Proposal: MTL & NJ

[Junohockeyfan]

My take that I'd like my "top 6 center" to score at a higher rate 5v5 than Ryan Reaves?

yes, In your fantasy world Reaves > Dach! That’s all we needed to see. lol

Admit it - you didn’t watch Dach play at C in the back half of the season… all Habs fans think you are full of it.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

No matter what your numbers says they’re wrong and it’s unfortunate that Dach doesn’t get to prove you wrong until next season but it is what it is. Again, your take on Dach isn’t going to end well. I’ll leave it to that for now as it is pointless to debate until ~ mid season next year

I don’t think he has watched Dach play. He thinks he is a winger. He also thinks Slaf is a penalty machine that can’t be fixed because his stats told him so! lol

Meanwhile, Holtz would apparently be a top lime forward on the Habs….

I question if he knows what icing is…

 

[dgibb10]

And point production is meaningless to NJ fans. Only EV points matter, unless its a NJ player who captures PP points.

Again, I value players being effective at whatever they do. But if you want to go get all excited about the members of a power play that has finished 27th and 29th in the league in the last 2 years, go ahead.

If I'd expect a mediocre player to put up x points given y minutes on a power play, and a certain player puts up less than x points, then I will not give them meaningful credit.

I do the same for 5v5 as well tbh. For example Knies has very good 5v5 production, but I'm not moved by it because frankly playing on a line with Nylander and Matthews, it is a total I could/would expect any player to get (such as what Jarnkrok did).

Based on what I've seen from the players on the habs PP and the impact of swapping players in, I don't think any of the guys besides Suzuki and Caufield are adding much, if any value. Dach is probably the best

But frankly, based on what I've seen, you sub Palat or Mercer or Nemec into those power plays and they don't miss a beat, and might even get better. So I don't give a meaningful credit to some guys just because their competition is Josh anderson while other guys competition is Jesper Bratt.

I will give MASSIVE credit to the truly elite on the power play.

It's the same with the PK. I don't give credit for existing. I give credit for providing value.

Same with even strength.

 

[dgibb10]

I don’t think he has watched Dach play. He thinks he is a winger. He also thinks Slaf is a penalty machine that can’t be fixed because his stats told him so! lol

Meanwhile, Holtz would apparently be a top lime forward on the Habs….

I question if he knows what icing is…

Nowhere did I say Slaf's penalty issues couldn't be fixed.

Juraj Slafkovsky objectively has a penalty problem right now. Over the last 2 years he OBJECTIVELY has one of the worst penalty differentials of any forward in the league.

Kirby Dach played more than 50% of his minutes last year with Nick Suzuki. Are you going to pretend that Dach was the center of that line? Shockingly, it's also where most of Dach's success came from.

yes, In your fantasy world Reaves > Dach! That’s all we needed to see. lol

Admit it - you didn’t watch Dach play at C in the back half of the season… all Habs fans think you are full of it.

The sad truth

Keep strawmanning tho

 

[dgibb10]

This year, Casey have 45pts in 40 games and Hutson have 49pts in 38 games just to get this straight. And it's funny to see Monahan in your ev stats because we where told that he was only a pp specialist who could not score at 5v5 when the habs wanted to trade him. I guess I was right, ev stats are related to how good your team is.

Monahan was elite for quite a while during his time in Calgary. Then he started to slow down and play worse. Things change over the course of 8 years.

"Monahan was a great even strength scorer in 2015 relative to other teenagers so clearly he is also a great even strength scorer 8 years later"

I’m a Habs fan myself. Here’s some bold statement from my 44 games I watched live this year (counting 2 pre-season and one in Florida):

- Lafreniere is grossly underrated and was most of the time the best player on the ice for his team
- Ziba is washed up and has slowed down considerably. He’s on the decline and it will show on the scoresheet sooner than later
- k’Andre Miller had a pretty bad year compared to last year
- Jack Hughes was never the same after his first injury
- Mercer had a pretty bad year and it was clear he lacked confidence with the puck. He rushed plays way more than last year
- Forsling was by far the best D for Floride
- Ovy is completely washed up. Lazy on the ice, super slow and gave the puck way more often than he used too.
- Chyrchurn was Ottawa most consistent D. Sanderson isn’t has good (yet) as people make it to be.
- Brock Nelson is probably the most underrated C in the east
- Tage most likely played a good chunk of the year with a shoulder injury or something like that
- Pesce is already washed up
- Trading for Drysdale will age well for Philly


Nice! Who’s winning?

-Disagree with the Chychrun take, although I am very high on sanderson.
-I'm really low on Drysdale. I've been very disappointed with his play for years. All the tools but has been unable to put it together into even an average level of play.
-I think Laffy is underrated, but I'd hold my horses on saying he's the best player on the ice when panarin is out there.

Otherwise agree with most of it.

 

[HabsAddict]

Just for the record...Dach DOMINATED like he was Mario Lemeaux the two first games before he was injured. I haven't seen anything like that for a long time.

He literally did anything he wanted on the ice.

Can't wait to see him play next season.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Nowhere did I say Slaf's penalty issues couldn't be fixed.

Juraj Slafkovsky objectively has a penalty problem right now. Over the last 2 years he OBJECTIVELY has one of the worst penalty differentials of any forward in the league.

Kirby Dach played more than 50% of his minutes last year with Nick Suzuki. Are you going to pretend that Dach was the center of that line? Shockingly, it's also where most of Dach's success came from.

View attachment 854259


The sad truthView attachment 854261
Keep strawmanning tho

Nope, Dach was a play driver innthe final 20+ games and was effective. Was a beast in the preseason. Your stats don’t show this. But its fact.

Watch the games then comment. Everyone disagrees with you. Take a hint.

Put Mercer on the Habs and he produces far less EV points on the NJ. Its obvious why. The guy was terrible this year. He would have worse linemates on the Habs because he would not get a sniff of EV time with Suzuki due to Slaf emergence.

Similarly, Holtz would suck on any team. Why? Because he’s a bust.

Nemec was a reach at 2 because NJ drafted for need over BPA. if they drafted BPA, Cooley would have been the pick.

 

[Xirik]

Monahan was elite for quite a while during his time in Calgary. Then he started to slow down and play worse. Things change over the course of 8 years.

"Monahan was a great even strength scorer in 2015 relative to other teenagers so clearly he is also a great even strength scorer 8 years later"


-Disagree with the Chychrun take, although I am very high on sanderson.
-I'm really low on Drysdale. I've been very disappointed with his play for years. All the tools but has been unable to put it together into even an average level of play.
-I think Laffy is underrated, but I'd hold my horses on saying he's the best player on the ice when panarin is out there.

Otherwise agree with most of it.

just stop engaging with Juno, He just makes false statements to bait people to reply to him and continue upping his post counter.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Prod

Just for the record...Dach DOMINATED like he was Mario Lemeaux the two first games before he was injured. I haven't seen anything like that for a long time.

He literally did anything he wanted on the ice.

Can't wait to see him play next season.

wouldn’t waste time with fools whoo have not watched Dach play. Stat watchers bend the truth by cherry picking stats to feed a false narrative. Its petty and serves to rile or troll a fan base. When everyone disagrees with the person in question, that is telling…

Reeves > Dach!

Nod and smile!

 

[ottawa]

From Montreal in terms of pieces that would actually fit into helping NJDs roster makeup:

Guhle: 2LD with marino, would offer our 2024 1st+sweeteners
Montembault: 1G. Would offer our 2025 1st
Newhook: 3C/3LW: would offer our 2025 1st+winnipeg 2nd
Evans: 4C: Would offer 2024 3rd
Dvorak (50%): 4C: would offer 2024 3rd
Josh Anderson (50%): Miles wood replacement: would offer winnipeg 2nd

Literally every habs fan does Monty for a 1st lol...no takebacks

 

[bud12]

Monahan was elite for quite a while during his time in Calgary. Then he started to slow down and play worse. Things change over the course of 8 years.

"Monahan was a great even strength scorer in 2015 relative to other teenagers so clearly he is also a great even strength scorer 8 years later"


-Disagree with the Chychrun take, although I am very high on sanderson.
-I'm really low on Drysdale. I've been very disappointed with his play for years. All the tools but has been unable to put it together into even an average level of play.
-I think Laffy is underrated, but I'd hold my horses on saying he's the best player on the ice when panarin is out there.

Otherwise agree with most of it.

Watch is ev production in Winnipeg compare to Mtl. 19pts at even strength in 33 games with the jets and 19pts in 49games with Mtl. Ev prod is direcly releated to the team you play for and I don't know how someone can disagree with that

 

[TBF1972]

This is why no one can take you seriously. Admit it - Newhook blew Mercer out the water this year.

Can you admit that? Say it with me... It will make you feel better!

Put Mercer on the Habs and he produces far less. He's on a team that struggles to score and would be on the 2nd line without a legit 2C (as Dach was injured). Mercer would produce less. Holtz would produce nada.

This is what was remarkable about Newhook's season. He drove a line and produced at a 2nd line production rate playing with scrubs.

why do you talk in absolutes when you bring up hypothetical scenarios.

somehow matheson recorded career bests in both seasons in montreal where producing points is nearly impossible (by your own definition). this season he doubled his career best pre montreal. did he sudden develop his game at age 30?

 

[bud12]

why do you talk in absolutes when you bring up hypothetical scenarios.

somehow matheson recorded career bests in both seasons in montreal where producing points is nearly impossible (by your own definition). this season he doubled his career best pre montreal. did he sudden develop his game at age 30?

Matheson played like 6min a game more in mtl than pittsburg and is ev production is still near the same. He was put on the pp by default (he is not good on the pp at all) and its where is anormal production came from.

 

[dgibb10]

Watch is ev production in Winnipeg compare to Mtl. 19pts at even strength in 33 games with the jets and 19pts in 49games with Mtl. Ev prod is direcly releated to the team you play for and I don't know how someone can disagree with that

Sean Monahan has 15 points at even strength in winnipeg. He has 4 empty net points in 33 games, which I guess if you want to say provides more opportunities there sure, but empty net points are relatively flukey anyway. (and I generally don't consider them in my even strength totals, and try to use numbers that don't consider empty netters)

Additionally, Sean Monahan's chance generation hasn't improved much at all.

What has changed is his shooting % at even strength has gone from 7.5% in montreal, to 19.5% in winnipeg.

But hey, if you want to use minor variations in production that come almost entirely from a change in shooting luck and use it to make sweeping generalizations to credit players for being a part of bad teams, be my guest

Seems to me like an excuse for bad teams to blame nobody. "*Insert player here* would be better than *insert player on better team* if he was on better team" seems to make sense, until you try and use it for every player on the team.

And since Mercer hasn't played with Jack Hughes or Nico Hischier this year, to suggest he's getting somehow elite linemates to carry his production is laughable.

Mercer had fantastic even strength production as a rookie on a team that finished bottom 5 in the league.

 

[bud12]

Sean Monahan has 15 points at even strength in winnipeg. He has 4 empty net points in 33 games, which I guess if you want to say provides more opportunities there sure, but empty net points are relatively flukey anyway.

Additionally, Sean Monahan's chance generation hasn't improved much at all.

What has changed is his shooting % at even strength has gone from 7.5% in montreal, to 19.5% in winnipeg.

But hey, if you want to use minor variations in production that come almost entirely from a change in shooting luck and use it to make sweeping generalizations to credit players for being a part of bad teams, be my guest

Seems to me like an excuse for bad teams to blame nobody. "*Insert player here* would be better than *insert player on better team* if he was on better team" seems to make sense, until you try and use it for every player on the team.

And since Mercer hasn't played with Jack Hughes or Nico Hischier this year, to suggest he's getting somehow elite linemates to carry his production is laughable.

Mercer had fantastic even strength production as a rookie on a team that finished bottom 5 in the league.

At the end, 45% of the point he got in Mtl where on the pp and only 20% in Winnipeg and he got the same number of ev point et way less game. You can bring up is higher %shooting but the end result is still here. Playing on a better team help your ev production. Drouin and lehkonen are other exemple

 

[dgibb10]

At the end, he still produced the same with way less games played because he play on a better team witch clearly affect ev production.

Sean Monahan has had an increase in production driven by the fact that his shooting% has doubled.
Same as Kuzmenko who had an increase in production driven by the fact that his shooting% has doubled in Calgary. and he went from a top team to a bottom team.

If your shooting% doubles you will have better results no mattew where you are

His overall on ice results have improved yes with a signififcantly better team.

But at this point I am sick and tired of the "he doesn't have enough help" bullshit about EVERY SINGLE HABS PLAYER.

Dach played most of his minutes alongside Caufield and Suzuki. He couldn't crack 20 points 5v5.
Slaf has played most of his minutes alongside Caufield and Suzuki.

Mercer had his fantastic season alongside Nico Hischier and Tomas Tatar. Now I think nico hischier is underrated. But again, if habs fans want to complain that their players getting top 6 ice time and opportunity don't have enough help, they need to seriously reevaluate how they talk about some guys on the top 6.

Personally I think it's incredibly disrespectful to Suzuki and Caufield.

Mercer's 5 most common linemates are Meier, Haula, Holtz, Palat, and Lazar (about 30% of the time with Meier was with Meier playing on the MCL injuries). No Nico, no Bratt, no Hughes.

Now again, if you want to go our and say Meier Haula Holtz Palat and Lazar for a total of 1300 minutes is more help than for example Slafkovsky playing 1700 minutes total between Caufield and Suzuki, go ahead, I won't stop you.

 

[bud12]

Sean Monahan has had an increase in production driven by the fact that his shooting% has doubled.
Same as Kuzmenko who had an increase in production driven by the fact that his shooting% has doubled in Calgary. and he went from a top team to a bottom team.

If your shooting% doubles you will have better results no mattew where you are

His overall on ice results have improved yes with a signififcantly better team.

But at this point I am sick and tired of the "he doesn't have enough help" bullshit about EVERY SINGLE HABS PLAYER.

Dach played most of his minutes alongside Caufield and Suzuki. He couldn't crack 20 points 5v5.
Slaf has played most of his minutes alongside Caufield and Suzuki.

Mercer had his fantastic season alongside Nico Hischier and Tomas Tatar. Now I think nico hischier is underrated. But again, if habs fans want to complain that their players getting top 6 ice time and opportunity don't have enough help, they need to seriously reevaluate how they talk about some guys on the top 6.

Personally I think it's incredibly disrespectful to Suzuki and Caufield.

Mercer's 5 most common linemates are Meier, Haula, Holtz, Palat, and Lazar (about 30% of the time with Meier was with Meier playing on the MCL injuries). No Nico, no Bratt, no Hughes.

Now again, if you want to go our and say Meier Haula Holtz Palat and Lazar for a total of 1300 minutes is more help than for example Slafkovsky playing 1700 minutes total between Caufield and Suzuki, go ahead, I won't stop you.

I dont care about Mercer or Dach. I just say that playing on a good team help your ev production. And if I'm not mistaken, I think Slaf-Suzuki-Caufield are one of the best 5v5 team since behind put together. It's what they showed during their last game on tv. I didn't verify myself to know if it's true. Still, habs wouldn't trade Guhle for Mercer.

 

[Scintillating10]

The Romanov comparable would be Guhle.

Guhle untouchable unless it's for a proven young NHL first liner.

 

[bud12]

I dont care about Mercer or Dach. I just say that playing on a good team help your ev production. And if I'm not mistaken, I think Slaf-Suzuki-Caufield are one of the best 5v5 team since behind put together. It's what they showed during their last game on tv. I didn't verify myself to know if it's true. Still, habs wouldn't trade Guhle for Mercer even if I would love to have him playing on the 2nd line with dach and newhook

 

[dgibb10]

I dont care about Mercer or Dach. I just say that playing on a good team help your ev production. And if I'm not mistaken, I think Slaf-Suzuki-Caufield are one of the best 5v5 team since behind put together. It's what they showed during their last game on tv. I didn't verify myself to know if it's true. Still, habs wouldn't trade Guhle for Mercer.

And NJD wouldn't trade Mercer for Guhle.

I have them 1 pick apart in a redraft. Both teams should stick with what they have.

I stated at the beginning that Guhle would be an actual fit for NJDs needs, unlike Matheson, and that, if montreal were to make him available, NJD should offer a top 10 pick+sweeteners for him, because it seemed the poster did not really understand NJDs needs, and so I provided a list of guys who would fit in NJD, to assist them with any future proposals.

I have stated that Montreal should keep him.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Interesting how all of Montreal's players are better than all of New Jerseys players, yet when NJ's players outproduce them it's due to NJ having the better team despite all these inferior players.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Lock this thread up, neither team has any interest in the OP and it's now just turned into Juno shitting on every player on the Devils as per usual. Clearly he has some kind of grudge against the Devils.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Lock this thread up, neither team has any interest in the OP and it's now just turned into Juno shitting on every player on the Devils as per usual. Clearly he has some kind of grudge against the Devils.

They’re just a walking L in every thread. The most uninformed posts every time.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

They’re just a walking L in every thread. The most uninformed posts every time.

At least he's consistent lol.

Every single thread about the Devils a few people are bound to show up to talk about how horrible every player on NJ is, and he's one of them.

 

[dgibb10]

Guhle untouchable unless it's for a proven young NHL first liner.

Why would a 2nd pairing young dman return a proven young 1st liner. That doesn't seem to check out.

And again, I am very high on Guhle, I cannot stress this enough. I am a massive fan of his game