More Kessel vs. Toews debate..

[MN_Gopher]

Hope Phil has his golf swing up to par! Where are they now? Homer

wow nice comeback. I am a homer, no doubt, I make a fair assesment of his game you come back junior high style. I love it. Keep on hating.

 

[ryz]

Basically what I am getting out of reading this whole thread and others like it on Kessel is that many, many people seem to think that Kessel has a much higher "BUST" factor than most potential 1st overall picks have ever had (see Daigle) and Toews seems very safe to be at least a better than average player in the NHL when he gets there.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Basically what I am getting out of reading this whole thread and others like it on Kessel is that many, many people seem to think that Kessel has a much higher "BUST" factor than most potential 1st overall picks have ever had (see Daigle) and Toews seems very safe to be at least a better than average player in the NHL when he gets there.

I get the same vibe, but I don't think it's very accurate. Kessel actually has a very projectable pro game, based not so much on flash and dash but impressive physical skills such as his skating and shot. I've seen few players at his level that can back up a defense like he can. It does wonders for the Gophers PP and will be a trademark of his in the pros. Add in a wrist shot that he can let go with little effort in full flight and top notch playmaking skills and you have a special player.

 

[VOB]

You said this on http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=89600&page=8&pp=25






So would you like retract your words. Or is this yet another spin put on by the mighty VOB. And in this one i am right. And i have the proof. Should have never picked a fight with a guy that knows how to research. But i guess you still have five years. But man my odds are looking good right now.

Ummm, isn't that what I said, that Carter will be better than Vanek within the next five years????? Heck yes the bet is still on. Again, as of right now, Vanek has 9 more points than Carter while receiving more ice time, including special teams play. To say that Vanek has clearly established himself as the better player is not only premature but shortsighted as well. How many Philly and Buffalo games have you watched? The only thing Vanek has over Carter right now is offensive point totals but Carter is still within striking distance. Unlike Vanek though, Carter is not a defensive liability. There are some who will say right now that they like Carter better. More will be saying that next year and within four years, I full believe that Carter will establish himself as the better player.

This thread of coure Kessel and Toews, and as another poster has already shown, Toews offensive production has equaled that of Kessel during the latter half of the season.

 

[VOB]

If seasons were stretches i would agree. But a season is a season. And Kessel out scored Toews by a fair margin.

Toews "stretches" have come at the right time and he has improved as a player through the course of the season more than Kessel.

 

[VOB]

I get the same vibe, but I don't think it's very accurate. Kessel actually has a very projectable pro game, based not so much on flash and dash but impressive physical skills such as his skating and shot. I've seen few players at his level that can back up a defense like he can. It does wonders for the Gophers PP and will be a trademark of his in the pros. Add in a wrist shot that he can let go with little effort in full flight and top notch playmaking skills and you have a special player.

The problem is though that his speed will be less effective in the NHL. Yes he has the ability to back up the D at the college level but will he do so in the pro ranks? The WJC suggests that he will not.

Don't misunderstand me, I like Kessel and he will be a good NHL player but Toews game is simply better and that is why I see him being the better of the two.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Toews "stretches" have come at the right time and he has improved as a player through the course of the season more than Kessel.

I totally disagree. If anything, Toews has seen rapid improvement in a relatively short period of time while Kessel is the one who has shown steady development in his overall game. Not picking on you here, but I also see too much credit being given to one player for his team's success (Toews) and too much criticism to one player for his team's struggles (Kessel). Kessel had a GREAT year this year, but few seem to want to recognize that, on the other hand Toews has a good stretch of games and all of a sudden he's the next coming? Seems odd to me.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Ummm, isn't that what I said, that Carter will be better than Vanek within the next five years????? Heck yes the bet is still on. Again, as of right now, Vanek has 9 more points than Carter while receiving more ice time, including special teams play. To say that Vanek has clearly established himself as the better player is not only premature but shortsighted as well. How many Philly and Buffalo games have you watched? The only thing Vanek has over Carter right now is offensive point totals but Carter is still within striking distance. Unlike Vanek though, Carter is not a defensive liability. There are some who will say right now that they like Carter better. More will be saying that next year and within four years, I full believe that Carter will establish himself as the better player.

This thread of coure Kessel and Toews, and as another poster has already shown, Toews offensive production has equaled that of Kessel during the latter half of the season.

You said Carter vs Vanek or any other gopher that played. So i get Ballard and Martin as well.

 

[Chrisd]

vanek will dookie all over carter

 

[Rabid Ranger]

The problem is though that his speed will be less effective in the NHL. Yes he has the ability to back up the D at the college level but will he do so in the pro ranks? The WJC suggests that he will not.

Don't misunderstand me, I like Kessel and he will be a good NHL player but Toews game is simply better and that is why I see him being the better of the two.

1) The WJC is hardly the harbinger for NHL success. Besides, why do some people keep harping on "the move"? Kessel has more in his arsenal than that. Bottomline is he has elite speed.

2) How is Toews' game "simply better"? Intangibles? Toews has neither the skill nor the production of Kessel. Granted, that could change at the pro level, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I don't understand it. Kessel clearly has superior skills and puts up better numbers yet he's the inferior player?

 

[MN_Gopher]

I do realize that Kessel may not translate. But having watched a guy like Gaborik. Who is mostly spped with a rocket of a shot progress. He was ok his rookie year. Then has gotten better every year. Has allready had a year where he was snake bitten by points. He got stronger and in LeMaires system he is learning to play D and be total player. The ability of Kessel is there. In the new NHL speed is a big factor. Plus his vision and ability to get the puck where it needs to be is second to none in his class. It all lies in his work ethic.

 

[crosby_87]

1) The WJC is hardly the harbinger for NHL success. Besides, why do some people keep harping on "the move"? Kessel has more in his arsenal than that. Bottomline is he has elite speed.

2) How is Toews' game "simply better"? Intangibles? Toews has neither the skill nor the production of Kessel. Granted, that could change at the pro level, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I don't understand it. Kessel clearly has superior skills and puts up better numbers yet he's the inferior player?

1) Have to agree. After watching quite a few gopher games this year, Phil quit trying the move so much and played much smarter. He has top speed that is incredible.

2) His game isn't necessarily better. He does have the intangibles over Kessel. Kessel has neither the heart nor the leadership that Toews does. Those are some pretty big intangibles. I personally see Kessel turning into Martin St. Louis, and Toews turning into a smaller Vinny Lecavalier. We'll see I guess.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

1) Have to agree. After watching quite a few gopher games this year, Phil quit trying the move so much and played much smarter. He has top speed that is incredible.

2) His game isn't necessarily better. He does have the intangibles over Kessel. Kessel has neither the heart nor the leadership that Toews does. Those are some pretty big intangibles. I personally see Kessel turning into Martin St. Louis, and Toews turning into a smaller Vinny Lecavalier. We'll see I guess.

Here's the deal folks, Phil Kessel is an incredibly shy and awkward kid. He's a quiet personality who likes to shun the spotlight and just play hockey. I think people misunderstand that for lack of fire or lack of leadership. Think Joe Sakic, especially the early years. Sakic's always been a quiet, unassuming type. That doesn't mean he doesn't care or doesn't want to win. Kessel's the same way.

 

[crosby_87]

Here's the deal folks, Phil Kessel is an incredibly shy and awkward kid. He's a quiet personality who likes to shun the spotlight and just play hockey. I think people misunderstand that for lack of fire or lack of leadership. Think Joe Sakic, especially the early years. Sakic's always been a quiet, unassuming type. That doesn't mean he doesn't care or doesn't want to win. Kessel's the same way.

I guess we'll see in the future. But what do you think of my Kessel-St. Louis comparison?

 

[VOB]

You said Carter vs Vanek or any other gopher that played. So i get Ballard and Martin as well.

Yes and that means he will turn out to be the better player of any gopher that played that year....it did not mean that he would surpass the collective Gophs point totals!

 

[VOB]

1) The WJC is hardly the harbinger for NHL success. Besides, why do some people keep harping on "the move"? Kessel has more in his arsenal than that. Bottomline is he has elite speed.

2) How is Toews' game "simply better"? Intangibles? Toews has neither the skill nor the production of Kessel. Granted, that could change at the pro level, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I don't understand it. Kessel clearly has superior skills and puts up better numbers yet he's the inferior player?

Kessel has superior skills??? In what way. Yes his speed is better but have you seen Toews shoot the puck lately? Is Kessel's on ice vision better than Toews...I think not! Is Kessel stronger in his own end? Does Kessel own the boards like Toews? Is Kessel as strong on the puck as Toews????

The WJC may not be a total indication of pro success (although it is a good barometer), that was not my point. When Kessel was faced with a mobile and phyiscal D, he neither intimitated them, out flanked them nor caused them to collapse on their own net....for the most part, Canada's D shut him down completly.

His speed will be less of a factor in the NHL as it is now.

Toews has stepped up when it counted....an underage freshman being named tournament MVP is a huge accomplishment...you can think of it as his coming out party.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Kessel has superior skills??? In what way. Yes his speed is better but have you seen Toews shoot the puck lately? Is Kessel's on ice vision better than Toews...I think not! Is Kessel stronger in his own end? Does Kessel own the boards like Toews? Is Kessel as strong on the puck as Toews????

The WJC may not be a total indication of pro success (although it is a good barometer), that was not my point. When Kessel was faced with a mobile and phyiscal D, he neither intimitated them, out flanked them nor caused them to collapse on their own net....for the most part, Canada's D shut him down completly.

His speed will be less of a factor in the NHL as it is now.

Toews has stepped up when it counted....an underage freshman being named tournament MVP is a huge accomplishment...you can think of it as his coming out party.

Tallackson was also MVP of a reginal.

And Kessels vision is just as good as Toews. And you cannot compare who owns the boards. Does Toews own the majority of the rink like Kessel does? You are arguing small aspects then downplaying what Kessel does better. If Toews is this great passer how does he end up with only 17 assist while Kessel gets 33?

 

[firstroundbust]

I don't understand it. Kessel clearly has superior skills and puts up better numbers yet he's the inferior player?

because he's american

 

[VOB]

Tallackson was also MVP of a reginal.

And Kessels vision is just as good as Toews. And you cannot compare who owns the boards. Does Toews own the majority of the rink like Kessel does? You are arguing small aspects then downplaying what Kessel does better. If Toews is this great passer how does he end up with only 17 assist while Kessel gets 33?

Easy, Toews did not have the pleasure of playing with Irmen and Potulny on the PP, thats why. Ask any NoDak fan about Toews uncanny ability to find an open player and if he had snipers like Potulny, he probably would had more assists than Kessel!

And yes, Toews certainly ownes the majority of the rink like Kessel does!

I didnt' know Tallackson was MVP of a regional as a 17 year old?!?! Oh wait, that's because he WASN'T!

 

[VOB]

I totally disagree. If anything, Toews has seen rapid improvement in a relatively short period of time while Kessel is the one who has shown steady development in his overall game. Not picking on you here, but I also see too much credit being given to one player for his team's success (Toews) and too much criticism to one player for his team's struggles (Kessel). Kessel had a GREAT year this year, but few seem to want to recognize that, on the other hand Toews has a good stretch of games and all of a sudden he's the next coming? Seems odd to me.

Kessel was given ample ice time, including a generous amount of PP time right from the start of the season. Has he improved...of course. Toews on the other hand was not given nearly the ice time and had to make a big adjustment to the college game and he has grown leaps and bounds since then. Toews rate of improvement and devlopment has exceeded that of Kessel.

Its not that Toews has had a good few games, over the past 15 games, he has exceeded Kessel's point production and that isn't just a "stretch" but rather over a 1/3rd of the season. When it mattered most, Toews stepped up.

 

[Sammy*]

because he's american

Ah, no. Its called an opinion & cause scouts & posters project into the future, as well as how ones "skills" (whatever they may be, & there is a heck of alot more than being fast & having a shot) translates into the NHL.

 

[jaydub*]

Kessel was given ample ice time, including a generous amount of PP time right from the start of the season. Has he improved...of course. Toews on the other hand was not given nearly the ice time and had to make a big adjustment to the college game and he has grown leaps and bounds since then. Toews rate of improvement and devlopment has exceeded that of Kessel.

Its not that Toews has had a good few games, over the past 15 games, he has exceeded Kessel's point production and that isn't just a "stretch" but rather over a 1/3rd of the season. When it mattered most, Toews stepped up.

im guessing kessel earned that ice time. I don't see how its negative for a freshman to earn ice time all season, rather than just at the end of the season.

and it is pretty unfair to decide who plays better "when it matters most". I mean we are basing this on 3-4 games. This is an insanely small sample size here. In addition, some people refuse to look at the big picture (how well the did in college playoffs/WJC/U18) all combined...I mean both of these guys have had times when they played well in big games and times when they didn't

 

[Transported Upstater]

Ah, no. Its called an opinion & cause scouts & posters project into the future, as well as how ones "skills" (whatever they may be, & there is a heck of alot more than being fast & having a shot) translates into the NHL.

Whether Phil Kessel projects well into the NHL is a matter of opinion, but right now, he is a better player than Jonathan Toews.

This coming from a guy who is NOT a Kessel fan and HATES the University of Minnesota.

Whether Kessel will be better in the future is open to discussion. I may be wrong, but I thought that the recent few posts were discussing the two kids at the present time, in which Phil is a superior player.

But Toews gives me a feeling of security when watching him play, like he is mature beyond his years, and I most certainly do not get that feeling from Kessel. However, Phil will give you plenty of "wow" moments, something I have yet to see from Toews.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Easy, Toews did not have the pleasure of playing with Irmen and Potulny on the PP, thats why. Ask any NoDak fan about Toews uncanny ability to find an open player and if he had snipers like Potulny, he probably would had more assists than Kessel!

And yes, Toews certainly ownes the majority of the rink like Kessel does!

I didnt' know Tallackson was MVP of a regional as a 17 year old?!?! Oh wait, that's because he WASN'T!

How do you explain Kessel setting up offensive power house Ben Gordon. A guy that did not score a goal last year and before Hirsch was asked to take a red shirt? How many of Bourques goals went through Kessel? Kessel was setting up everyone on the ice. He did it last year with the u18 team too.

I know Tallackson was not 17. And if you are careful and re-read the post i did not say he was a 17 year old MVP. But an MVP non-the less. So its not the biggest factor in determining greatness.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Kessel was given ample ice time, including a generous amount of PP time right from the start of the season. Has he improved...of course. Toews on the other hand was not given nearly the ice time and had to make a big adjustment to the college game and he has grown leaps and bounds since then. Toews rate of improvement and devlopment has exceeded that of Kessel.

Its not that Toews has had a good few games, over the past 15 games, he has exceeded Kessel's point production and that isn't just a "stretch" but rather over a 1/3rd of the season. When it mattered most, Toews stepped up.

Kessle earned his time. As do all gopher players. Vanek ended up on a line with Smaagard and Fleming for a bit. Now why? Lucia has sat Taffe, Vanek, Irmen, asked for more from Leopold and called out Ballard. Think he gave Kessel a free pass? Not at all.