News Article: McKenzie: Insight on Sabres’ coaching search, Eichel’s ‘TBD’ future

[explore]

If this team wants to move forward, they need to move Eichel out. The experiment is over. As long as he is on the team, you can get any coach or other players you want, the same crummy culture will be there.

Oh, look it's another "culture" trade proponent.

Worked great when the Sabres traded a "loser" like ROR out to change the "culture," why not repeat it again with Eichel?

Culture comes from winning, winning doesn't come from culture.

LA won their cups with a bunch of "culture" castoffs from Philly in Jeff Carter and Mike Richards--and Richards was addicted to opiates

Chicago won their cups with Patty Kane, beater of cab drivers and general alcoholic, leading the way.

 

[DJN21]

If this team wants to move forward, they need to move Eichel out. The experiment is over. As long as he is on the team, you can get any coach or other players you want, the same crummy culture will be there.

I am never gonna whole heartedly concede that we should trade Eichel. Is there points to be made for doing it (or him forcing it) sure. But you simply cannot save face as a franchise and justify trading a player of his caliber. I like to have fantasy dreams of adding several players from other teams that I envy but at the end of the day you don't trade Eichel.

I'll double down and say if we have to trade Eichel at that point I'd just trade Dahlin too and have the best farm system in hockey history and forget scorched earth...i'm dropping a Nuc' on it.

 

[Jim Bob]

Did both of you miss the point that it was my “going in ask” as the start for negotiations?

The problem with a going in ask like that is that it likely gets you hung up on and there is no path forward for a real negotiation.

It's like making an offer of $25 for a $200 pair of sneakers on eBay. That offer gets flat out rejected without a counteroffer as it comes off as the type of offer that doesn't want a real negotiation like say an offer of $150 might.

 

[Jim Bob]

Whatever. Save your ad hominem response. The speculated cost has been:

3 NHLer, 2 prospects, 1 1st
4 1st, 4 a/b prospects

I'm in the ballpark of what Adams should ask for.

Who said that the Sabres ask was 6 or 8 pieces?

That is crazy talk.

 

[Jim Bob]

Then they don’t get him. You don’t trade a 24 year old superstar many times so it better be a grand slam when you do. Not a double because, aw shucks I don’t know if other teams would be comfortable moving top pieces. Be aggressive, be a prick and get the deal you want. This is a moment that I wish Darcy was GM for a move like this. He was ruthless with his trade returns.

I won't be surprised if this offseason is the time the Sabres get the best offers for Eichel.

If they hold onto him through next season, the offers will get worse with the next big bonus payment at the NMC looming on the first day of the 2022-23 league year (7/1/2022 if all stays normal).

 

[Der Jaeger]

The problem with a going in ask like that is that it likely gets you hung up on and there is no path forward for a real negotiation.

It's like making an offer of $25 for a $200 pair of sneakers on eBay. That offer gets flat out rejected without a counteroffer as it comes off as the type of offer that doesn't want a real negotiation like say an offer of $150 might.

That's a dumb analogy. Rob Blake isn't hanging up on Adams for a big ask on Jack Eichel. Maybe if it was a middling player. But Eichel is a top 5 center in the league. Blake says no and the conversation continues.

Who said that the Sabres ask was 6 or 8 pieces?

That is crazy talk.

Multiple reports out in the media, admittedly all speculation. Same category as the Rangers Strome, Schneider, and a 1st type of proposals. I went middle of the two.

 

[BloFan4Life]

Oh, look it's another "culture" trade proponent.

Worked great when the Sabres traded a "loser" like ROR out to change the "culture," why not repeat it again with Eichel?

Culture comes from winning, winning doesn't come from culture.

LA won their cups with a bunch of "culture" castoffs from Philly in Jeff Carter and Mike Richards--and Richards was addicted to opiates

Chicago won their cups with Patty Kane, beater of cab drivers and general alcoholic, leading the way.

You know the real reason why they traded out ROR, correct? If you did, it wouldn't go with your narrative about not trading Eichel.

The Sabres have turned over the roster, got rids of GMs, got rid of coaches, brought in talent. Please tell me how you get the winning to get the culture. There is one common theme that continues to stick around no matter what you do to this team.

Carter and Richards weren't the leader in LA. Kane wasn't the leader in Chicago.

 

[Strexvale]

You know the real reason why they traded out ROR, correct? If you did, it wouldn't go with your narrative about not trading Eichel.

The Sabres have turned over the roster, got rids of GMs, got rid of coaches, brought in talent. Please tell me how you get the winning to get the culture. There is one common theme that continues to stick around no matter what you do to this team.

Carter and Richards weren't the leader in LA. Kane wasn't the leader in Chicago.

The reason the Sabres suck is almost entirely poor drafting for the last 10+ years and hiring crappy coaches who implement systems that don't complement the players. Also handing out big money contracts to players who don't deserve it. The players who produce ain't the problem in any way shape or form. Eichel, along with Reinhart are probably two of the only players who are NOT a problem on this team. Actually build around them, put complementary players around Eichel, hire a coach who gives a damn if they go offside in practice, and they'll win games. Keep getting crap like Krueger and Housley with GM's who wait WAY too long to make moves and force players into roles they're not ready for, and they'll continue to lose.

If you give up Eichel for anything less than a King's ransom, you'll regret it.

 

[Bones Malone]

NHL Rumors: Sabres ask for Jack Eichel is astronomical, Eric Staal trade value, and Maple Leafs called on Jonathan Quick - The Daily Goal Horn

"“They are not sure if they are going to trade him or not,” Lavoie began. “If they trade him they want four pieces that are first round picks. Or players that are playing if not in the NHL or elsewhere like the NCAA – that were first round picks and are having success and not struggling.”"

If this is the report about 8 pieces that some of you are discussing, I think you've read it wrong.

 

[explore]

You know the real reason why they traded out ROR, correct? If you did, it wouldn't go with your narrative about not trading Eichel.

The Sabres have turned over the roster, got rids of GMs, got rid of coaches, brought in talent. Please tell me how you get the winning to get the culture. There is one common theme that continues to stick around no matter what you do to this team.

Carter and Richards weren't the leader in LA. Kane wasn't the leader in Chicago.

What is this nonsense? If there was a reason for trading ROR beyond the obvious (Botterill changing the makeup of the team from Murray by getting rid of Kane, Lehner, ROR; and the Pegulas pushing Botterill to trade ROR before his signing bonus was due) then state it, don't hint at secretive motives without disclosing it, it makes you look like an even bigger fool.

You get a winning culture by surrounding the talent you have (franchise center, franchise defenseman, first-line RW, powerplay specialist forward, top-4 defenseman, promising second-line center prospect, promising young forward/center) with the key missing pieces, i.e. a proper #1 goaltender and a successful NHL head coach

What you don't do is repeat the same mistake you've already made and expect not only a different result, but expect things to magically fix themselves afterwards.

Carter and Richards were absolutely part of the leadership group in LA, and so was Kane. Just because they didn't wear a letter doesn't mean they didn't have influence in the locker room

 

[Jim Bob]

That's a dumb analogy. Rob Blake isn't hanging up on Adams for a big ask on Jack Eichel. Maybe if it was a middling player. But Eichel is a top 5 center in the league. Blake says no and the conversation continues.

I have feeling an ask that big gets the old, "Call back when you have a realistic ask." response from Blake.

Kind of like the response that Regier got when Colorado called on Jay McKee and he asked for Sakic.

Multiple reports out in the media, admittedly all speculation. Same category as the Rangers Strome, Schneider, and a 1st type of proposals. I went middle of the two.

3 pieces is a long way away from 6 or 8 pieces.

I haven't seen one media report that said the Sabres were looking for 6 to 8 pieces in an Eichel trade.

The 4 pieces that are 1st or good looking players that are former 1sts is the only framework for a deal that I have seen.

 

[Jim Bob]

What is this nonsense? If there was a reason for trading ROR beyond the obvious (Botterill changing the makeup of the team from Murray by getting rid of Kane, Lehner, ROR; and the Pegulas pushing Botterill to trade ROR before his signing bonus was due) then state it, don't hint at secretive motives without disclosing it, it makes you look like an even bigger fool.

The Pegulas were PO'd about the locker clean out quote and didn't want to make the big bonus payment.

 

[explore]

The Pegulas were PO'd about the locker clean out quote and didn't want to make the big bonus payment.

I literally wrote that the Pegula's wanted ROR traded before his bonus was due, it's in the text you quoted. That's not new information, everyone knows about it, but what's more important is that Botterill was trying to trade ROR long before his locker room statement

That locker room cancer/loser has now not only won the cup, Conn Smythe, and Selke, but he's also the captain of the Blues. Every person who advocated for trading ROR off the team should pipe down about how to improve the Sabres because their ideas are objectively hogwash

People who think trading a 24-year-old Eichel is the way to get the Sabres back into the playoffs are fools, and their ideas should not be taken seriously

 

[brian_griffin]

Gretzky ( plus Krushelnyski and McSorely ) only got 2 players + 3 1sts + cash. How is Eichel going to get FIVE players and a pick?

I love the imagination around here.

Agreed. The Gretzky trade isn't a benchmark, and it wasn't just because it was over 30 years ago. It was because Gretzky had just married pregnant long-time girlfriend / actress Janet Jones and he wanted to move to LA so they could both be there together and raise the family. Pocklington did it as a favor to Gretzky, and didn't have a ton of leverage. It was a yes or no (from both #99 and PP), and not so much about the return.

If this team wants to move forward, they need to move Eichel out. The experiment is over. As long as he is on the team, you can get any coach or other players you want, the same crummy culture will be there.

or maybe not.

LA won their cups with a bunch of "culture" castoffs from Philly in Jeff Carter and Mike Richards--and Richards was addicted to opiates

Chicago won their cups with Patty Kane, beater of cab drivers and general alcoholic, leading the way.

<Raises hand>
...and that is why we like them!!

 

[Jim Bob]

I literally wrote that the Pegula's wanted ROR traded before his bonus was due, it's in the text you quoted. That's not new information, everyone knows about it, but what's more important is that Botterill was trying to trade ROR long before his locker room statement

That locker room cancer/loser has now not only won the cup, Conn Smythe, and Selke, but he's also the captain of the Blues. Every person who advocated for trading ROR off the team should pipe down about how to improve the Sabres because their ideas are objectively hogwash

People who think trading a 24-year-old Eichel is the way to get the Sabres back into the playoffs are fools, and their ideas should not be taken seriously

You asked them to state it and I stated it.

I have a feeling that moving ROR was more about the reported leadership tug of war over the C and the desire to clear the path for Eichel to be captain AND the bonus was just a reason to speed things up and gut the trade return.

ROR and Eichel are two different people and two different players. My biggest concern with keeping Eichel around is that ownership and management appears to have entitled him throughout his career. I do wonder if they can build a team around him as the captain that will make the playoffs given the other issues on the roster currently.

Moving Eichel is a blow it up and start over move. It won't surprise me if they get to that point prior to 7/1/2022.

 

[explore]

You asked them to state it and I stated it.

I have a feeling that moving ROR was more about the reported leadership tug of war over the C and the desire to clear the path for Eichel to be captain AND the bonus was just a reason to speed things up and gut the trade return.

ROR and Eichel are two different people and two different players. My biggest concern with keeping Eichel around is that ownership and management appears to have entitled him throughout his career. I do wonder if they can build a team around him as the captain that will make the playoffs given the other issues on the roster currently.

Moving Eichel is a blow it up and start over move. It won't surprise me if they get to that point prior to 7/1/2022.

You re-stated what I already wrote, while adding details that don't change the core of what I wrote; then ignored/didn't acknowledge that trading ROR was not only outright foolish, but objectively the wrong decision

 

[Der Jaeger]

I have feeling an ask that big gets the old, "Call back when you have a realistic ask." response from Blake.

Kind of like the response that Regier got when Colorado called on Jay McKee and he asked for Sakic.



3 pieces is a long way away from 6 or 8 pieces.

I haven't seen one media report that said the Sabres were looking for 6 to 8 pieces in an Eichel trade.

The 4 pieces that are 1st or good looking players that are former 1sts is the only framework for a deal that I have seen.

Two totally different situations. When you're trading a top 5 center entering his prime, you ask big. And when you get offered a top 5 center entering his prime, you don't hang up the phone. You negotiate, because they don't get traded a lot. Which is why the Sabres need to ask big.

 

[Jim Bob]

You re-stated what I already wrote, while adding details that don't change the core of what I wrote; then ignored/didn't acknowledge that trading ROR was not only outright foolish, but objectively the wrong decision

Whether the ROR trade worked out or not has nothing to do with a potential Eichel trade, though.

That's like saying the Bruins won because they made their two trades where they gave away Thornton and Seguin for less than desirable returns.

In all likelihood, this team isn't making the playoffs anytime soon with or without Eichel.

 

[Jim Bob]

Two totally different situations. When you're trading a top 5 center entering his prime, you ask big. And when you get offered a top 5 center entering his prime, you don't hang up the phone. You negotiate, because they don't get traded a lot. Which is why the Sabres need to ask big.

There is a difference between a realistic big ask and an unrealistic big ask.

 

[OkimLom]

The reason the Sabres suck is almost entirely poor drafting for the last 10+ years and hiring crappy coaches who implement systems that don't complement the players. Also handing out big money contracts to players who don't deserve it. The players who produce ain't the problem in any way shape or form. Eichel, along with Reinhart are probably two of the only players who are NOT a problem on this team. Actually build around them, put complementary players around Eichel, hire a coach who gives a damn if they go offside in practice, and they'll win games. Keep getting crap like Krueger and Housley with GM's who wait WAY too long to make moves and force players into roles they're not ready for, and they'll continue to lose.

If you give up Eichel for anything less than a King's ransom, you'll regret it.

Their poor drafting (a smaller problem) is a result of what is the biggest problem with the organization. The absolute ineptness of talent and personnel evaluators at all levels. Whether that be in management or all the way to the scouting department (amateur or professional). They are poor at evaluating what makes good hockey players. They are poor at organizing or sticking with a "type" of player for the team and focusing on those type of players. This of course comes from the top and goes down the organization tree and how they are unable to find quality hockey decision makers. I'm not one to think that for failing organizations in sports is a product of only one problem. There are many problems on this team, but the biggest problem if fixed can have an impact on the organization and can at least start to affect the smaller problems in a positive way.

 

[Jim Bob]

Their poor drafting (a smaller problem) is a result of what is the biggest problem with the organization. The absolute ineptness of talent and personnel evaluators at all levels. Whether that be in management or all the way to the scouting department (amateur or professional). They are poor at evaluating what makes good hockey players. They are poor at organizing or sticking with a "type" of player for the team and focusing on those type of players. This of course comes from the top and goes down the organization tree and how they are unable to find quality hockey decision makers. I'm not one to think that for failing organizations in sports is a product of only one problem. There are many problems on this team, but the biggest problem if fixed can have an impact on the organization and can at least start to affect the smaller problems in a positive way.

I think that is driven by the consistent turnover at the GM position.

The 2020 Draft was based on Adams' idea of an ideal Sabre player.

The 2017-2019 Drafts were based on Botterill's idea of an ideal Sabre player.

The 2014-2016 Drafts were based on Murray's idea of an ideal Sabre player.

And the 2013 and earlier drafts were based on Regier's idea of an ideal Sabre player. (Risto, McCabe, and ZG are the three remaining players from the Regier drafts)

You have players on the NHL roster that were drafted by 3 different Sabres GMs and it will be 4 as soon as Quinn, JJP, and crew hit the big club.

 

[Team Cozens]

Assume the trade above for LA. They drop close to $10M as the Kovalchuk termination cost ends, and the Phaneuf buyout drops. East fit for Eichel, salary wise, and they already have $9.5M open with Iafallo's $2.4M coming off the books. Assuming they sign all their RFAs, and they should be able to given their cap space, here's there team next year:

Athanasiou - Eichel - Kempe
Byfield - Kopitar - Brown
Kaliyev - Carter - Moore
Lizotte - Anderson-Dolan - Wagner
x Frk, Amadio, Kupari, Fagemo, Thomas, Madden, Andersson

Anderson - Doughty
Maatta - Walker
MacDermid - Roy
x Spence, Durzi, Clague

Petersen
Quick

And apparently Quick is going to the Leafs so.... lotsa cash.

 

[explore]

Whether the ROR trade worked out or not has nothing to do with a potential Eichel trade, though.

That's like saying the Bruins won because they made their two trades where they gave away Thornton and Seguin for less than desirable returns.

In all likelihood, this team isn't making the playoffs anytime soon with or without Eichel.

Your opinion is outright foolish.

The Bruins were able to recover from trading Thornton and Seguin because they had extensive team depth and were able to attract free agents due to their location.

When they traded Thornton, Bergeron was already a 70-point center, Krejci was in the system, so was Marchand and Lucic, they then signed Chara and Savard in the offseason. When they traded Seguin, he was their 3C on a roster that was good enough to win the cup--and he wasn't a key piece in their cup run.

Buffalo is not in a position to replicate what Boston did. They weren't in that position when they traded ROR and they won't be in that position if they trade Eichel.

The ROR trade not working has everything to do with a potential Eichel trade. The Sabres didn't have the team depth to trade him, let alone for the absolute garbage their received for him. Likewise, the Sabres can't afford to trade Eichel given that they have no one in the system capable of even replacing 70% of his offensive output. Cozens is on pace to score 21 points over a full 82-game season as a 20-year-old. Banking on him as an Eichel replacement as some people have been doing is identical to the fools who thought Mittelstadt was going to immediately replace ROR as the 2C after trading him.

This team isn't making the playoffs this year with Eichel, but without Eichel, this team isn't making the playoffs for at least another five years.

The right move is sign a proper #1 or #1A goaltender and re-sign Ulmark, then hire a successful NHL head coach, not trading Eichel or any other core roster player who isn't a UFA

 

[sabremike]

Whether the ROR trade worked out or not has nothing to do with a potential Eichel trade, though.

That's like saying the Bruins won because they made their two trades where they gave away Thornton and Seguin for less than desirable returns.

In all likelihood, this team isn't making the playoffs anytime soon with or without Eichel.

If the team would do something not stupid for a change and hire Boudreau instead of some clueless putz with their head up their ass to coach this team in all likelihood this team would be in the playoffs next season.

 

[brian_griffin]

If the team would do something not stupid for a change and hire Boudreau instead of some clueless putz with their head up their ass to coach this team in all likelihood this team would be in the playoffs next season.

Hey now, I will coach for cheap. And I'll get you free tickets, Sabretooth stuffed animals, and a few giraffes, so don't bad-mouth me.