Mike Modano, a Hall of Famer?

[seventieslord]

Staying healthy enough to play whether through luck, conditioning, or toughness is a plus. Ask Lemieux or Orr or any other player who has missed a lot of games.

Yeah, it's a plus to stay healthy, but is it a "minus" for someone else who has the exact same achievement but had a 20-game injury in the middle of the streak? That's all I'm saying. One little groin pull and then no one would be able to claim he had some streak like this. Or being born 5 years later would have done it too.

As for Modano vs. Hawerchuk.. Hawerchuk wins the top 10 finishes handily as well. No matter how this is spun Hawerchuk is clearly a better offensive player no matter what Infinite Vision or anyone else here thinks of my "opinion".

Hawerchuk - 3rd, 4th, 7th, 9th.
Modano - 8th, 9th.

Why don't we just compare top-3 seasons, for that matter? Then Hawerchuk is infinitely better! 1-0!

Not sure why you'd want to step closer, from where you would see less of the big picture as opposed to more:

Modano: 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 30, 32, 33, 35.
Hawerchuk: 3, 4, 7, 9, 11, 11, 11, 13, 16, 18, 25, 26.

Hawerchuk leads just 4-3 in top-10 seasons and 10-7 in top-20 seasons.

You make this sound like we are comparing Nik Antropov and Mats Sundin. I fully realize that after proper adjustments Hawerchuk can come out on top offensively. But there should be no doubt that this is close enough that defense can bridge the gap.

And these placements are not directly comparable, anyway. All of Hawerchuk's best years are 1994 and earlier, and all of Modano's are 1992 and later. To not account for the European influx is putting blinders on.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Why don't we just compare top-3 seasons, for that matter? Then Hawerchuk is infinitely better! 1-0!

Not sure why you'd want to step closer, from where you would see less of the big picture as opposed to more:

Modano: 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 30, 32, 33, 35.
Hawerchuk: 3, 4, 7, 9, 11, 11, 11, 13, 16, 18, 25, 26.

Hawerchuk leads just 4-3 in top-10 seasons and 10-7 in top-20 seasons.

Yeah if 3=8 and 4=9... and after those 7 years for Modano.. 13 to 30.. 16 to 32.. yeah, they are almost the same. I love the sarcasm you give me when you try to smoke up stuff like this right afterwards.

You make this sound like we are comparing Nik Antropov and Mats Sundin. I fully realize that after proper adjustments Hawerchuk can come out on top offensively. But there should be no doubt that this is close enough that defense can bridge the gap.

We're not talking about defense.. we're talking about offense. You know as well as anyone Hawerchuk could play defense if that was his role. Hawerchuk is better offensively no matter which way it is spun. He was expected to play offensively and he did at a level Modano was never capable or allowed to.. who knows which.

And these placements are not directly comparable, anyway. All of Hawerchuk's best years are 1994 and earlier, and all of Modano's are 1992 and later. To not account for the European influx is putting blinders on.

Compared to his peers it is directly comparable. That is the whole point of doing finishes in the first place.

Not to mention that playing against prime Gretzky/Bossy/Trottier/Lemieux etc. would probably more than make up for that in the first place. How many top 100 players was Hawerchuk competing directly against in his prime compared to Modano? I'd bet a lot more without even having to look.

If you want to try and make the case he was against weaker competition then you'd better start doing it for O6 players and earlier too. Not to mention the HOH statistical sweetheart Bobby Orr playing in an expanded AND watered down league. But I know you won't, you're just being contrary.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

But Mike Modano couldn't hold a candle to Hawerchuk's offensive abilities...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXh4kwAvS88&feature=related

Am I right?

 

[BraveCanadian]

But Mike Modano couldn't hold a candle to Hawerchuk's offensive abilities...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXh4kwAvS88&feature=related

Am I right?

Right.

And if we're talking highlight videos my favourite one was the one that CBC did about Modano back in his early career that had Unbelievable by EMF as the background track.

 

[JackSlater]

And then we add on that Winnipeg was a poor team playing in a very strong division and we're back to..

A strong division is enough to boost Hawerchuk from a comparable but slightly better offensive player to a much better player offensively? Even though the division wasn't filled with great defensive teams? I don't think so.

As for Modano vs. Hawerchuk.. Hawerchuk wins the top 10 finishes handily as well. No matter how this is spun Hawerchuk is clearly a better offensive player no matter what Infinite Vision or anyone else here thinks of my "opinion".

Infinite Vision is saying that they are comparable offensively, and it seems that he is giving the edge to Hawerchuk. As far as your opinion, the issue is not that you think Hawerchuk is the better offensive player (I think almost everyone agrees on that), it's that you are stating

Therefore, like I said: Hawerchuk >>>> Modano offensively.

which implies that Hawerchuk is a far superior offensive player, not just better.

 

[seventieslord]

Yeah if 3=8 and 4=9... and after those 7 years for Modano.. 13 to 30.. 16 to 32.. yeah, they are almost the same. I love the sarcasm you give me when you try to smoke up stuff like this right afterwards.

I'm pointing out the absurdity of boiling it down to something as simple as top-10 seasons (not to mention the removal of Modano's 3rd top-10 season, a 10th, which is like the 4th time this has happened in this thread)

The further back you step, the bigger piece of the picture you see. Why drill the top-10 gap in (wow, 4-3, what a gap that is) when you can move even closer and talk about his 2-0 edge in top-5 seasons?

We're not talking about defense.. we're talking about offense. You know as well as anyone Hawerchuk could play defense if that was his role. Hawerchuk is better offensively no matter which way it is spun. He was expected to play offensively and he did at a level Modano was never capable or allowed to.. who knows which.

Maybe Hawerchuk could have done it if it was asked of him on a regular basis, maybe not. We don't really know. And what we really don't know is if he could have been a consistent top-16 scorer (which is like top-10 in the 80s) while also focusing on defense.

Compared to his peers it is directly comparable. That is the whole point of doing finishes in the first place.

Not to mention that playing against prime Gretzky/Bossy/Trottier/Lemieux etc. would probably more than make up for that in the first place. How many top 100 players was Hawerchuk competing directly against in his prime compared to Modano? I'd bet a lot more without even having to look.

Perception of Modano's era simply hasn't caught up yet. People are still obsessed with the gaudy totals stars were able to compile from 1975-1994.

Maybe I have you confused with someone else, but aren't you the one who refuses to give the Soviets any credit for anything? If so, I may as well just stop now. Arguing that a bunch of them would have scored 80+ points in the NHL throughout the 80s would be like pissing up a rope.

If you want to try and make the case he was against weaker competition then you'd better start doing it for O6 players and earlier too. Not to mention the HOH statistical sweetheart Bobby Orr playing in an expanded AND watered down league. But I know you won't, you're just being contrary.

Why drag Orr into this? I fully agree the NHL was at its weakest in the 1970s but Orr's dominance transcended that completely. Your love for Gretzky is getting to be sickening, you'll trash Orr any chance you'll get to raise Gretzky higher. It's amazing the moves he could pull off on the ice with you right there spooning him.

As for the O6 era, up to about 1960 I consider the best in the NHL the best in the world. Around 1960 the Soviets started producing players comparable to our stars. After that point, yes, some consideration to them is worthwhile.

Any more criticisms of my evaluations, or is that all?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

to shift the emphasis a bit-- and hopefully to restore a bit of civility to this thread-- i haven't gotten around to re-watching the '87 canada cup but my memory is that hawerchuk took on a defensive role against the soviets and really surprised people with defensive abilities many didn't know he had. with the recent DVD release, can anyone who has re-watched these games comment?

i'm sure modano is still by some margin the superior defensive player, but i don't think you can compare hawerchuk to, say, turgeon or savard defensively.

 

[seventieslord]

i'm sure modano is still by some margin the superior defensive player, but i don't think you can compare hawerchuk to, say, turgeon or savard defensively.

Oh, no, not at all, I completely agree.

 

[BraveCanadian]

to shift the emphasis a bit-- and hopefully to restore a bit of civility to this thread-- i haven't gotten around to re-watching the '87 canada cup but my memory is that hawerchuk took on a defensive role against the soviets and really surprised people with defensive abilities many didn't know he had. with the recent DVD release, can anyone who has re-watched these games comment?

i'm sure modano is still by some margin the superior defensive player, but i don't think you can compare hawerchuk to, say, turgeon or savard defensively.

Yes he did.

He was also the guy who won the faceoff that started the famous play Gretzky and Lemieux finished.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I'm pointing out the absurdity of boiling it down to something as simple as top-10 seasons (not to mention the removal of Modano's 3rd top-10 season, a 10th, which is like the 4th time this has happened in this thread)

Boil it down however you like.. it won't matter.

Perception of Modano's era simply hasn't caught up yet. People are still obsessed with the gaudy totals stars were able to compile from 1975-1994.

Well its a good thing that Modano's is the first era that you were old enough to really appreciate first hand and coincidentally are here to teach us all..

I watched it too. And I find it funny how they get extra credit for being forced to play more responsibly defensively while you won't give credit to players for playing well offensively when that was the style of the time. Instead you penalize them for not being as sound defensively in an era where that wasn't as valued.

Maybe I have you confused with someone else, but aren't you the one who refuses to give the Soviets any credit for anything? If so, I may as well just stop now. Arguing that a bunch of them would have scored 80+ points in the NHL throughout the 80s would be like pissing up a rope.

Nope, I'm usually the guy bringing the competition into the question in many of the arguments around here.

Why drag Orr into this? I fully agree the NHL was at its weakest in the 1970s but Orr's dominance transcended that completely. Your love for Gretzky is getting to be sickening, you'll trash Orr any chance you'll get to raise Gretzky higher. It's amazing the moves he could pull off on the ice with you right there spooning him.

As for the O6 era, up to about 1960 I consider the best in the NHL the best in the world. Around 1960 the Soviets started producing players comparable to our stars. After that point, yes, some consideration to them is worthwhile.

Any more criticisms of my evaluations, or is that all?

Well done with the personal attack. Sure I'm a big fan of Gretzky.. what hockey fan isn't? I'm also a big fan of Orr. I just don't spoon him like you do because of statistical accomplishments that are heavily influenced by the lack of competition. Which was the point of bringing him in. You pick and choose when things apply to suit whatever point you're trying to make.

The only constant is the fact that you condescend people and are never, ever, in error.

 

[seventieslord]

And I find it funny how they get extra credit for being forced to play more responsibly defensively while you won't give credit to players for playing well offensively when that was the style of the time. Instead you penalize them for not being as sound defensively in an era where that wasn't as valued.

Don't mistake that for not seeing things relatively. Every era had its elite defensive forwards, in relation to the standards that existed at the time. the standards in Modano's time might have been higher, with the Sakic/Forsberg/Yzerman/Messier/Fedorov/Gilmour/Francis generation proving the value of the two-way star center like never before. But surely you must admit that Modano was much better, in relation to that standard, than Hawerchuk was in relation to his. No?

Well done with the personal attack. Sure I'm a big fan of Gretzky.. what hockey fan isn't? I'm also a big fan of Orr. I just don't spoon him like you do because of statistical accomplishments that are heavily influenced by the lack of competition.

See, actually, I like Gretzky over Orr. Orr to me is a solid 3rd all time due to a lack of career length. I often say Orr is the best "per game" player of all-time though. My favourite stats regarding Orr revolve around his outperforming of his own teammates, so how is this influenced by a lack of competition?

The only constant is the fact that you condescend people and are never, ever, in error.

you missed one "ever", otherwise, good work finally admitting it.

/discussion

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I watched it too. And I find it funny how they get extra credit for being forced to play more responsibly defensively while you won't give credit to players for playing well offensively when that was the style of the time. Instead you penalize them for not being as sound defensively in an era where that wasn't as valued.

I mentioned something like this earlier in the thread and I am quoting you because more people really need to think about this. I think it was GBC who commented that players in the 1980s actually were a bit better than their Dead Puck Era counterparts, because at the time, offensive ability was the main thing GMs were looking for, and the main thing coaches encouraged. And I think there is a lot of merit to this.

I usually use rankings myself (top 10 finishes, etc) because it really was easier to score in the 80s, due to the style of the game. But I definitely think that it's inconsistent to view offense in such relativistic terms, while viewing defense and intangibles in absolutist terms - I really think this is why Original 6 players tend to be a bit overrated in comparison with post-expansion players by many on the history board.

There absolutely is merit in what 70s says about Modano facing more competition from the explosion of European players. But at the same time, I do think your average star Canadian player was a bit better offensively in the 80s, since that's the game that was encouraged.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Don't mistake that for not seeing things relatively. Every era had its elite defensive forwards, in relation to the standards that existed at the time. the standards in Modano's time might have been higher, with the Sakic/Forsberg/Yzerman/Messier/Fedorov/Gilmour/Francis generation proving the value of the two-way star center like never before. But surely you must admit that Modano was much better, in relation to that standard, than Hawerchuk was in relation to his. No?

I'm not sure about that. It's possible. But Modano was not always a responsible two way player. Secondly, he had a very good defensive winger playing with him and thirdly Hawerchuk was very highly regarded during his prime years.

See, actually, I like Gretzky over Orr. Orr to me is a solid 3rd all time due to a lack of career length. I often say Orr is the best "per game" player of all-time though. My favourite stats regarding Orr revolve around his outperforming of his own teammates, so how is this influenced by a lack of competition?

Orr is probably the best combination of speed, strength, offensive wizardry and defensive instinct we may see.

Play him as much as possible with the highest scoring center of all time up to that point and against poor competition and with poor off ice counterparts and what would you expect?

I still really don't like how the adjusted +/- and r-on and r-off are becoming the new holy grail around here.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I still really don't like how the adjusted +/- and r-on and r-off are becoming the new holy grail around here.

I wouldn't say it's becoming the new holy grail but you have to admit it's one hell of a stat.
It gives exactly what a lot of people are looking for and that's comparison to their peers and gives a very good indication of team strength with and without them.

Should it be the be end all...no but it is definitely the most detailed and impactfull singular stat around.

 

[Big Phil]

As far as who would have taken his place in the scoring races, it doesn't matter if no one would have, it matters that there's europeans now taking spots of more modern players, so that makes for a more fair/valid comparison.

Also, how much weight are you going to put into those 13 straight 80 point seasons, since only people from his era could have done it, and especially when the last 6 of them he placed outside the top 20 in points?

It is just an example. Nothing written in stone but a clear example of how durable and consistent Hawerchuk was as well. Sure no one in the 1950s or even 1990s could have done this because of the low scoring era but I think it speaks volumes that no one in Hawerchuk's era did this either. It's a pretty good accomplishment.

We generally consider these players that good for a reason, you know.

Take out 80% of the europeans from the leaderboards in Modano's best years and look what happens to his scoring placements. It isn't rocket science.

That's like me saying take Gretzky and Lemeiux out in the 1980s. The NHL is still the NHL. There were more Euros in the 1990s and Canadians started to go down in numbers a bit. I honestly can't see the difference whether Hawerchuk's peers were from Sweden or Saskatoon.

This post should serve as proof that people do, subconsciously, overvalue 1980s hockey because of the gaudy totals some players put up.

I said nothing about totals whatsoever. Just look at those HHOF names I brought up. I'm not the type of person who undervalues an era (I even stick up for the 1970s when some left for the WHA). But when push comes to shove it wasn't easy to be near the top of the scoring charts in the 1980s whether Russians were in the NHL or not.

And if he got injured for 20 games in year 7 then he would have only two six-year streaks. So what? You should know by know I care little for dubious records like this.

Like I said, just an example of his durability and incredible consistency. I mean honestly, Dionne never did it. Jagr never did it. Gretzky is the only one who did. Before you start I am NOT saying Hawerchuk > Jagr, but am just trying to show an example of a guy who is vastly underrated at times. Do you know there is a book called "Lets Talk Hockey 50 Wonderful Debates" that labels Hawerchuk the most underrated player in hockey history? It isn't a stretch.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I wouldn't say it's becoming the new holy grail but you have to admit it's one hell of a stat.
It gives exactly what a lot of people are looking for and that's comparison to their peers and gives a very good indication of team strength with and without them.

Should it be the be end all...no but it is definitely the most detailed and impactfull singular stat around.

It is definitely an interesting stat but the problem is that there are a lot of things to keep in mind while looking at it:

off ice comparables
situations that a player/line are typically used in
competition that a player/line are typically used against
etc.

The crux of it is that at the end of the day +/- and tgf and tga are all unit stats not individual stats. And people tend to read a lot into this stuff and attribute way too much to individuals.

 

[Big Phil]

to shift the emphasis a bit-- and hopefully to restore a bit of civility to this thread-- i haven't gotten around to re-watching the '87 canada cup but my memory is that hawerchuk took on a defensive role against the soviets and really surprised people with defensive abilities many didn't know he had. with the recent DVD release, can anyone who has re-watched these games comment?

i'm sure modano is still by some margin the superior defensive player, but i don't think you can compare hawerchuk to, say, turgeon or savard defensively.

Indeed I will comment on it. I'll take you back to Game 3 of that series. When you look at Krutov, Larionov, Makarov, Fetisov, Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Coffey, Bourque etc those are some pretty gaudy names right? Right. But there was one guy named Hawerchuk who was named player of the game at the end of that game. Look it up, they announce it right during the post game ceremonies. I realize it is one simpel game, but it was as important of a game as has ever been played. Hawerchuk had a goal (go ahead) and an assist. Plus he was the guy on the defensive zone faceoff prior to the Lemieux goal. Not Messier. Hawerchuk. Not to mention Hawerchuk scored the all important opening goal in the semis against the Czechs. Canada was down 2-0 in that game until he scored. So this is 1987 and Hawerchuk is in the prime of his career. He was a great player at that time. I cannot honestly think of a time when Modano reached that level. Nor has anyone posted such a thing, even the supporters.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Like I said, just an example of his durability and incredible consistency. I mean honestly, Dionne never did it. Jagr never did it. Gretzky is the only one who did. Before you start I am NOT saying Hawerchuk > Jagr, but am just trying to show an example of a guy who is vastly underrated at times. Do you know there is a book called "Lets Talk Hockey 50 Wonderful Debates" that labels Hawerchuk the most underrated player in hockey history? It isn't a stretch.

Based on the drubbing I'm taking in here I don't doubt it at all.

The guy was awesome, though.

 

[Starchild74]

Anyone who says that Mike Modano is in the same company as Hawerchuk as far as a career goes is completely nuts. Simple as that

First of all Modano does get alot of credit for being a two way forward and deserves most of it. But Do not say that Hawerchuk was not good defensively. In Winnipeg he was the Jets biggest name player. When the Jets were playing the Oilers who was going against Gretzky the most? Hawerchuk was. The Winnipeg Jets never won a series without Hawerchuk. When Hawerchuk went to Buffalo he became a 2nd line center. Lafontain was the number 1 center. Hawerchuk's role in Buffalo was as a all round center. In St Louis he was a 3rd line center as well in Philadelphia and was an important part in the Flyers getting to the Finals in 1997. Hawerchuk even in juniors was good at faceoffs

Many have mentioned on here about the Canada Cup and that Hawerchuk took the faceoff in the defensive zone. Watch that goal again it is Hawerchuk who intereferes with I forget the name of the Soviet player. He actually hooks him down. He creates the open ice to give Gretzky Murphy as a decoy

Modano was good defensively but let's be honest here. The Stars in general were a very defensive team. They had 2 time Selk trophy winner Carbonneau on there team as well as Lehtinen who would win twice. At times they had players like Skrudland and Keane who were more of a defensive players. Even on defence the Stars had probably one of the best shot blockers of the era Craig Ludwig with his goal pads for shin pads. So as good as Modano was defensively he was never the best defensive player on his team and was basically just good in that reguards to his team

Offensively Modano can't touch Hawerchuk. Yes Hawerchuk was playing in the 80's but I don't remember Gary Nylund getting 130pts in a season. I don't remember Mark Hunter getting 100 points. I don't remember Nick Fotiu getting 100 pts. Oh wait they didn't but how is that I mean the 80's were so easy to get points I mean that is the only reason Hawerchuk could get over 100pts.

It doesn't matter what era a player plays in. If a player is good he is good. To try and use an argument that a top 10 in the 1990's in equal to a top 16 in the 80's is complete B.S The only people that could say this are those that never saw the 80's. Yes scoring was up but that was because there were so many premium forwards that had so much skill. Hawerchuk was one of them

Oh and for those that seem to forget. Modano did play in 90-94. That is 5 season in still decent scoring years. Some have done studies and 1992-93 was a very high scoring season compared to the 80's

In Modano's first 5 seasons in a decent scroing era he has only 2 90pt seasons. During that time from 1990-94 Hawerchuk had more points then Modano in every year except once.

Modano
1989-90 29-46-75
1990-91 28-36-64
1991-92 33-44-77
1992-93 33-60-93
1993-94 50-43-93

Hawerchuk

1989-90 26-55-81
1990-91 31-58-89
1991-92 23-75-98
1992-93 16-80-96
1993-94 35-51-86

So in these years Hawerchuk beats Modano quite a bit most years

Now Modano was a rookie or young during these years. However if you look at Modano's points standing in his first 5 years. He never got higher then 15th. While Hawerchuk had 2 top 10's

Another factor Hawerchuk at one time was considered the 2nd best center in the league. Mike Modano was never ever even thought of that.

European players that were good while Hawerchuk was in his prime. Statsny, Kurri, Lindbergh, Salming ending his career, Kent Nilsson, Hakan Loob, Mats Naslund etc... don't make it sound like there weren't any European players in the NHL. Yes there have been more in the last 20 years but that is also becasue now even European born players now dream of playing and winning a cup

Not eveyr player from the 80's who had alot of points were great but not every player in the mid 90's who got 80pts was a superstar either

I can't believe that anyone would even think that Modano is almost as good offensively as Hawerchuk and then try and say that because he is a better defensively that means he is better. Let's put it this way Hawerchuk is alot closer to Modano defensively then Modano is to Hawerchuk offensively. From the day Hawerchuk entered the league he was a star. Hawerchuk at the age of 18 had 100pts and managed to do that a total of 6 times. It was not a fluke it was not because he was playing in the 80's. He did it with the Winnipeg Jets who were not a very good team when he started.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Do you know there is a book called "Lets Talk Hockey 50 Wonderful Debates" that labels Hawerchuk the most underrated player in hockey history? It isn't a stretch.

i agree that hawerchuk has become really underrated. it seems to me there is a tendency to look at the big career stats and all the losing and lump hawerchuk in the star scoring center/not truly a franchise player in the full sense of the word camp. we put guys like denis savard, ratelle, and sittler in there, and a little farther down you get federko and turgeon. (does perreault belong in this conversation? i go back and forth, but then i didn't see him play and, based on some of what has been said in this thread, maybe i underrate him the way some have underrated hawerchuk.) my eyes tell me that hawerchuk belongs in the same breath as stastny, who most consider a step above the guys mentioned above. stastny is almost certainly the better player, but it seems odd to me that hawerchuk isn't considered a fringe top 100 player (i could be wrong about this-- i don't follow the HOH top 100 too closely.)

i don't want to go through and find the quote, but someone upthread was talking about hawerchuk and said something like, "in buffalo, he played behind an even better player in lafontaine." if he meant that statement the way i think he meant it, i couldn't disagree more. in 1992, lafontaine was the better player. but outside of a two year span, hawerchuk was always the better player. and i think hawerchuk was definitely a better player at his peak than lafontaine at his. lafontaine's prime gets romanticized a lot, and at the same time i think people forget just how great hawerchuk was in his.

Another factor Hawerchuk at one time was considered the 2nd best center in the league. Mike Modano was never ever even thought of that.

both finished second in all-star voting once, so technically, yes, modano was also once considered the 2nd best center in the league.

that's just a factual interjection to take as you will ("you" not directed at starchild74 in particular); i don't really want to get into this modano vs. hawerchuk back and forth.

 

[seventieslord]

Play him as much as possible with the highest scoring center of all time up to that point and against poor competition and with poor off ice counterparts and what would you expect?

Orr made him the highest-scoring center of all-time. He had a career high of 61 points pre-Orr, a low of 84 points with Orr, and then a high of 83 post-Orr.

That's like me saying take Gretzky and Lemeiux out in the 1980s. The NHL is still the NHL. There were more Euros in the 1990s and Canadians started to go down in numbers a bit. I honestly can't see the difference whether Hawerchuk's peers were from Sweden or Saskatoon.

It's not like saying take out Gretzky and Lemieux. That just bumps Hawerchuk up one spot in 1982, 1983, 1984, and 1985, and then up two in 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, and 90. The effect of Europeans on a ranking-based judgment of Modano is more profound than that. Just knock off 100% of Soviets and 60% of other europeans each season and see where he falls.

I said nothing about totals whatsoever. Just look at those HHOF names I brought up. I'm not the type of person who undervalues an era (I even stick up for the 1970s when some left for the WHA). But when push comes to shove it wasn't easy to be near the top of the scoring charts in the 1980s whether Russians were in the NHL or not.

it's never "easy", of course. But it's easier when the top european talent is in Europe.

Like I said, just an example of his durability and incredible consistency. I mean honestly, Dionne never did it. Jagr never did it. Gretzky is the only one who did. Before you start I am NOT saying Hawerchuk > Jagr, but am just trying to show an example of a guy who is vastly underrated at times. Do you know there is a book called "Lets Talk Hockey 50 Wonderful Debates" that labels Hawerchuk the most underrated player in hockey history? It isn't a stretch.

I'd like to see their case. Because based on his credentials, this board tends to rate Hawerchuk pretty appropriately, IMO.

If you wrote that book, you'd come out and say it... right?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Orr made him the highest-scoring center of all-time. He had a career high of 61 points pre-Orr, a low of 84 points with Orr, and then a high of 83 post-Orr.

Orr was responsible for a lot of it but you know you're exaggerating.

Espo had 84 points his first year in Boston when Orr played only 46 games and had only 31 points!

Espo's first monster season of 126 points was when Orr had 64 points.

They made each other better.

It's not like saying take out Gretzky and Lemieux. That just bumps Hawerchuk up one spot in 1982, 1983, 1984, and 1985, and then up two in 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, and 90. The effect of Europeans on a ranking-based judgment of Modano is more profound than that. Just knock off 100% of Soviets and 60% of other europeans each season and see where he falls.

Hey! Can we do the same for Hawerchuk so he gets his Art Ross when we remove Kurri too? Or did you forget there were a lot of good Europeans already playing when Hawerchuk was in his prime?

 

[seventieslord]

Anyone who says that Mike Modano is in the same company as Hawerchuk as far as a career goes is completely nuts. Simple as that

Thank you for the open-mindedness.

First of all Modano does get alot of credit for being a two way forward and deserves most of it. But Do not say that Hawerchuk was not good defensively. In Winnipeg he was the Jets biggest name player. When the Jets were playing the Oilers who was going against Gretzky the most? Hawerchuk was. The Winnipeg Jets never won a series without Hawerchuk. When Hawerchuk went to Buffalo he became a 2nd line center. Lafontain was the number 1 center. Hawerchuk's role in Buffalo was as a all round center. In St Louis he was a 3rd line center as well in Philadelphia and was an important part in the Flyers getting to the Finals in 1997. Hawerchuk even in juniors was good at faceoffs

Hawerchuk was not a 3rd line center in St. Louis. He actually scored more points as a St. Louis center that year than anyone else, despite leaving at the deadline.

Many have mentioned on here about the Canada Cup and that Hawerchuk took the faceoff in the defensive zone. Watch that goal again it is Hawerchuk who intereferes with I forget the name of the Soviet player. He actually hooks him down. He creates the open ice to give Gretzky Murphy as a decoy

I agree. Many say he should have been penalized, but he wasn't, so good for him. that is one play though.

Modano was good defensively but let's be honest here. The Stars in general were a very defensive team. They had 2 time Selk trophy winner Carbonneau on there team as well as Lehtinen who would win twice. At times they had players like Skrudland and Keane who were more of a defensive players. Even on defence the Stars had probably one of the best shot blockers of the era Craig Ludwig with his goal pads for shin pads. So as good as Modano was defensively he was never the best defensive player on his team and was basically just good in that reguards to his team

Modano was the one going up against the other team's best. Not Carbonneau. And we know for sure Lehtinen made an impact on Modano's goals against. But that should be obvious; he was the best defensive forward in the league; even better than Modano. Judging the best defensive forwards is subjective business and things like goals against rarely come into play. Modano was 3rd, 4th, 6th, and 6th in voting during his prime. (rightfully behind Lehtinen three of those times)

I get your point, there's no doubt Lehtinen had an impact, but other players didn't get votes just for being on Carbonneau's line, or Francis' line, or Rick Meagher's line. So give Modano the credit he deserves there.

Offensively Modano can't touch Hawerchuk. Yes Hawerchuk was playing in the 80's but I don't remember Gary Nylund getting 130pts in a season. I don't remember Mark Hunter getting 100 points. I don't remember Nick Fotiu getting 100 pts. Oh wait they didn't but how is that I mean the 80's were so easy to get points I mean that is the only reason Hawerchuk could get over 100pts.

Of course it's not easy.

But I don't see you making any actual points here.

It doesn't matter what era a player plays in. If a player is good he is good. To try and use an argument that a top 10 in the 1990's in equal to a top 16 in the 80's is complete B.S The only people that could say this are those that never saw the 80's. Yes scoring was up but that was because there were so many premium forwards that had so much skill. Hawerchuk was one of them

that's subjective tripe. There's nothing to actually support that. The league got better, not worse, after 1990 when the league expanded and imported a lot of Europeans. There were fewer bad players to exploit and less opportunity to put up massive point totals. Face it! The only reason some value the 80s so much is because some players had gaudy point totals.

Oh and for those that seem to forget. Modano did play in 90-94. That is 5 season in still decent scoring years. Some have done studies and 1992-93 was a very high scoring season compared to the 80's

In Modano's first 5 seasons in a decent scroing era he has only 2 90pt seasons. During that time from 1990-94 Hawerchuk had more points then Modano in every year except once.

Modano
1989-90 29-46-75
1990-91 28-36-64
1991-92 33-44-77
1992-93 33-60-93
1993-94 50-43-93

Hawerchuk

1989-90 26-55-81
1990-91 31-58-89
1991-92 23-75-98
1992-93 16-80-96
1993-94 35-51-86

So in these years Hawerchuk beats Modano quite a bit most years

Now Modano was a rookie or young during these years. However if you look at Modano's points standing in his first 5 years. He never got higher then 15th. While Hawerchuk had 2 top 10's

OK, I get it. Modano at 19-23 was not as good as Hawerchuk at 26-30. You win!

Another factor Hawerchuk at one time was considered the 2nd best center in the league. Mike Modano was never ever even thought of that.

Yep, actually he was.

Here is the list of all-star voting placements each player received, in which they got at least three separate votes:

Hawerchuk: 2nd, 3rd, 6th
Modano: 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 5th, 8th.

European players that were good while Hawerchuk was in his prime. Statsny, Kurri, Lindbergh, Salming ending his career, Kent Nilsson, Hakan Loob, Mats Naslund etc... don't make it sound like there weren't any European players in the NHL. Yes there have been more in the last 20 years but that is also becasue now even European born players now dream of playing and winning a cup

I never said there weren't any.

Let's put it this way Hawerchuk is alot closer to Modano defensively then Modano is to Hawerchuk offensively.

That's completely unsubstantiated.

I've shown in many different ways that the offensive results both players achieved were very similar. Hawerchuk has a small edge there, at best. Hawerchuk never received a single Selke vote. Modano was top-6 in voting four times. You mean to tell me they're closer defensively than offensively? Do you have a straight face right now?

 

[seventieslord]

Orr was responsible for a lot of it but you know you're exaggerating.

Espo had 84 points his first year in Boston when Orr played only 46 games and had only 31 points!

Espo's first monster season of 126 points when Orr had 64 points.

They made each other better.

Orr was 19. Should that year be considered indicative of his best performance? I know he won the norris, but still. That was the 2nd-worst full season of his career.

Hey! Can we do the same for Hawerchuk so he gets his Art Ross when we remove Kurri too? Or did you forget there were a lot of good Europeans already playing when Hawerchuk was in his prime?

No, of course I didn't. That's why I said "60% of other Europeans"......

 

[BraveCanadian]

I've shown in many different ways that the offensive results both players achieved were very similar. Hawerchuk has a small edge there, at best. Hawerchuk never received a single Selke vote. Modano was top-6 in voting four times. You mean to tell me they're closer defensively than offensively? Do you have a straight face right now?

You also know better though.

In the 80's, offensive players who were responsible defensively didn't get many Selke votes or awards for the most part. No one scoring like a Hawerchuk won the Selke until Gilmour.