the LA Kings or St. Louis Blues. But what exactly is the alternative at this point? We've been in on just about every top six center to hit free agency over the past few years, and most of them have been over-paid, or didn't want to come here, etc.

Beyond that, what are we supposed to do? We either continue building from within and hope we can pick up a good center through the draft, or we give up some very significant assets to acquire the type of lower-to-mid-tier #1 center that teams are occasionally willing to part with, and who still won't stack up that well against the Toews and Kopitars of the league.

You can only use the assets you have.

Patrice Bergeron was a 2nd. round pick IIRC (checked 45th.), and he's turned into a pretty good top 6 center.

But here's the thing, he showed right away he had that ability, making the NHL in his draft year. His talent was obvious, and if it wasn't for his major concussion who knows if he wouldn't have been better.

Bergeron, 62 points in 80 games this year. He was 3rd. on his team in ice time for forwards. Krejci had the most ice time and scored 69 points. As a 22 year old Krejci scored 73 points, again proving quickly his talent and abilities.

Bozak was on a 69 point pace in his 5th. pro season.

Bruins centers were doing great in their 3rd. pro seasons.

Leafs centers just don't have that talent level and appear to be a step below.

Seeing both Bruins centers were drafted in the 2nd. round show that it isn't where you are picked that matters, a top 10 pick might not be as good as the guy you can get in the 2nd. round.

Let's hope the Leafs luck out somewhere down the line.

 

[New Liskeard]

deja vu ......seems like we have heard this before.

Bozak had a good season last year. Calling him a good PK player is wrong even his coach did not agree. His Line mate played more on the PK then Bozak as did others. He played less time on the PK then many players on the team. Not to mention the rest of the League...

Good at face offs well not according to his most recent year.....he was at best average. Our best faceoff man was unfortunately not a great player Jerred Smithson.

Defensive stats clearly show he was not very good. Then on the PP he was horrible when you consider the amount of time he was on the PP. He was tied with former Leaf Grabo in PP points in the same amount of games, however Grabo played 74 minutes less on the PP.

I take it the fact he didn't play a full NHL season had nothing to do with that?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Posted facts about Tyler Bozak that are often ignored.

- Only the 6th highest paid player on team at 4.2 last year.
- QOC: Bozak 1.38 highest fwd on team
- +2 highest plus fwd on team
- Goals on Per 60 at 3.70 highest on team
- Offensive zone starts, Bozak only 38.4%
- 49 points in only 58 games, 69 point pace.
- Bozak giveaways last year 24, a team low 7th amongst Leafs fwds, this is a good thing.
- JVR .60 without Bozak projected 49 point year 13-14
- JVR .82 with Bozak projected 68 point year 13-14
- Kessel .79 without Bozak projected 65 point year 13-14
- Kessel 1.05 with Bozak projected 85 point year 13-14

Tyler Bozak Career Faceoff stats:

Rookie Year 55.2%
Sophomore year 54.6%
3rd Year 52.7%
4th Year 52.6%
5th year 48.7%

What are people critiquing?

 

[diceman934]

I take it the fact he didn't play a full NHL season had nothing to do with that?

Average minutes per game on PK 1:11 for Bozak behind McCements, Kulimen, JVR, Raymond, Smithson and tied with Bolland.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....t=avgShortHandedTOIPerGame&viewName=timeOnIce

 

[ULF_55]

Average minutes per game on PK 1:11 for Bozak behind McCements, Kulimen, JVR, Raymond, Smithson and tied with Bolland.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....t=avgShortHandedTOIPerGame&viewName=timeOnIce

Smithson and Bolland were part time players though.

Centers on the PK: McClement and Bozak with the most ice time over the season.

Too bad about Bolland's injury, and Smithson's lack of NHL game.

It would have been nice to have another center for Carlyle to put out at center shorthanded and in the D-zone.

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Posted facts about Tyler Bozak that are often ignored.

- 4.2M/yr for a 3C.
- Have had higher QoT than QoC in his entire career yet couldn't manage to break the 50 point barrier yet, especially while playing with Kessel and 1st PP unit
- a career minus player
- Goals against per 60 has been abysmal with no improvement
- Defensive zone starts have been misrepresented due to FO taken by Bozak leading to smaller and very misleading offensive zone starts
- a career 0.6 ppg player with an anomaly season last year
- an offensive blackhole on PP with the worst numbers compared to other 1st PP centers int he league heck even worse compared to 2C Kadri on the leafs that plays 2nd PP unit with lesser players i.e. No Kessel, No JVR,
- Bozak giveaways last year 24, corresponding well with his Corsi score that shows that he has lower giveaways because he is not a good possession player i.e. doesn't have the puck often to give it away
- WOWY analysis provides concluding evidence that Kessel's production does not change while playing away from Bozak, however, Bozak's production takes a serious plunge when not playing with Kessel. In simple terms, Kessel carries Bozak, Kessel's production will not change doesn't matter who is centering him, while Bozak is nothing without Kessel.

Tyler Bozak Career Faceoff stats: (a declining trend)

Rookie Year 55.2%
Sophomore year 54.6%
3rd Year 52.7%
4th Year 52.6%
5th year 48.7%

Folks are correct in critiquing the position Bozak plays on the team

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Yeah, it's a uniquely Leafs fan phenomenon to think that some sports players are better than others. Wait, what?

Actually it's funny you mention it because nobody questions Bozak's desire to win, motivation, commitment etc., only Kadri.

This is precisely what grinds my gears. Way too much whining for a 23 year old center that is still learning the ropes, people expecting him to put up 60+ points without 1st PP time, without playing with elite wingers


#Memo: Hockey is a team game not individual game

 

[RLF]

Stop making **** up. We all watch the games too.

Funny how fans can speculate that Kadri has a good attitude that is misunderstood while using internet psychology. Where is the proof? Are one of you guys on here his therapist, personal friend? How do you know this is the case? Sources please.

My comments are based on fact about arguing on the bench, not speculation. I have witnessed first hand, at a game, Kadri arguing with Carlyle on the bench when Carlyle wasn't happy with a play on the ice. I have seen the same situation at least half a dozen times while watching games on TV.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/12/3...again-after-comments-from-coach-randy-Carlyle

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs...he_biggest_challenge_of_young_nhl_career.html

http://torontostar.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

http://lastwordonsports.com/2012/10/02/the-nazem-kadri-dilemna/

Examples wanted. I have no problems showing where my opinion comes from. All those articles, with quotes included, are coaches saying they want more, and Kadri has to start showing he is dedicated to all aspects of the game (on and off ice). The articles are not ripping him, but there is issues there and Nazem usually says the right things to the media. Do people really think if the conversations were heated behind closed doors, the player will come out and say the coach just ripped me a new one?

Kadri's fans expect coaches to give him a soft love over the tough love approach because it works for Kadri, (apparently). There is 23 guys on a roster, a coach can't be tough with 22 and coddle 1. The other players will resent the special treatment.

We all want Nazem to succeed, but he has to actually take responsibility and make the changes imo...not just say the right things to the media most of the time. If the coach calls you out, go out the next game and prove you can do it...work harder and prove yourself, then the media will leave you alone on the issues previously mentioned. He has had issues with his Junior coach in Kitchener, issues with Wilson, issues with Carlyle, issues with Eakins, even Nonis has called him out for lack of intensity. There is too much smoke here for there to be no fire. My opinion comes from things I have personally seen and read...I have not seen any proof that Kadri has a great attitude but is misunderstood and it's coaches and fans fault for not realizing it.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I doubt there are any 49 point #3 Centers in the NHL that have 49 points in 82 games, never mind 58 games, if so Leafs have the best #3C in the NHL for only 4.2 , to play him in such difficult assignments.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Posted facts about Tyler Bozak that are often ignored.

- 4.2M/yr for a 3C.
- Have had higher QoT than QoC in his entire career yet couldn't manage to break the 50 point barrier yet, especially while playing with Kessel and 1st PP unit
- a career minus player
- Goals against per 60 has been abysmal with no improvement
- Defensive zone starts have been misrepresented due to FO taken by Bozak leading to smaller and very misleading offensive zone starts
- a career 0.6 ppg player with an anomaly season last year
- an offensive blackhole on PP with the worst numbers compared to other 1st PP centers int he league heck even worse compared to 2C Kadri on the leafs that plays 2nd PP unit with lesser players i.e. No Kessel, No JVR,
- Bozak giveaways last year 24, corresponding well with his Corsi score that shows that he has lower giveaways because he is not a good possession player i.e. doesn't have the puck often to give it away
- WOWY analysis provides concluding evidence that Kessel's production does not change while playing away from Bozak, however, Bozak's production takes a serious plunge when not playing with Kessel. In simple terms, Kessel carries Bozak, Kessel's production will not change doesn't matter who is centering him, while Bozak is nothing without Kessel.

Tyler Bozak Career Faceoff stats: (a declining trend)

Rookie Year 55.2%
Sophomore year 54.6%
3rd Year 52.7%
4th Year 52.6%
5th year 48.7%

Folks are correct in critiquing the position Bozak plays on the team

The bolded in your post is factually wrong. Here is the production of Kessel and JVR with and without Bozak last year.

- JVR .60 without Bozak projected 49 point year 13-14
- JVR .82 with Bozak projected 68 point year 13-14
- Kessel .79 without Bozak projected 65 point year 13-14
- Kessel 1.05 with Bozak projected 85 point year 13-14

 

[diceman934]

Smithson and Bolland were part time players though.

Centers on the PK: McClement and Bozak with the most ice time over the season.

Too bad about Bolland's injury, and Smithson's lack of NHL game.

It would have been nice to have another center for Carlyle to put out at center shorthanded and in the D-zone.

Yes, it would have been nice, but that does not Make Bozak a good PK player as that simply is not true, he was not used as such. I see Bozak ice time on the PK being very limited this year and rightfully so.

 

[leafstilldeath*]

I doubt there are 3C playing 1st line duties including 1st PP unit because the management and coaching staff was incompetent and had no vision

Oh wait a minute: Hello Toronto Maple Leafs

 

[Dreakmur]

This is precisely what grinds my gears. Way too much whining for a 23 year old center that is still learning the ropes, people expecting him to put up 60+ points without 1st PP time, without playing with elite wingers


#Memo: Hockey is a team game not individual game

You sending that memo to Kadri?

 

[leafstilldeath*]

The bolded in your post is factually wrong. Here is the production of Kessel and JVR with and without Bozak last year.

- JVR .60 without Bozak projected 49 point year 13-14
- JVR .82 with Bozak projected 68 point year 13-14
- Kessel .79 without Bozak projected 65 point year 13-14
- Kessel 1.05 with Bozak projected 85 point year 13-14

thanks again for your "one cherry picked" season arguments. I see that and raise you with a time series analytical piece that looks at all the years not just one cherry picked season:

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/08/11/wowy-analysis-of-phil-kessel-and-tyler-bozak/

Conclusion of the article:
In the example of Kessel and Bozak, there is little or no evidence that Bozak is integral to Kessel’s production where as there is a lot of evidence that Kessel is integral to Bozak’s production.


BTW while we are at it what was Kessel and JVR's production in the latter part of the season when Bozak was centering them? Good, Average, Sucked?

Logical explanation: If Kessel goes cold that 1st line goes cold. Kessel gets hot, Bozak and JVR benefit.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

thanks again for your "one cherry picked" season arguments. I see that and raise you with a time series analytical piece that looks at all the years not just one cherry picked season:

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/08/11/wowy-analysis-of-phil-kessel-and-tyler-bozak/

Conclusion of the article:
In the example of Kessel and Bozak, there is little or no evidence that Bozak is integral to Kessel’s production where as there is a lot of evidence that Kessel is integral to Bozak’s production.


BTW while we are at it what was Kessel and JVR's production in the latter part of the season when Bozak was centering them? Good, Average, Sucked?

Logical explanation: If Kessel goes cold that 1st line goes cold. Kessel gets hot, Bozak and JVR benefit.

Cold hard facts, you were challenged on this quote below and it was proven statistically incorrect, you cannot alter facts :

Kessel's production will not change doesn't matter who is centering him, while Bozak is nothing without Kessel.

Further Leafs were the 6th best PP team in the NHL last year, 6 out of 30 teams, is this bad? Not sure where you are going with this argument?

 

[AD1066]

The bolded in your post is factually wrong. Here is the production of Kessel and JVR with and without Bozak last year.

- JVR .60 without Bozak projected 49 point year 13-14
- JVR .82 with Bozak projected 68 point year 13-14
- Kessel .79 without Bozak projected 65 point year 13-14
- Kessel 1.05 with Bozak projected 85 point year 13-14

Bozak when playing with Kessel had a 46.8 CF% and 51.9 GF%.
Bozak when not playing with Kessel had a 32.9 CF% and 38.2 GF%
Kessel when not playing with Bozak had a 46.1 CF% and 50.0 GF%

In short, Bozak was terrible when not playing with Kessel while Kessel performed about the same when not playing with Bozak. This is clear evidence that Bozak was dependent on Kessel (along with Lupul and/or van Riemsdyk) and not the other way around.

http://theleafsnation.com/2014/8/20/bye-bozak

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Funny how fans can speculate that Kadri has a good attitude that is misunderstood while using internet psychology. Where is the proof? Are one of you guys on here his therapist, personal friend? How do you know this is the case? Sources please.

My comments are based on fact about arguing on the bench, not speculation. I have witnessed first hand, at a game, Kadri arguing with Carlyle on the bench when Carlyle wasn't happy with a play on the ice. I have seen the same situation at least half a dozen times while watching games on TV.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/12/3...again-after-comments-from-coach-randy-Carlyle

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs...he_biggest_challenge_of_young_nhl_career.html

http://torontostar.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

http://lastwordonsports.com/2012/10/02/the-nazem-kadri-dilemna/

Examples wanted. I have no problems showing where my opinion comes from. All those articles, with quotes included, are coaches saying they want more, and Kadri has to start showing he is dedicated to all aspects of the game (on and off ice). The articles are not ripping him, but there is issues there and Nazem usually says the right things to the media. Do people really think if the conversations were heated behind closed doors, the player will come out and say the coach just ripped me a new one?

Kadri's fans expect coaches to give him a soft love over the tough love approach because it works for Kadri, (apparently). There is 23 guys on a roster, a coach can't be tough with 22 and coddle 1. The other players will resent the special treatment.

We all want Nazem to succeed, but he has to actually take responsibility and make the changes imo...not just say the right things to the media most of the time. If the coach calls you out, go out the next game and prove you can do it...work harder and prove yourself, then the media will leave you alone on the issues previously mentioned. He has had issues with his Junior coach in Kitchener, issues with Wilson, issues with Carlyle, issues with Eakins, even Nonis has called him out for lack of intensity. There is too much smoke here for there to be no fire. My opinion comes from things I have personally seen and read...I have not seen any proof that Kadri has a great attitude but is misunderstood and it's coaches and fans fault for not realizing it.

Link 1:

“Randy and I had a conversation about where all this perception of supposed negative energy between us was coming from,†Kadri said during a sit-down interview late Tuesday afternoon. “We wondered where all this talk is coming from.

“We found it hilarious.â€


Link 2:
“(On Saturday) at the blue line he finds a way to fall down. He’s surprised and we’re surprised that those types of things are happening to him, Our advice to him is to commit to the time off the ice (workouts in the gym), and when you’re on the ice, you work extremely hard and then you do extra … and that’s what he’s doing now.â€

Link 3:

provides no article

Link 4:
dated Oct. 2, 2012

Irrelevant! Also, Eakins made fun of the media saying they took that remark to another level.


bottom line:

You got no proof bud. Its alright to not like a player for whatever reason but do not pass on lies that do not exist.


Hate the game not the player!

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

It's probably worth noting how absurdly small the sample size is for Bozak playing on a line without Kessel at even strength.

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Cold hard facts, you were challenged on this quote below and it was proven statistically incorrect, you cannot alter facts :



Further Leafs were the 6th best PP team in the NHL last year, 6 out of 30 teams, is this bad? Not sure where you are going with this argument?

you are right you cannot alter the facts.

Here read again:
http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/08/11/wowy-analysis-of-phil-kessel-and-tyler-bozak/

Once again cherry picking? Using a small sample size? Do you also want me to produce the stats that Kessel scored at a higher rate with Kadri than Bozak?

Do you want me to produce that Kessel potted 30 goals with Stajan as his center?

6th best PP team? I am not content with that I want Leafs to be THE BEST team. Bozak's PP stats are abysmal, he should never ever be on the ice on PP never!

And once again you ignnore the rest of my post. Unless and until you respond to them I am not having a debate/discussion with ya.

 

[leafstilldeath*]

It's probably worth noting how absurdly small the sample size is for Bozak playing on a line without Kessel at even strength.

One can only quantify what one can observe. I can use a similar approach and say that Kadri in his second year has cracked the 50 points barrier without Kessel on his wing for substantial period of time or 1st PP unit while Bozak is yet to crack the 50 points barrier while exclusively playing with Kessel and getting 1st PP duties from beginning of his career till now.

Just FYI I am not dissing Bozak, I am basically pointing the finger at the incompetency of the Leafs management and the coaching staff that has no vision

 

[The Winter Soldier]

you are right you cannot alter the facts.

Here read again:
http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/08/11/wowy-analysis-of-phil-kessel-and-tyler-bozak/

Once again cherry picking? Using a small sample size? Do you also want me to produce the stats that Kessel scored at a higher rate with Kadri than Bozak?

Do you want me to produce that Kessel potted 30 goals with Stajan as his center?

6th best PP team? I am not content with that I want Leafs to be THE BEST team. Bozak's PP stats are abysmal, he should never ever be on the ice on PP never!

And once again you ignnore the rest of my post. Unless and until you respond to them I am not having a debate/discussion with ya.

This has nothing to do with your post Kessel would produce the same without Bozak, I posted factual stats this wasn't the case based on the most recent evidence. 24 games when Bozak was out. This is almost a 3rd of the season. A good sample. Changing the goalposts does not change this fact. Will you address your comment or not, or just admit you were wrong.

There is a reason why both JVR and Kessel produced less without Bozak, Bozak was the best GF per 60 player on the team last season. Stats back up stats.

And Again, Leafs were the 6th best PP team in the NHL last year. It worked fine, usually when things do not work people have a legitimate criticism. Leafs were 6 out 30 teams in PP%, so again what is your point?

 

[AD1066]

This has nothing to do with your post Kessel would produce the same without Bozak, I posted factual stats this wasn't the case based on the most recent evidence. 24 games when Bozak was out. This is almost a 3rd of the season. A good sample. Changing the goalposts does not change this fact. Will you address your comment or not, or just admit you were wrong.

Let's try this yet again.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Let's try this yet again.

Who was talking about this? Let's try this again.

The poster claimed Kessel's production would be the same without Bozak. I challenged this assertion and backed it up with statistical proof it was not the case through 24 games when Bozak was out.

The facts are both JVR and Kessel's production declined without our best GF per 60 player. Stats back up stats.

Posting this chart has nothing to do with the discussion. CF% stats act, what happened 3 or 4 years ago, ect…

Here are the stats from last year, address this point and solely this point and tell me Kessel produced the same without Bozak.

- JVR .60 without Bozak projected 49 point year 13-14
- JVR .82 with Bozak projected 68 point year 13-14
- Kessel .79 without Bozak projected 65 point year 13-14
- Kessel 1.05 with Bozak projected 85 point year 13-14

 

[leafstilldeath*]

This has nothing to do with your post Kessel would produce the same without Bozak, I posted factual stats this wasn't the case based on the most recent evidence. 24 games when Bozak was out. This is almost a 3rd of the season. A good sample. Changing the goalposts does not change this fact. Will you address your comment or not, or just admit you were wrong.

There is a reason why both JVR and Kessel produced less without Bozak, Bozak was the best GF per 60 player on the team last season. Stats back up stats.

And Again, Leafs were the 6th best PP team in the NHL last year. It worked fine, usually when things do not work people have a legitimate criticism. Leafs were 6 out 30 teams in PP%, so again what is your point?

How did Kessel produce with Bozak in the last third of the season?

BTW while we are at it what was Kessel and JVR's production in the latter part of the season when Bozak was centering them? Good, Average, Sucked?

quoting the post you very conveniently ignored