Mike Modano or Anze Kopitar?

[SeanMoneyHands]

Peak and career, who was the better of the two?

Kopitar - 1211pts in 1372 games. 2 cups, 2 Selkes.
Modano - 1374pts in 1499 games, 1 cup.

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[HolyHagelin]

Solid comparo, i will dig in a little more on them before i vote, flash reaction is that they are practically the same player

 

[x Tame Impala]

I missed a lot of Modano’s career, but based on narrative would it be fair to say Kopitar was a more effective player while Modano had more skill?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Quoting myself from another recent thread:

"I was going to do a deep dive when I have time, but there are a lot of parallels between Modano and Kopitar.

Both spent all (or virtually all) of their career with a southern USA team. Both were excellent two-way players, and probably could have scored more, had they not focused on defense so diligently. Both were pretty clearly the best forward on their team for the majority of their careers. Neither had a really huge peak season (the closest would be Kopitar's 2018 campaign), but were steadily in the 5-10 range among forwards for an extended period. Neither was overly physical, but they weren't pushed around. Both lost the Conn Smythe to a weaker forward in playoff runs when they really should have won.

In terms of differences - Modano was a better skater, and a better goal-scorer. Kopitar was a better playmaker (but overall offensive production was similar). Kopitar's Selke trophy voting results look much stronger, but I think that exaggerates the gap (he was better defensively than Modano, but not by nearly as large a gap as the results would suggest)."

 

[HolyHagelin]

Quoting myself from another recent thread:

"I was going to do a deep dive when I have time, but there are a lot of parallels between Modano and Kopitar.

Both spent all (or virtually all) of their career with a southern USA team. Both were excellent two-way players, and probably could have scored more, had they not focused on defense so diligently. Both were pretty clearly the best forward on their team for the majority of their careers. Neither had a really huge peak season (the closest would be Kopitar's 2018 campaign), but were steadily in the 5-10 range among forwards for an extended period. Neither was overly physical, but they weren't pushed around. Both lost the Conn Smythe to a weaker forward in playoff runs when they really should have won.

In terms of differences - Modano was a better skater, and a better goal-scorer. Kopitar was a better playmaker (but overall offensive production was similar). Kopitar's Selke trophy voting results look much stronger, but I think that exaggerates the gap (he was better defensively than Modano, but not by nearly as large a gap as the results would suggest)."

Modano also lost votes to Guy Carbonneau on his own team for a chunk of years; Carbonneau was so good at defense for so long guys were still arguing for him out of habit.

I missed a lot of Modano’s career, but based on narrative would it be fair to say Kopitar was a more effective player while Modano had more skill?

Saw more Modano than I have of Kopitar, I think the best thing I can say about Modano is that the only reason people have Patty Kane ahead of him as the best US forward is 3>1, nobody who saw them both really thought Kane was better.

Modano had a 50 goal 90 point year and was basically in the doghouse with his coach because he wasn’t playing defense as hard as offense. The narrative around him at the time was “as soon as he sacrificed his offense for the team they became the best team.”

I don’t think I ever heard arguments that Kopitar was the best forward in the league, with Modano there was a few year stretch where he was in that conversation. Ultimately I don’t think Modano’s career lived up to how we talked about him the first 5-7

 

[norrisnick]

Modano also lost votes to Guy Carbonneau on his own team for a chunk of years; Carbonneau was so good at defense for so long guys were still arguing for him out of habit.

Saw more Modano than I have of Kopitar, I think the best thing I can say about Modano is that the only reason people have Patty Kane ahead of him as the best US forward is 3>1, nobody who saw them both really thought Kane was better.

Modano had a 50 goal 90 point year and was basically in the doghouse with his coach because he wasn’t playing defense as hard as offense. The narrative around him at the time was “as soon as he sacrificed his offense for the team they became the best team.”

I don’t think I ever heard arguments that Kopitar was the best forward in the league, with Modano there was a few year stretch where he was in that conversation. Ultimately I don’t think Modano’s career lived up to how we talked about him the first 5-7

Maybe in Minny and/or Texas, but as far the rest of the hockey watching world goes, none of that is ringing any bells.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Modano AINEC

 

[Regal]

Both pretty similar levels of players though went about it differently. I think I liked Modano slightly more in his prime, but Kopitar’s refined his defensive game earlier and looks to be aging better. I could see Kopitar having the case for career when all is said and done.

 

[Spotty 2 Hotty]

Maybe in Minny and/or Texas, but as far the rest of the hockey watching world goes, none of that is ringing any bells.

Thank the Hockey Gods we have someone like you who speaks for the entirety of the hockey world to set the record straight.

 

[Siludin]

Maybe in Minny and/or Texas, but as far the rest of the hockey watching world goes, none of that is ringing any bells.

Modano was as big a name as any of the other 90s players because he was perfectly nestled in that new wave of player while consequently also being an American. Roenick got similar treatment.
Nobody thought Modano was better than Bure, Gretzky, Fedorov - they were just excited that there were some young guys who would seemingly have the potential to be perennial all-stars.

 

[Albatros]

Kopitar peak and career. More success, significantly better defensively, about the same offensively.

 

[LokiDog]

Kopi’s stats are pretty much identical pace wise but the fact that he could have had a few more Selkes if not for the existence of Bergeron makes this an easy Kopitar for me. I live in Dallas, I went to the the Modano statue unveiling, I have tons of love for the high flying game he played in his prime, but I’m always going to go with the complete player over the flashy one when points are similar.

 

[Rorschach]

Can someone compare their wingers?

 

[Felidae]

Kopitar's Selke trophy voting results look much stronger, but I think that exaggerates the gap (he was better defensively than Modano, but not by nearly as large a gap as the results would suggest)."

I'm curious, why do you say this?

As another user pointed out earlier, Kopitar was competing with Bergeron and prime Toews for the selke.

Modano often times wasn't seen as the best defensive forward on his team, so you can't even say where he played affected his placements that much given Lethinen finished higher most years.

Lastly, Modano turned into a two way player later in his career, which is also reflected in his selke record.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I'm curious, why do you say this?

As another user pointed out earlier, Kopitar was competing with Bergeron and prime Toews for the selke.

Modano often times wasn't seen as the best defensive forward on his team, so you can't even say where he played affected his placements that much given Lethinen finished higher most years.

Lastly, Modano turned into a two way player later in his career, which is also reflected in his selke record.

Ultimately, I agree that Kopitar was the better defensive player. What I meant (but didn't really explain) is the voting for the Selke was different during Modano's prime.

During Modano's prime, generally speaking, the voters picked lower scoring 2nd and 3rd line players as the Selke winners/finalists (Lehtinen, Peca, Madden, Draper, Walz, Ricci, Handzus, Arvedson, McCauley etc). Yes, there were exceptions (Forsberg, Sakic) but generally the voters seemed to focus on the forwards who scored less, and really focused on defense. During Kopitar's prime, it felt like the voters were looking for two-way forwards (who played great defense, but also scored a fair bit - Bergeron, Datsyuk, Toews, Richards, Kesler, Couturier, O'Reilly, Stone, Barkov, etc).

I think that if they switched eras, Modano's voting record for the Selke trophy would have improved, and Kopitar's would have gotten worse, simply due to changes in what the voters look for.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I'm curious, why do you say this?

As another user pointed out earlier, Kopitar was competing with Bergeron and prime Toews for the selke.

Modano often times wasn't seen as the best defensive forward on his team, so you can't even say where he played affected his placements that much given Lethinen finished higher most years.

Lastly, Modano turned into a two way player later in his career, which is also reflected in his selke record.

Modano was also really soft early in his career. I remember the year when he scored 50 the hockey news yearbook said something like Modano finally figured out you have to get your hands dirty to score 50 in this league. Something to that effect.

I always maintain that Modano improved defensively, but looks better than he actually was because of his team's philosophy, great goaltending, and a Selke winning winger riding shotgun.

 

[norrisnick]

Ultimately, I agree that Kopitar was the better defensive player. What I meant (but didn't really explain) is the voting for the Selke was different during Modano's prime.

During Modano's prime, generally speaking, the voters picked lower scoring 2nd and 3rd line players as the Selke winners/finalists (Lehtinen, Peca, Madden, Draper, Walz, Ricci, Handzus, Arvedson, McCauley etc). Yes, there were exceptions (Forsberg, Sakic) but generally the voters seemed to focus on the forwards who scored less, and really focused on defense. During Kopitar's prime, it felt like the voters were looking for two-way forwards (who played great defense, but also scored a fair bit - Bergeron, Datsyuk, Toews, Richards, Kesler, Couturier, O'Reilly, Stone, Barkov, etc).

I think that if they switched eras, Modano's voting record for the Selke trophy would have improved, and Kopitar's would have gotten worse, simply due to changes in what the voters look for.

Lehtinen was Modano's most common winger on the top line.

 

[paulwt3]

Saw more Modano than I have of Kopitar, I think the best thing I can say about Modano is that the only reason people have Patty Kane ahead of him as the best US forward is 3>1, nobody who saw them both really thought Kane was better.

I get that you're a Rags fan so you have an unreasonable over the top hatred of Kane and feel duty bound to trash talk him absurdly, but - are you serious?

Patrick Kane is one of 2 players in NHL history to win Hart, Ross, Smythe, Lindsay, Calder and 3 Cups. Mike Modano has 1 Cup and no individual awards. Modano was all-NHL 2nd team once, Kane was all-NHL 1st team 3 times, plus all-NHL 2nd team once. Many of the same voters who voted Kane those awards also were voting during Modano's career, and voted him no awards. They saw them both and thought Kane was much, much better than Modano. I also saw them both, and Kane was much, much better than Modano - still is. Kane's peers also give him the respect, w the Lindsay but also in the annual player votes where every single year he's 1st or 2nd in best stickhandler and best passer.

Kane is the only player in NHL history to have OT goals to win the 2nd round, conference final, and Cup final. Kane led his prime decade in scoring and was 2nd in playoff scoring during that decade. Kane has 2 of the 7 20+ game point streaks of the last 30 years, including the longest. Kane has 7 streaks as long as or longer than Modano's longest, 11. Kane has the 3rd longest assist streak in NHL history. Kane's first 2 hat tricks were in series clinching playoffs wins; he has 4 more career hat tricks than Modano despite having no regular season hatties his first 7 years. Kane is the youngest #1 pick to ever win the Stanley Cup; his teams made 5 runs to the conference finals or beyond, and in all 5 he either led his team in goals or was within 1 goal of doing so. Kane's teams are an absurd 16-1 in game 6. His only career short handed goal was in the closing seconds to tie game 5 of a 2-2 series in a year his team won the Cup. He is tied for 3rd all time in playoff OT goals, w 5, 3 of which won rounds, another one of which prevented elimination. Kane's first career score of any kind in the NHL was a shootout goal at age 18 on Dominik Hasek. He also had the last regular season goal ever scored on Hasek. In 20 games as an 18yo, Kane put up 7g/15a/22pts. Modano got in only 2 games at 18 and was scoreless.

Kane in 269 fewer games trails Modano by 1.9 point shares and 90 points. He is already tied w Modano in assists. By adjusted points, Kane is already ahead of Modano, and 18th all time. By adjusted point SHARES, Kane has 5 regular seasons better than Modano's best season; and Modano has 4 seasons worse than Kane's worst season. Kane's career comps by adjusted point shares are guys like Gordie Howe, the Hulls, Marcel Dionne, Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman. Modano's comps are guys like Mark Recchi, Marian Hossa, Keith Tkachuk. And that's just regular seasons - Kane is famously a playoff player who before his big contract didn't even care in the regular season. He is the leader of the only dynasty of the cap era, and is generally considered one of the most clutch playoff performers in NHL history. He is also clutch in the regular season, and is the all time league leader in shootout goals, shootout winners, and OT assists (4th in OT points behind only Ovi, Sid and Geno).

And your "saw them both" bit is especially funny. As if the eye test and personal direct experience of each would favor Modano. No. Kane was and even still IS a menace on the ice, and at the worst times (best for his team, worst for his opponent). Highlight reels for both are freely available on youtube. Kane's is full of him doing absurd hero stuff and highlight plays at the biggest moments in the biggest games, over and over again. He is probably the best highlight player ever or close. Also the NHL Playoffs logo is visible on the ice constantly throughout Kane's career highlight reel, probably to a greater extent than for any other player. Kane also was the best player on the ice late in the gold medal game of the 2010 Olympics, and his 3rd period of that biggest game ever, vs prime Crosby, is worth noting. He primaried on 2 American goals to take it from a 2-0 3rd period deficit into overtime, while also chasing down Crosby on a breakaway late in the 3rd and preventing a putaway goal.

The very thorough hall of fame monitoring site adjustedhockey has Kane currently 21st best forward career all time, with an outside shot of still ending up in the 'inner circle' of the greatest handful of forward careers ever. According to him Kane is the 8th most efficient era adjusted scorer in NHL history, and one of only a very few players in the cap era to be rated best in the league in more than one season. Mike Modano is rated 29th all time best forward career as of today, with Kuch and Marchand possibly pushing him out of the top 30 as soon as the next update.

Patrick Kane is a unicorn. One of the very special players in league history. Go look up the numbers of him and the other guy in this convo, Kopitar, in their two conference final matchups. And Kane wouldn't just do it, he'd do it with the best guys on the other team on the ice during all the highlights. On purpose. Kopitar and Doughty were always right there on the screen. All part of the show.

edited to add

Despite his 'worst defender ever' reputation, which is nonsense pushed by analytics leftists w an agenda using his injured/tank team years to push it, Kane for his career is around a +120 player at 5v5, and before the tanking and injury he was around a +140 player at 5v5 - about the same as McDavid, Ovechkin, and Geno. His minuses are all from shorthanded goals, goals against the empty net, and 4v4 deficits (Kane actually has always been bad 4v4) accumulated over his career. During the heart of the Hawks dynasty he was always a solid + in the playoffs. And he was out there even late, close, protecting one goal leads, you name it. A defensively stifling dominant dynasty never sprung a leak w him out there in the biggest moments, even as he didn't play w either Selke forward during those years. Quenneville trusted him implicitly. Also trusted him protecting a lead at the end of games w the other team's net empty.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I watched most of Modano's career.

He's way so overrated. Never was he ever considered a top 10 Center in his career. Even then maybe outside top 20 forwards.

Maybe it's unfair he played most of his career against Gretzky Messier Lemieux Francis Lindros Yzerman Sakic Forsberg Federov Gilmour Sundin

But for some reason it seems like a sin to knock him down a few pegs. For some stupid reason, he's retroactively being propped up post retirement.


But no, he wasn't THAT good. He was alright, but I'm not even sure I would consider him elite.

 

[Regal]

I watched most of Modano's career.

He's way so overrated. Never was he ever considered a top 10 Center in his career. Even then maybe outside top 20 forwards.

Maybe it's unfair he played most of his career against Gretzky Messier Lemieux Francis Lindros Yzerman Sakic Forsberg Federov Gilmour Sundin

But for some reason it seems like a sin to knock him down a few pegs. For some stupid reason, he's retroactively being propped up post retirement.


But no, he wasn't THAT good. He was alright, but I'm not even sure I would consider him elite.

That’s ridiculous. He was pretty consistently considered one from 96-97 to 02-03

 

[Xirik]

Even though He wasn't captain for very long he seem synonymous with the title at least for me. He was a great player and whatever the poll says for Kopitar to be though similar to Madano is a huge compliment.

 

[Goptor]

Its a pretty easy choice if Kopitar can get past 1500 games.

 

[CanadienShark]

Kopitar peak and career, but it's very close.

 

[Felidae]

I watched most of Modano's career.

He's way so overrated. Never was he ever considered a top 10 Center in his career. Even then maybe outside top 20 forwards.

Maybe it's unfair he played most of his career against Gretzky Messier Lemieux Francis Lindros Yzerman Sakic Forsberg Federov Gilmour Sundin

But for some reason it seems like a sin to knock him down a few pegs. For some stupid reason, he's retroactively being propped up post retirement.


But no, he wasn't THAT good. He was alright, but I'm not even sure I would consider him elite.

What 10 centers were better than him in the late 90s, early 2000s? Cause I don't see how he's not a top 10 center in that timeframe where he had his best seasons.

 

[Gordon Lightfoot]

Kopitar