News Article: McKenzie: Insight on Sabres’ coaching search, Eichel’s ‘TBD’ future

[sabremike]

Hey now, I will coach for cheap. And I'll get you free tickets, Sabretooth stuffed animals, and a few giraffes, so don't bad-mouth me.

 

[SackTastic]

Whatever. Save your ad hominem response. The speculated cost has been:

3 NHLer, 2 prospects, 1 1st
4 1st, 4 a/b prospects

I'm in the ballpark of what Adams should ask for.

Ah, piss off. I didn't attack you, not in the slightest.

I was simply making the point that in a negotiation ,if one side opens up with an absurdly large initial offer, it's highly likely the other party isn't going to invest a lot of time because it tends to be unlikely the 'high' group wants to come down to reality so they can avoid embarrassment.

 

[CanmoreMike]

“If they trade him they want four pieces that are first round picks. Or players that are playing if not in the NHL or elsewhere like the NCAA – that were first round picks and are having success and not struggling.”"

Just weighing in from another board.

Curious: do the Sabres and the Pegulas know that good players come from other rounds? Like what if this was 2003 and someone called offering their recent second round or later picks named Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, Corey Crawford and Dustin Byfulgien? Would they turn that down or maybe check in on the players first?


What an organization. Wow.

 

[explore]

Just weighing in from another board.

Curious: do the Sabres and the Pegulas know that good players come from other rounds? Like what if this was 2003 and someone called offering their recent second round or later picks named Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, Corey Crawford and Dustin Byfulgien? Would they turn that down or maybe check in on the players first?


What an organization. Wow.

It's more to ward off the Rags from calling every 10 minutes to offer some variation of Zib, Buch, Strome, and whatever

By setting the price to a ridiculous level, it hopefully reduces the number of phone calls from GMs calling about acquiring Eichel for used toilet paper, and also hopefully reduces the number of HFBoards threads from fans of other teams offering up their version of Ryder, Halak, and a 2nd for Eichel

In summary, stop annoying us with your moronic Eichel trade offers

 

[Snippit]

Just weighing in from another board.

Curious: do the Sabres and the Pegulas know that good players come from other rounds? Like what if this was 2003 and someone called offering their recent second round or later picks named Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, Corey Crawford and Dustin Byfulgien? Would they turn that down or maybe check in on the players first?


What an organization. Wow.

Just about the worst level of logic I’ve read on this board in a while. Congrats.

 

[Jim Bob]

If the team would do something not stupid for a change and hire Boudreau instead of some clueless putz with their head up their ass to coach this team in all likelihood this team would be in the playoffs next season.

There are too many roster issues for it to be all about the coach.

The #1 factor in whether the Sabres are a playoff team next year is what Adams is able to do to fill the need in goal and not behind the bench.

 

[Der Jaeger]

There are too many roster issues for it to be all about the coach.

The #1 factor in whether the Sabres are a playoff team next year is what Adams is able to do to fill the need in goal and not behind the bench.

Ullmark was good when he was healthy and it didn’t make much difference.

this issues with this team won’t be fixed by bringing in one player.

 

[Jim Bob]

Your opinion is outright foolish.

The Bruins were able to recover from trading Thornton and Seguin because they had extensive team depth and were able to attract free agents due to their location.

When they traded Thornton, Bergeron was already a 70-point center, Krejci was in the system, so was Marchand and Lucic, they then signed Chara and Savard in the offseason. When they traded Seguin, he was their 3C on a roster that was good enough to win the cup--and he wasn't a key piece in their cup run.

Buffalo is not in a position to replicate what Boston did. They weren't in that position when they traded ROR and they won't be in that position if they trade Eichel.

You missed the whole point of me bringing up what happened with Boston.

This isn't about trying to replicate what Boston did. I am actually agreeing with you on the culture change idea. Some people say that Boston won because they shed themselves of Thornton and Seguin. They felt that it was a culture thing.

The ROR trade not working has everything to do with a potential Eichel trade. The Sabres didn't have the team depth to trade him, let alone for the absolute garbage their received for him. Likewise, the Sabres can't afford to trade Eichel given that they have no one in the system capable of even replacing 70% of his offensive output. Cozens is on pace to score 21 points over a full 82-game season as a 20-year-old. Banking on him as an Eichel replacement as some people have been doing is identical to the fools who thought Mittelstadt was going to immediately replace ROR as the 2C after trading him.

This team isn't making the playoffs this year with Eichel, but without Eichel, this team isn't making the playoffs for at least another five years.

The right move is sign a proper #1 or #1A goaltender and re-sign Ulmark, then hire a successful NHL head coach, not trading Eichel or any other core roster player who isn't a UFA

Even if the Sabres re-sign Ullmark and add the best UFA goalie on the market and hire Bruce B, or your favorite FA head coach, they aren't making the playoffs next season with this core.

The Sabres core on D is a mess. The scoring depth is a mess with Hall and will be worse next season without Hall.

LaFontaine & Mogilny aren't walking through that door. Drury & Briere aren't walking through that door. Zhitnik & Kalinin aren't walking through that door.

This is going to work out like the Drury & Briere situation where everyone sees the car crash coming and there is nothing we can do about it.

The Sabres are going to do what you suggest. They are going to try and upgrade in net and behind the bench. They are going to have another top 8 pick in the 2022 Draft.

And then they are going to trade Eichel away for pennies on the dollar prior to 7/1/2022 when his next $7.5M bonus payment is due and the NMC kicks in.

 

[Jim Bob]

Ullmark was good when he was healthy and it didn’t make much difference.

this issues with this team won’t be fixed by bringing in one player.

I completely agree. But, good goaltending can cover a multitude of issues.

And good (or bad) goaltending makes or breaks coaches all the time.

 

[sabremike]

There are too many roster issues for it to be all about the coach.

The #1 factor in whether the Sabres are a playoff team next year is what Adams is able to do to fill the need in goal and not behind the bench.

The Islanders under Dead Weight sucked almost as much as the current Sabres with their entire defensive core looking like AHL level trash and everyone else not named Mat Barzal not looking much better. Then their best player walked right out the door. Enter Barry Trotz and that same team ends up with the 5th best record in the entire sport with a roster every bit as flawed as ours. Do you seriously believe an entire team's worth of players made it to this level and look less skilled or coordinated than most high school teams? That's preposterous and points the finger directly behind the bench for this fiasco. Hire Boudreau and I'd put money on this team making the playoffs next season because coaching matters.

 

[OkimLom]

Just weighing in from another board.

Curious: do the Sabres and the Pegulas know that good players come from other rounds? Like what if this was 2003 and someone called offering their recent second round or later picks named Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, Corey Crawford and Dustin Byfulgien? Would they turn that down or maybe check in on the players first?


What an organization. Wow.

1. This is coming from a media member, so not exactly the Buffalo Sabres themselves, so there should be some hesitation about taking this as fact.

2. IF this was the requirement, this tells me Buffalo will listen to offers, but outside an absolute franchise crippling of a package, they are not looking to move him. That's most likely the starting point for getting your foot in the door, as should be the case for a player like Eichel.

 

[Jim Bob]

The Islanders under Dead Weight sucked almost as much as the current Sabres with their entire defensive core looking like AHL level trash and everyone else not named Mat Barzal not looking much better. Then their best player walked right out the door. Enter Barry Trotz and that same team ends up with the 5th best record in the entire sport with a roster every bit as flawed as ours. Do you seriously believe an entire team's worth of players made it to this level and look less skilled or coordinated than most high school teams? That's preposterous and points the finger directly behind the bench for this fiasco. Hire Boudreau and I'd put money on this team making the playoffs next season because coaching matters.

There is a big difference in how Boudreau and Trotz approach the game.

Plus, Trotz wasn't the only hire that changed things for the Isles. Their organization made a huge investment in getting Mitch Korn as their director of goaltending.

I don't see the Sabres getting a Trotz/Korn combo that could potentially get this team to play rock solid hockey in the D Zone that sparks offense the other way.

I'm not saying that coaching doesn't matter. I am saying that goaltending matters more. And the Isles moves when they brought Trotz in was about improving their goaltending through the investment in Korn, and the rest of the goalie coaching staff, and playing a very goalie-friendly style in front of their goalies.

 

[SackTastic]

Just weighing in from another board.

Curious: do the Sabres and the Pegulas know that good players come from other rounds? Like what if this was 2003 and someone called offering their recent second round or later picks named Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, Corey Crawford and Dustin Byfulgien? Would they turn that down or maybe check in on the players first?


What an organization. Wow.

On your other board, does your team ever use draft picks as capital for other moves? Or do they always just use ever pick they acquire right where it is?

Yes, this organization doesn't know what the hell it's doing, but come on now.

 

[explore]

You missed the whole point of me bringing up what happened with Boston.

This isn't about trying to replicate what Boston did. I am actually agreeing with you on the culture change idea. Some people say that Boston won because they shed themselves of Thornton and Seguin. They felt that it was a culture thing.



Even if the Sabres re-sign Ullmark and add the best UFA goalie on the market and hire Bruce B, or your favorite FA head coach, they aren't making the playoffs next season with this core.

The Sabres core on D is a mess. The scoring depth is a mess with Hall and will be worse next season without Hall.

LaFontaine & Mogilny aren't walking through that door. Drury & Briere aren't walking through that door. Zhitnik & Kalinin aren't walking through that door.

This is going to work out like the Drury & Briere situation where everyone sees the car crash coming and there is nothing we can do about it.

The Sabres are going to do what you suggest. They are going to try and upgrade in net and behind the bench. They are going to have another top 8 pick in the 2022 Draft.

And then they are going to trade Eichel away for pennies on the dollar prior to 7/1/2022 when his next $7.5M bonus payment is due and the NMC kicks in.

There is a big difference in how Boudreau and Trotz approach the game.

Plus, Trotz wasn't the only hire that changed things for the Isles. Their organization made a huge investment in getting Mitch Korn as their director of goaltending.

I don't see the Sabres getting a Trotz/Korn combo that could potentially get this team to play rock solid hockey in the D Zone that sparks offense the other way.

I'm not saying that coaching doesn't matter. I am saying that goaltending matters more. And the Isles moves when they brought Trotz in was about improving their goaltending through the investment in Korn, and the rest of the goalie coaching staff, and playing a very goalie-friendly style in front of their goalies.

You're moving goal posts, or you don't really know what your point is. You're saying coaching doesn't matter, then you're saying coaching does matter, but goaltending matters more, but then you said earlier upgrading goaltending isn't going to make a meaningful difference because the Sabres don't have a super-special goalie coach.

Hiring a competent coach is a big step in the right direction. Getting a proper #1 goalie and re-signing Ulmark is another big step in the right direction. Getting a good goalie coach can also be a part of that direction. None of those moves are exclusive to each other.

Trotz and Cooper were both in the same position Boudreau is in now--being considered a good regular season coach, but not good enough to adjust in the playoffs. Both Trotz and Cooper were on the hot seat on their respective teams up until they won the cup.

I think your main point is "things aren't going to work out no matter what changes because the Pegulas will find a way to screw it up," in which case just say that and shut up about all these other incoherent things your saying.

 

[Sabre the Win]

There is a difference between a realistic big ask and an unrealistic big ask.

Not when negotiating, if you're the seller you want to start as big as possible even if it is unrealistic. If a team is actually interested in Eichel they won't hang up the phone but they will start to negotiate.

Adams: We want the moon
Other GM: that's too rich for my blood
Adams: what would you consider a decent offer
Other GM: this is what I think, a quarter of the moon

This is when you begin the negotiating progress, they give their lowest, you give them your highest even if it is unrealistic because their lowest offer will be unrealistic as well to land someone of Eichel's calibre and if Adams is good he gets them to meet in the middle or if he's really good get them to meet more on his end.

 

[flashsabre]

Just weighing in from another board.

Curious: do the Sabres and the Pegulas know that good players come from other rounds? Like what if this was 2003 and someone called offering their recent second round or later picks named Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, Corey Crawford and Dustin Byfulgien? Would they turn that down or maybe check in on the players first?


What an organization. Wow.

Hey, I think I hear the other board calling your name. Better hurry back now.

 

[brian_griffin]

Not when negotiating, if you're the seller you want to start as big as possible even if it is unrealistic.

Agreed. Never negotiate against yourself.

 

[Jim Bob]

You're moving goal posts, or you don't really know what your point is. You're saying coaching doesn't matter, then you're saying coaching does matter, but goaltending matters more, but then you said earlier upgrading goaltending isn't going to make a meaningful difference because the Sabres don't have a super-special goalie coach.

Hiring a competent coach is a big step in the right direction. Getting a proper #1 goalie and re-signing Ulmark is another big step in the right direction. Getting a good goalie coach can also be a part of that direction. None of those moves are exclusive to each other.

Trotz and Cooper were both in the same position Boudreau is in now--being considered a good regular season coach, but not good enough to adjust in the playoffs. Both Trotz and Cooper were on the hot seat on their respective teams up until they won the cup.

I think your main point is "things aren't going to work out no matter what changes because the Pegulas will find a way to screw it up," in which case just say that and shut up about all these other incoherent things your saying.

I can understand why you think I moved the goalposts. But, I believe the issue is that it is a false equivalence to try and use what Trotz did with the Isles to what someone like Boudreau could do here.

First, the Isles were not the worst team in the NHL the season prior to Trotz landing there. They had an 80 point season and were much better than the Sabres are now. Also, the Isles didn't have multiple dead last place finishes in the previous handful of seasons prior to Trotz arriving.

Second, Trotz, along with Korn, build both a system in front of the goalies and the goalies themselves to work together to be so strong defensively. That has never been the way Boudreau has approached things, either.

And it isn't just about the Pegulas. It is also about a rookie GM who is learning his way and can't be expected to fix all the issues with this team next off season. Heck, even with moves that looked good on paper leading into this season, this team took a huge step backward this year.

Hiring a competent head coach is important. I never argued otherwise.

All I said is that hiring a coach like Boudreau alone isn't enough to get this team into the playoffs next season and that shoring up the goaltending is going to be even more important to get this team into the playoffs.

You can hope that guys like Eichel and Skinner won't have career low Shooting%s again next year.

But, I don't think it is reasonable to stand relatively pat in net and hope that things will be good enough. And standing pat both in goal and on D is the approach that Adams took heading into this year.

 

[Zip15]

Ullmark was good when he was healthy and it didn’t make much difference.

this issues with this team won’t be fixed by bringing in one player.

In fairness, Ullmark is 22-18-5 since last year. That equates to about 90pts in an 82-game season. They need to bring back Ullmark, get another goaltender as good or better than Ullmark, get a major upgrade behind the bench, and continue to upgrade their skaters - and included in that last issue is finding someone who will be completely unwilling to play guys like Okposo and Eakin on a nightly basis (or at all). There's a lot to do.

 

[Der Jaeger]

In fairness, Ullmark is 22-18-5 since last year. That equates to about 90pts in an 82-game season. They need to bring back Ullmark, get another goaltender as good or better than Ullmark, get a major upgrade behind the bench, and continue to upgrade their skaters - and included in that last issue is finding someone who will be completely unwilling to play guys like Okposo and Eakin on a nightly basis (or at all). There's a lot to do.

You said a lot there I agree with. But I completely disagree that goaltending is the issue holding this team back - not your assumptions, others have talked about it as the most important upgrade. It's not.

Dustin Tokarski was a street free agent with a career of decent AHL play. He comes in and let's in 4 goals, but only two were his fault. He got beat on a 2nd effort rebound and a clean shot. His opposite got beat by a clean shot (Skinner), and great bang-bang play (Cozens), and a rebound (Asplund). The difference is the Sabres gifted Kreider two power play goals, basically unchallenged in front of the net.

It's a 4-3 game heading into the final minute, when it should've been a 3-2 Sabres lead or a tie. Kreider's goals were not Tokarski's fault. Those goals were the result of crappy coaching.

First, get a real NHL coach with a working NHL system, especially defensively and in transition. Then add in some better players (see my proposal from the roster thread). Get some physical players, move on from Okposo, minimize the useless (Eakin) or trade them.

THEN get a goalie.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
When you're building a Cup contender, you don't need an elite goalie. You just need a hot goalie, or one in the middle of a consistent stretch. Most goalies are up and down. Hasek is the only goalie I've ever seen who could win on his own. Brodeur, Roy, Belfour, Turco, Lundqvist,Vasilevskiy, etc. won a lot because they were consistent. They didn't have the ups and downs, at least not dramatically.

Some teams get a goalie on a consistent stretch and take advantage. Giguere with Anaheim, Thomas with Boston, Niemi with Chicago, Murray with Pittsburgh.

Some teams win with goalies who can minimize the ups and downs. Ups aren't too high, and lows never too low. Osgood, Hotlby, Crawford. And some have average lows, and really hot highs. Fleury, Quick.

But you don't need the best goalie to win. Lundqvist lost his only Cup appearance. Price has never made the finals. Kiprusoff made one finals. Turco never made it. Luongo made one finals. Rinne, one finals. Rask, two finals, lost both. Bobrovsky, no finals.

Bottom line: get a real NHL coach with real systems, then fix the issues with the team, THEN find as consistent a goalie as you can. It won't matter if the Sabres had Vasilevskiy, they won't win without a real NHL coach and a better roster.

 

[Archie Lee]

You said a lot there I agree with. But I completely disagree that goaltending is the issue holding this team back - not your assumptions, others have talked about it as the most important upgrade. It's not.

Dustin Tokarski was a street free agent with a career of decent AHL play. He comes in and let's in 4 goals, but only two were his fault. He got beat on a 2nd effort rebound and a clean shot. His opposite got beat by a clean shot (Skinner), and great bang-bang play (Cozens), and a rebound (Asplund). The difference is the Sabres gifted Kreider two power play goals, basically unchallenged in front of the net.

It's a 4-3 game heading into the final minute, when it should've been a 3-2 Sabres lead or a tie. Kreider's goals were not Tokarski's fault. Those goals were the result of crappy coaching.

First, get a real NHL coach with a working NHL system, especially defensively and in transition. Then add in some better players (see my proposal from the roster thread). Get some physical players, move on from Okposo, minimize the useless (Eakin) or trade them.

THEN get a goalie.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
When you're building a Cup contender, you don't need an elite goalie. You just need a hot goalie, or one in the middle of a consistent stretch. Most goalies are up and down. Hasek is the only goalie I've ever seen who could win on his own. Brodeur, Roy, Belfour, Turco, Lundqvist,Vasilevskiy, etc. won a lot because they were consistent. They didn't have the ups and downs, at least not dramatically.

Some teams get a goalie on a consistent stretch and take advantage. Giguere with Anaheim, Thomas with Boston, Niemi with Chicago, Murray with Pittsburgh.

Some teams win with goalies who can minimize the ups and downs. Ups aren't too high, and lows never too low. Osgood, Hotlby, Crawford. And some have average lows, and really hot highs. Fleury, Quick.

But you don't need the best goalie to win. Lundqvist lost his only Cup appearance. Price has never made the finals. Kiprusoff made one finals. Turco never made it. Luongo made one finals. Rinne, one finals. Rask, two finals, lost both. Bobrovsky, no finals.

Bottom line: get a real NHL coach with real systems, then fix the issues with the team, THEN find as consistent a goalie as you can. It won't matter if the Sabres had Vasilevskiy, they won't win without a real NHL coach and a better roster.

I agree with much of what you wrote, but would add that there is no reason why a team can't do all of these things. We can debate the sequence of importance of getting a better coach, fixing some roster holes or getting a better back-up goalie...but there is no reason why they can't focus on all three.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I agree with much of what you wrote, but would add that there is no reason why a team can't do all of these things. We can debate the sequence of importance of getting a better coach, fixing some roster holes or getting a better back-up goalie...but there is no reason why they can't focus on all three.

True. But some on this board have the idea that getting a goalie is the most important task. It isn't. Get a coach, fix the roster, then get a good, consistent goalie, and then the team is contending.