Miller vs Kreider

[Revel]

Do you have this analysis for Miller as well?

There is no vid for JT.

To be clear on Kreider....I'm not arguing that he is "bad". Bern thinks he has a terrific shot, when that is clearly not his game. His game is to get low and deflect or put on a power move and slide the puck in.

Wish there was a vid for JT so we could compare, but alas....

 

[bernmeister]

Do you have this analysis for Miller as well?

EDIT - And I'm also unsure if you're implying here that "a whole lot of deflections" are a bad thing. I don't think you are. I think this is your rebuttal to a conversation about Kreider's shot and shot alone. But those "whole lot of deflections" means that Kreider was going to the net and doing his job. Again, don't think this is you saying that deflections are a bad thing, and think it's more as a rebuttal to Kreider's shot, but I just wanted to make sure.

There is no vid for JT.

To be clear on Kreider....I'm not arguing that he is "bad". Bern thinks he has a terrific shot, when that is clearly not his game. His game is to get low and deflect or put on a power move and slide the puck in.

Wish there was a vid for JT so we could compare, but alas....

He has been told, apparently to play a certain game and he is being a good solider cause no one else on the team can handle the crease.

ergo some of those deflections.
others come from that hard shot

he should, like every player, max his repertoire and use that variety of shot arsenal to be at his best.

He should not ignore productive opportunities that involve:
His game is to get low and deflect or put on a power move and slide the puck in.

that said, he has snapped some real whizzers, and that IS the point.
He DOES have a power shot.

 

[gorangers0525]

Miller was pretty lucky last season and Kreider was pretty unlucky, so hard to tell.

 

[Machinehead]

Kreider is a better player.

Miller shot like a million percent this past year and scored as many goals as Kreider always does.

Miller was pretty lucky last season and Kreider was pretty unlucky, so hard to tell.

Yeah and Kreider still had as many points in fewer games, so no, not hard to tell.

 

[Ori]

It is a very tough call looking at last season. I think both are solid 2nd line players right now. I'm glad we have both and do not have to choose.

Yeah, true that - I think Miller have better potential for sure. But he need to improve defensive as well.

 

[darko]

Kreider.

But both will be good players.

 

[NYR713]

They're similar types to a point, but different styles of player. Both can play the power game but Miller sits on the finesse side of the Power Forward spectrum and Kreider more to the more physical style of it.

I think both will start to settle into their roles this season and both will increase production with Miller having the higher point total around 55. It started to click last season, in more than just a scoring sense and I say he's going to be taking a big step forward. You may say I'm a dreamer...

Kreider upped his agitation and physical play coming into last season and, from some things he's said this off season, he's going to be looking to take the physical presence level up another notch. He'll get his deflection goals and breakaways here and there and should be around 25/25 this season with 2 or 3 fights by the time regular season ends.

 

[KreiderHouseRules*]

Miller will be like a Dubinsky-lite. 20-25 goals, 25-30 assists.

I do believe a player with Kreider's rare skillset and combination of size, strength, and blazing speed takes longer to fully develop and learn how to consistently find that extra gear / intensity. Once he realizes how good he is, and how good he can be, I see multiple 30+ 60+ point seasons from him.

Just my opinion.

 

[BroadwayStorm]

Kreider has a lot more talent. I think he is dogged way too much on these boards. He is one of the Rangers that actually does something in the playoffs which I can't say for a lot of them. He will put it together and then everyone will love him.

I like Miller but he is a second line player at his highest ceiling. Really a third liner who can score. A solid jack of all trades and master of none.

 

[FLYLine27*]

Miller will be like a Dubinsky-lite. 20-25 goals, 25-30 assists.

I do believe a player with Kreider's rare skillset and combination of size, strength, and blazing speed takes longer to fully develop and learn how to consistently find that extra gear / intensity. Once he realizes how good he is, and how good he can be, I see multiple 30+ 60+ point seasons from him.

Just my opinion.

So basically, he won't get any better than last season aside from maybe another few goals and assists?

Okay.

 

[silverfish]

So basically, he won't get any better than last season aside from maybe another few goals and assists?

Okay.

No. He'll probably get worse. Less goals, more secondary assists.

 

[FLYLine27*]

No. He'll probably get worse. Less goals, more secondary assists.

Way passed his prime years. He had a good run at least.

 

[silverfish]

Way passed his prime years. He had a good run at least.

It's not that, but more coming to the conclusion that his shooting percentage last season isn't maintainable. He outshot his AHL rate.

He had a lucky season.

 

[FLYLine27*]

It's not that, but more coming to the conclusion that his shooting percentage last season isn't maintainable. He outshot his AHL rate.

He had a lucky season.

That's like assuming he won't get better with other things, getting open, handling the puck, being stronger in front of the net, etc. All those things will offset his lucky shoot percentage this year and he will score more.

Or maybe his percentage drops to 12% but he shoots 10% more shots now that he's a year older and more confident with the puck?

You can't just factor in one thing and leave out everything else that he will improve with.

 

[silverfish]

That's like assuming he won't get better with other things, getting open, handling the puck, being stronger in front of the net, etc. All those things will offset his lucky shoot percentage this year and he will score more.

The only thing that can off-set the decrease in his shooting percentage that will most likely happen is if he shoots the puck more. That will necessitate a wild change to JT's game. Further, he's now presumed to be playing on a line with Zib as his center and not Brassard. Zib is more of a shooter than Brass is. Maybe Miller will get less opportunities to shoot, but more opportunities for assists.

My hypothesis stands.

Less goals.
Roughly the same or slightly more A1s.
More A2s.

I've been wrong before. I'll be wrong again.

 

[Krams]

Kreider is a freak of nature. Athleticism-wise, Miller can't hold a candle to him. But Miller is a more complete player. If Kreider can start hitting the net and find his place on the PP, you've got an invaluable 30G scoring power forward...closest thing you'll get to Lindros in today's game. But I have higher hopes for Miller putting it all together.

 

[Inferno]

im not sure how Miller is a more complete player...i really am not. are we talking about defensive zone play? im not sure either of them are particularly great there.

going to the net? Kreider by far is the better player. Millers probably a better passer, although kreider had better a/60 than miller last season..

im really not sure how miller is at all better than kreider. the only thing id say miller is better at is getting his shots on net...Kreider misses the net far too often..but i do need to check out the stats for that and i dont have the time at the moment.

 

[Kaapo Cabana]

Kreider is a freak of nature. Athleticism-wise, Miller can't hold a candle to him. But Miller is a more complete player. If Kreider can start hitting the net and find his place on the PP, you've got an invaluable 30G scoring power forward...closest thing you'll get to Lindros in today's game. But I have higher hopes for Miller putting it all together.

While he is no Chris Kreider, lets not pretend JT Miller is a pushover.

He is a really strong player

 

[silverfish]

Stepan is also very tough. Look at this YT video of a hit he made that one time.

 

[Krams]

While he is no Chris Kreider, lets not pretend JT Miller is a pushover.

He is a really strong player

He isn't a pushover, he's a strong player... still can't hold a candle to Kreider.

 

[Kaapo Cabana]

Stepan is also very tough. Look at this YT video of a hit he made that one time.

don't be a jackass

The video was a reminder that he is capable of such things.

Do you really expect me to find 47 videos of any time JT Miller uses his strength?

 

[silverfish]

don't be a jackass

The video was a reminder that he is capable of such things.

Do you really expect me to find 47 videos of any time JT Miller uses his strength?

It's less being a jackass, and more just being unsatisfied with this tactic that's used in arguments.

You can find a video of any NHL player doing anything you want.

Dawes undressing Pronger
Stepan flattening Neil
Glass scoring a goal

 

[Raspewtin]

It's less being a jackass, and more just being unsatisfied with this tactic that's used in arguments.

You can find a video of any NHL player doing anything you want.

Dawes undressing Pronger
Stepan flattening Neil
Glass scoring a goal

if NHL.com didn't become totally unusable there are many clips of Millers big hits from post game highlights.

 

[RempireStateBuilding]

Miller is the player that seems to visibly improve season by season. First year, he was pretty bad all over the place. Constantly out of position, pinching at the wrong times, forcing really bad passes and plays, not backchecking hard enough. The following season he ramped up his physical game and his offense came along too. Although his PIM last season was double that of the previous season, it felt like he took a lot less unforced/stupid penalties, granted they still occurred. Like silverfish is saying, his production will most likely take a slight hit next season, but I suspect we'll see better defensive play from him.

Kreider looks more and more lost every season he's spent in the league. It's great he can still put up points in the mid-40s while looking like he has no clue why he's there, but I still have a lot of trouble figuring out what Kreider has gotten better at. He's not a particularly better passer or pass receiver, he's not a particularly better shooter, uses his speed less, uses his body less. I really don't recall much of anything Kreider did until the last ~10 games of the regular season last year. I remember my jaw dropping around game 75 seeing Kreider blow past someone because it was something he hadn't done all season and it was crazy how fast he was.

I'd take Miller over Kreider if there was a choice to be made, but I'm just happy we have both.

 

[silverfish]

if NHL.com didn't become totally unusable there are many clips of Millers big hits from post game highlights.

Not denying that Miller is a physical player. Expressing my thoughts on this type of discussion tactic to prove a point.

Hits as a metric exists. Why not just say that Miller was 2nd on the team in hits last season during 5v5 play?