Confirmed with Link: Michael McLeod re-signs - 1 year, 1.4 mil. AAV

[Rhodes 81]

One of McLeod and Bastian's best attributes is that they want to play here and they are willing to play on the 4th line.

This is a pretty big one for me. I don't think all that highly of them as players, but they're good enough for 4th liners if our top 9 is as stacked as it appears to be right now. Both of them basically just watched the organization say "we'd rather lose you than pay you what you might be worth" and chose to come back anyway. There are worse options for the 4th line than guys that have a couple of plus attributes and are willing to sign cheap contracts.

 

[devilsblood]

The CBGB line was great.

McLeod-Bastian-Wood wasn't.

In fact, even without Wood, they're still just as PEDESTRIAN as they were with him.

People like to point to McLeod's performance in the playoffs and choose to forget that his main contribution since Day one has always been his ability to win Faceoffs.

They also forget that McLeod doesn't score all that much which the CBGB line did with abundance (at least in comparison with the 4th line we've seen lately) back in the day.


My point here is that while I'm not against the Devils re-signing him, I have not been overly impressed with McLeod (has zero to do with anything non-hockey related) ever since he put on the Devils jersey and feel we can do much better than him.

Those guys posted 10 goals in 24 playoff games in 12-13.

The 4th line posted 5 in 12 this past season.

Exact same pace. (Edit: Better actually as Lazar notched one as well)

During this past regular season, and certainly the season before our 4th line was hampered by injuries. All told they played about 45 games together the last 2 seasons. Even still they combined for 20 goals this season. In 13-14 the CBGB line posted 14 goals. They did post 18 in the shorted 12-13 season. And goals were tougher to come by during those years. But it's not like that line racked up goals, while this line did not.

Bottom line imo is, if you had a healthy full speed Wood, that 4th line would be one of, if not the best 4th line's in hockey. The problem was Wood was not able to stay healthy.

We are certainly losing a dynamic element in Wood, or at least the potential of that element, but I am interested to see how that line works with a more polished, albeit significantly slower, player like Foote in that spot. I actually think it opens up an oppurtunity for McLeod to carry the puck more, use his speed more, and use his passing ability more. Think McLeod-Foote could be a productive combo.

 

[Triumph]

Anyone saying 'CBGB was great' is remembering 1 playoff run and forgetting 2 seasons. That line just did not score goals. I mean, almost no one on those teams did, but they didn't either. They were fine.

 

[glenwo2]

Those guys posted 10 goals in 24 playoff games in 12-13.

The 4th line posted 5 in 12 this past season.

Exact same pace.

During this past regular season, and certainly the season before our 4th line was hampered by injuries. All told they played about 45 games together the last 2 seasons. Even still they combined for 20 goals this season. In 13-14 the CBGB line posted 14 goals. They did post 18 in the shorted 12-13 season. And goals were tougher to come by during those years. But it's not like that line racked up goals, while this line did not.

Bottom line imo is, if you had a healthy full speed Wood, that 4th line would be one of, if not the best 4th line's in hockey. The problem was Wood was not able to stay healthy.

We are certainly losing a dynamic element in Wood, or at least the potential of that element, but I am interested to see how that line works with a more polished, albeit significantly slower, player like Foote in that spot. I actually think it opens up an oppurtunity for McLeod to carry the puck more, use his speed more, and use his passing ability more. Think McLeod-Foote could be a productive combo.

McLeod's playmaking abilities leave much to be desired.

Though to be fair, he hasn't exactly had any actual finishers on his line either.

Wood was fast but he was no sniper and Bastian was better down low at the doorstep for tips and cleaning up.

Can Foote be that finisher? One can only hope.

 

[devilsblood]

McLeod's playmaking abilities leave much to be desired.

Though to be fair, he hasn't exactly had any actual finishers on his line either.

Wood was fast but he was no sniper and Bastian was better down low at the doorstep for tips and cleaning up.

Can Foote be that finisher? One can only hope.

Nope. Your post is another example of how underrated that part of his game is.

22 reg season assists. 4 more in the playoffs. His assist rate 5v5 is right at the top of the team leader board for both.

And yeah, I am interested to see how he and Foote perform together. Super small sample, but last year Foot played 43 minutes 5v5. Half of that with McLeod, he scored one goal, that goal came playing on McLeod's wing, I'm pretty sure McLeod assisted on that, was 2-0 on ice goals for with McLeod(0-0 without) and had excellent shot for/against numbers with McLeod, as opposed to say Haula with whom his #'s were bad, granted an even smaller sample, and probably against stiffer comp.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Anyone saying 'CBGB was great' is remembering 1 playoff run and forgetting 2 seasons. That line just did not score goals. I mean, almost no one on those teams did, but they didn't either. They were fine.

They never tried to, if you go back and watch they had a very specific system they played and played it extremely well. The puck spent so much time getting passed from corner to corner and battling each time, rarely ever passed to the point as to not lose control and rarely took it to the net.

If they were successful in keeping the battle down low long enough, which happened often, one by one they would peel off to change out for the 1st line who would then transition into an actual scoring ready type control over the offensive zone but against a beat and battered defensive line that was now stuck out there.

People hate to hear it, but they weren't there to score, they were there to make all the skilled guys lives easier and they did that really well, and then also scored goals in the playoffs.

 

[glenwo2]

Nope. Your post is another example of how underrated that part of his game is.

22 reg season assists. 4 more in the playoffs. His assist rate 5v5 is right at the top of the team leader board for both.

And yeah, I am interested to see how he and Foote perform together. Super small sample, but last year Foot played 43 minutes 5v5. Half of that with McLeod, he scored one goal, that goal came playing on McLeod's wing, I'm pretty sure McLeod assisted on that, was 2-0 on ice goals for with McLeod(0-0 without) and had excellent shot for/against numbers with McLeod, as opposed to say Haula with whom his #'s were bad, granted an even smaller sample, and probably against stiffer comp.

Nah. My post is another example of how unimpressed I am by him.

And I did point out after you bolded my first sentence (and seemingly ignored the rest, purposely or not purposely..I don't know) that McLeod lacked the finishers needed to contribute more than he has.

If Nolan can put the puck in the net consistently, McLeod is going to rack up a ton of assists, thus making the 4th line even more potent than just a line designed to "give the big boys a breather".

 

[devilsblood]

Anyone saying 'CBGB was great' is remembering 1 playoff run and forgetting 2 seasons. That line just did not score goals. I mean, almost no one on those teams did, but they didn't either. They were fine.

18 g's in the following short season was good.

Bernier tied for 5th on that team in goals, Carter 8th, Gio 9th. These rankings probably speak more to lack of production from the rest of the lineup, but still, that line was on pace for about 30 goals, which is good for a 4th line, especially then.

The next year they combined for 14. Which was the final season of that line.

Nah. My post is another example of how unimpressed I am by him.

And I did point out after you bolded my first sentence (and seemingly ignored the rest, purposely or not purposely..I don't know) that McLeod lacked the finishers needed to contribute more than he has.

If Nolan can put the puck in the net consistently, McLeod is going to rack up a ton of assists, thus making the 4th line even more potent than just a line designed to "give the big boys a breather".

So it seems you agree with me that McLeod is a good 4th line playmaker, you just don't want to admit it.

 

[glenwo2]

So it seems you agree with me that McLeod is a good 4th line playmaker, you just don't want to admit it.

I will admit he's.....*strains to say with a ton of difficulty*....he's...good for what he does.

whew!

 

[My3Sons]

I will admit he's.....*strains to say with a ton of difficulty*....he's...good for what he does.

whew!

He is obviously a flawed player or he'd be better than a fourth line guy. Something is off (beyond just his shooting and finishing) that he cannot consistently play third line minutes or matchups. That aside, he did look to me to improve his passing last season. Until the Hockey Canada thing is released we don't know what his future holds. I don't know what the holdup is with that at this point.

 

[Triumph]

They never tried to, if you go back and watch they had a very specific system they played and played it extremely well. The puck spent so much time getting passed from corner to corner and battling each time, rarely ever passed to the point as to not lose control and rarely took it to the net.

If they were successful in keeping the battle down low long enough, which happened often, one by one they would peel off to change out for the 1st line who would then transition into an actual scoring ready type control over the offensive zone but against a beat and battered defensive line that was now stuck out there.

People hate to hear it, but they weren't there to score, they were there to make all the skilled guys lives easier and they did that really well, and then also scored goals in the playoffs.

Yeah, they were primarily a defensive line, but there still has to be more offense. I don't think this account - forechecking until another line could get on the ice - is reflective of how they actually played. Sure, sometimes that happened, but there were still shots on goal both ways when they were out there, just fewer than normal. It's not even really possible to change on the fly while holding the offensive zone except in the 2nd period.

They did their jobs, they are just much more fondly remembered than they otherwise would be if not for the goal scoring in 2012.

 

[NJDevs26]

He could and should have gotten a lot more.

There is nobody even close to his salary with similar faceoff skills. Hopefully he will reveal later what he though of this contract. It's not unusual that older players agree to play close to league minimum, but this is unusual with younger players. I don't think this is a case where the players bets on himself either, since he really could have gotten a better deal elsewhere with possibly a bigger role.

That only gets you so far though...there aren't as many one-dimensional faceoff-only guys as there used to be in the league. McLeod had six goals all season but people think he's more valuable than he was because one of them came in the biggest spot and because he's 5%-10% better at faceoffs than the average fourth-liner.

People look at high 50% or low 60% faceoffs as so critical because look at how many faceoffs there are total in a season, but really if you had a league-average 4C out there it's only gonna be like 10% below that. So how much is winning an extra one out of every ten faceoffs worth when not all of them are even in critical situations (especially on this team where Nico and maybe Haula will be taking a lot more critical draws) and fewer actually play into creating offense on the fourth line? Why would you put McLeod out there against Bergeron except in specific situations when Bergeron would be more likely to smoke him after the draw than Nico or Haula?

 

[TrufleShufle]

Yeah, they were primarily a defensive line, but there still has to be more offense. I don't think this account - forechecking until another line could get on the ice - is reflective of how they actually played. Sure, sometimes that happened, but there were still shots on goal both ways when they were out there, just fewer than normal. It's not even really possible to change on the fly while holding the offensive zone except in the 2nd period.

They did their jobs, they are just much more fondly remembered than they otherwise would be if not for the goal scoring in 2012.

Yea it happened and a lot, are there times is didn't happen? Absolutely, a lot of them actually. But that was their goal, there are lines on the team that their primary purpose is to actually score goals while sometimes going games with out doing so, but they can still be considered very good scoring lines.

Same can be said about CBGB and with XXXXX-Mcleod-Bastian, they execute their objective often enough to be happy with the way they play. Every line gets pinned in at some point, but when you aren't scoring goals and then get pinned in, it gets amplified by the fans watching.

It's been brought up a few times now but the biggest thing outside of them doing their job well is knowing and buying into their roles. CBGB did that, it showed on the ice and I remember interviews after with a couple of them that said as much. Mcleod and Bastian seem to be on the same page and it's a great asset to have.

I'm actually just remembering a point a year or two ago where Wood was tried up the lineup for quite a while, whether due to injuries or his own making, but he was top 6 for a decent stretch. He lost that position in whatever way and his first game back with Mcleod and Bastian he scored and I remember commenting on it at the time about the look on his face. He literally had an "ahhhhh shit, now I'm going to be stuck here look."

Wood never bought into it IMO. He had all the tools to be perfect for the role but don't believe he ever saw himself as that and was always pissy about not playing up higher. Again absolutely my opinion, but I really believe it.

 

[TrufleShufle]

That only gets you so far though...there aren't as many one-dimensional faceoff-only guys as there used to be in the league. McLeod had six goals all season but people think he's more valuable than he was because one of them came in the biggest spot and because he's 5%-10% better at faceoffs than the average fourth-liner.

People look at high 50% or low 60% faceoffs as so critical because look at how many faceoffs there are but really if you had a league-average 4C out there it's like 10% below that. So how much is winning an extra one out of every ten faceoffs worth when not all of them are in critical situations (especially on this team where Nico and maybe Haula will be taking a lot more critical draws)?

People always do this with faceoffs to dismiss them, but nothing else, the slight difference in corsi, save percentage, shooting percentage, shots, hell, actual goals etc etc. Most of the time its not drastic, but you want to have a more favorable % in as many metrics as possible. When you have one and its not at the expense of anything else, that's a good thing.

 

[NJDevs26]

And btw McLeod wasn't 'forced' to sign this deal, he was minutes INTO free agency after being nontendered when he signed the deal. If he wanted (and could get) a shit ton more money elsewhere he would have left, or at least waited a few hours/days longer to see what offers came. Tatar doesn't have a deal yet and he's an analytics darling with a lot more in terms of tangible stats.

 

[Triumph]

18 g's in the following short season was good.

Bernier tied for 5th on that team in goals, Carter 8th, Gio 9th. These rankings probably speak more to lack of production from the rest of the lineup, but still, that line was on pace for about 30 goals, which is good for a 4th line, especially then.

The next year they combined for 14. Which was the final season of that line.

They were not a 4th line that year. The 4th line was often a mishmash of stuff, it started off being like Matteau-Josefson-nothing and a 7th D being dressed; sometimes Butler played. Then they got Kostopoulous. Krys Barch played almost half the games.

I think when Loktionov arrived they started getting more 4th line duty but Gionta averaged 14 minutes a game the first 2 months of the season.

 

[devilsblood]

He is obviously a flawed player or he'd be better than a fourth line guy. Something is off (beyond just his shooting and finishing) that he cannot consistently play third line minutes or matchups. That aside, he did look to me to improve his passing last season. Until the Hockey Canada thing is released we don't know what his future holds. I don't know what the holdup is with that at this point.

His game probably suffers, much like with Wood, from fourthlineitus. They just play all out, skating hard and crashing into everything. It helps lead to rushes, and good scoring chances relative to other 4th liners, but it's not conducive to controlling play. I think Wood will be a drag possession wise in that regard, and I think McLeod fed off Wood's chaos.

Which again makes me interested to see how the dynamic changes with a drastically different player in Foote.

 

[devilsblood]

They were not a 4th line that year. The 4th line was often a mishmash of stuff, it started off being like Matteau-Josefson-nothing and a 7th D being dressed; sometimes Butler played. Then they got Kostopoulous. Krys Barch played almost half the games.

I think when Loktionov arrived they started getting more 4th line duty but Gionta averaged 14 minutes a game the first 2 months of the season.

If you are talking pure minutes played, sure, but in terms of style of play, they were still the 4th line.

This is a point you've been making recently. Boq averaged 5 seconds more a game this year then McLeod did. But Boq was a 3rd liner while Mcleod was a 4th liner, the distinction being style of play.

 

[NJDevs26]

People always do this with faceoffs to dismiss them, but nothing else, the slight difference in corsi, save percentage, shooting percentage, shots, hell, actual goals etc etc. Most of the time its not drastic, but you want to have a more favorable % in as many metrics as possible. When you have one and its not at the expense of anything else, that's a good thing.

That's just it though...he's below average everywhere else so the incremental 'intangible' numbers winning an extra faceoff creates do come at the expense of something. You don't use someone for faceoffs, then wheel him right off when it's not a regular fourth-line shift if he's an asset in other areas.

 

[Guttersniped]

CBGB made such a huge impression because it came together immediately in the 2012 playoffs, but Gionta only played 1 regular season game in NJ that year and it wasn’t on that line.

CBGB continued into most of the shortened 2012-13 season but that was Ryan Carter’s last season on the team. Nope I memory holed a whole another year of low event hockey! Whoops.

It was really more lucky in the 2012 playoffs and understandably did better the next year. And with 2013-14, well a 3.94% SH% will make make things tough results wise.

CBGB line:
23 GP 134:55 Even Strength minutes in 2012 Playoffs. 5:52 TOI/GP
GF 6 GA 3
39.13 CF/60 55.58 CA/60 41.31 CF%
29.35 FF/60 44.91 FA/60 39.52 FF%
19.57 SF/60 33.35 SA/60 36.97 SF%
2.67 GF/60 1.33 GA/60 66.67 GF%
1.8 xGF/60 2.47 xGA/60 42.10 xGF%
15.12 SCF/60 26.24 SCA/60 36.56 SCF%
8.89 HDCF/60 12.9 HDCA/60 40.82 HDCF%
13.64 On-Ice SH% 96.00 On-Ice SV%

43 GP 255:01 Even Strength minutes together in 2012-13 regular season. 5:55 TOI/GP
9 GF & 9 GA
38.35 CF/60 37.88 CA/60 50.31 CF%
30.82 FF/60 30.12 FA/60 50.58 FF%
21.65 SF/60 21.65 SA/60 50.00 SF%
2.12 GF/60 2.12 GA/60 50.00 GF%
1.89 xGF/60 1.65 xGA/60 53.36 xGF%
18.35 SCF/60 17.18 SCA/60 51.66 SCF%
8.47 HDCF/60 7.29 HDCA/60 53.73 HDCF%
9.78 On-Ice SH% 90.22 On-Ice SV%

51 GP 336:01 Even Strength minutes together in 2013-14 regular season. 6:35 TOI/GP
5 GF & 7 GA
40.17 CF/60 37.32 CA/60 51.84 CF%
30.35 FF/60 28.57 FA/60 51.52 FF%
22.68 SF/60 21.07 SA/60 51.84 SF%
0.89 GF/60 1.25 GA/60 41.67 GF%
1.85 xGF/60 1.49 xGA/60 55.27 xGF%
22.32 SCF/60 15.71 SCA/60 58.69 SCF%
8.93 HDCF/60 6.43 HDCA/60 58.14 HDCF%
3.94 On-Ice SH% 94.07 On-Ice SV%

One important note is Gionta wasn’t good at FO so this line wasn’t taking endless Defensive zone face offs like McLeod did. (Even Strength)
2012 PO Defensive Zone FO (16) 7.11%
2012-13 Defensive Zone FO (45) 10.59%

Overall Gionta took (Even Strength)
2012 PO 24 GP Def. Zone FO (29) 8.27%
2012-13 48 GP Def. Zone FO (113) 12.61%
2013-14 66 GP Def. Zone FO (203) 17.5%
Vs
McLeod (Even Strength)
2023 PO 12 GP Def. Zone FO (73) 27.22%
2022-23 80 GP Def. Zone FO (416)21.48%

 

[NJDevs26]

Yeah mini-Gio was definitely the third wheel on that line, Carter and Bernier (when he was on his game) were above-average fourth-liners though.

 

[devilsblood]

CBGB made such a huge impression because it came together immediately in the 2012 playoffs, but Gionta only played 1 regular season game in NJ that year and it wasn’t on that line.

CBGB continued into most of the shortened 2012-13 season but that was Ryan Carter’s last season on the team.

It was really more lucky in the 2012 playoffs and understandably did better the next year.

CBGB line:
23 GP 134:55 Even Strength minutes in 2012 Playoffs. 5:52 TOI/GP
GF 6 GA 3
39.13 CF/60 55.58 CA/60 41.31 CF%
29.35 FF/60 44.91 FA/60 39.52 FF%
19.57 SF/60 33.35 SA/60 36.97 SF%
2.67 GF/60 1.33 GA/60 66.67 GF%
1.8 xGF/60 2.47 xGA/60 42.10 xGF%
15.12 SCF/60 26.24 SCA/60 36.56 SCF%
8.89 HDCF/60 12.9 HDCA/60 40.82 HDCF%
13.64 On-Ice SH% 96.00 On-Ice SV%

43 GP 255:01 Even Strength minutes together in 2012-13 regular season. 5:55 TOI/GP
9 GF & 9 GA
38.35 CF/60 37.88 CA/60 50.31 CF%
30.82 FF/60 30.12 FA/60 50.58 FF%
21.65 SF/60 21.65 SA/60 50.00 SF%
2.12 GF/60 2.12 GA/60 50.00 GF%
1.89 xGF/60 1.65 xGA/60 53.36 xGF%
18.35 SCF/60 17.18 SCA/60 51.66 SCF%
8.47 HDCF/60 7.29 HDCA/60 53.73 HDCF%
9.78 On-Ice SH% 90.22 On-Ice SV%

One important note is Gionta wasn’t good at FO so this line wasn’t taking endless Defensive zone face offs like McLeod did. (Even Strength)
2012 PO Defensive Zone FO (16) 7.11%
2012-13 Defensive Zone FO (45) 10.59%

Overall Gionta took (Even Strength)
2012 PO 24 GP Defensive Zone FO (29) 8.27%
2012-13 48 GP Defensive Zone FO (113) 12.61%
Vs
McLeod (Even Strength)
2023 PO 12 GP Defensive Zone FO (73) 27.22%
2022-23 80 GP Defense Zone FO (416) 21.48%

Wrong.

And Gio was always on the CBGB line. The idea that the line existed before he got there is nonsensical.

Good point though on McLeod taking so many defensive faceoffs. People point to below team average possession metrics, but taking so many defensive faceoffs absolutely plays into it.

 

[TrufleShufle]

That's just it though...he's below average everywhere else so the incremental 'intangible' numbers winning an extra faceoff creates do come at the expense of something. You don't use someone for faceoffs, then wheel him right off when it's not a regular fourth-line shift if he's an asset in other areas.

He's not below average for a 4th liner, his skating and compete level rivals any 4th liners in the league and beats most of them, along with PKing and playing defensively when needed. Him being so good at faceoffs is the reason he is out there and Jack Hughes being so good in OT is the reason he gets off the ice right after.

If a dishwasher in a restaurant is amazing at one dish, so much so that the Chef has him jump over whenever that dish is ordered, that says nothing about his dishwashing, more about the Chef.

 

[Guttersniped]

Yeah, they were primarily a defensive line, but there still has to be more offense. I don't think this account - forechecking until another line could get on the ice - is reflective of how they actually played. Sure, sometimes that happened, but there were still shots on goal both ways when they were out there, just fewer than normal. It's not even really possible to change on the fly while holding the offensive zone except in the 2nd period.

They did their jobs, they are just much more fondly remembered than they otherwise would be if not for the goal scoring in 2012.

Yes, and a lot less people would have liked Madden if he didn’t score 20 goals one year.

I’m not comparing the two, Madden was a 3rd line center, but defensive forwards aren’t appreciated for their defense by most fans. Pandolfo* took a ton of shit.

So yeah, they are fondly remembered for the timely goals in the 2012 Playoffs. That happens in sports.

And I don’t know if there has to be more offense, they weren’t the problem in 2012-13.

Gionta shouldn’t have been on the team still in 2015-16 but the org. wasn’t exactly teeming with teeming with talent at the time.

*Also my spellcheck has been drinking again lol.

 

[Triumph]

If you are talking pure minutes played, sure, but in terms of style of play, they were still the 4th line.

This is a point you've been making recently. Boq averaged 5 seconds more a game this year then McLeod did. But Boq was a 3rd liner while Mcleod was a 4th liner, the distinction being style of play.

It matters when you are talking in terms of scoring rates. If the line you are giving 3rd line minutes to is scoring at a 4th line rate, that's not good!