News Article: Matt Petgrave arrested suspicion of manslaughter. Adam Johnson

[NeelyDan]

Sure but there’s hitting in hockey, so your example is not on par. There’s also fighting in hockey and nobody gets arrested for assault. If you fight someone out in public, you do. So applying the law for chosen things while ignoring it for others is suspect, imo.

Didn’t the rat Kenny Linseman get charged with attempted murder for kicking a guy back in the 70s or early 80s? I think it was ruled on by the courts as part of the game and a risk a player takes, iicrc.

Kicking a guy with a skate is a risk lmao

 

[PB37]

Sure but there’s hitting in hockey, so your example is not on par. There’s also fighting in hockey and nobody gets arrested for assault. If you fight someone out in public, you do. So applying the law for chosen things while ignoring it for others is suspect, imo.

Didn’t the rat Kenny Linseman get charged with attempted murder for kicking a guy back in the 70s or early 80s? I think it was ruled on by the courts as part of the game and a risk a player takes, iicrc.

When the act crosses the line and it kills someone, it should be scrutinized, investigated, and potentially punished by the law. At that point, it should be taken out of the league's hands because a death was involved and the act itself was highly questionable. Hockey violence that results in injury falls within the realm of what's allowed or punished by the league. Death via hockey violence should never be allowed to be settled by the league alone.

 

[hrdpuk]

From the videos I don't see intent

 

[PB37]

Yes, and they are comparing it to this "hit" when Petgrave was playing junior.
Edit: No injury here, just a trailing leg, but a similar motion.

Yeah, it looks like Petgrave has been suspended/ejected multiple times over the course of his hockey career. Lead his league in PIMS last year.

 

[LSCII]

Man, this thread is all:

 

[Bruinswillwin77]

Man, this thread is all:
View attachment 768634

First thing I see on HF today, oh boy lol what have I missed.

 

[LSCII]

Kicking a guy with a skate is a risk lmao

Now come on dude, I didn't say that. I was simply pointing to a precedent that was already set. where there was clear intent and even that didn't result in a guy getting prison.

 

[Johnnyduke]

It was a freak accident

No. Intent can be debated but nothing about the reckless, unnatural act will allow me to call this a freak accident. I just don't think that is the proper phrasing here.

From the videos I don't see intent

Intent to slice his neck? No, probably not. But that's what happened as a result of an unnecessary, reckless act. Nothing about it was a natural hockey play.

 

[NeelyDan]

Now come on dude, I didn't say that. I was simply pointing to a precedent that was already set. where there was clear intent and even that didn't result in a guy getting prison.

lol, I know. just trying to have some fun, which I suppose is a bit morbid lol

 

[LSCII]

No. Intent can be debated but nothing about the reckless, unnatural act will allow me to call this a freak accident. I just don't think that is the proper phrasing here.


Intent to slice his neck? No, probably not. But that's what happened as a result of an unnecessary, reckless act. Nothing about it was a natural hockey play.

Reckless plays happen in every hockey game and they generally go unnoticed or unpunished because the result isn't drastic. Picking and choosing when to apply a punitive action is problematic for me. It's a slippery slope to tell someone what their intent behind something was, and once you start down that path, when does it end? Are we going to sit there and decide to punish anything someone deems to be reckless? Or are we just looking at results and then legislating some kind of penalty? I see this as an unnecessary way to run a sport that the players all know to be physical and dangerous to start with.

 

[Gee Wally]

National tv just had a British lawyer on. Essentially manslaughter over there is ‘any death that may be a result of negligence’.

Sport or no sport, intent or no intent are not germane to the specific charge.

 

[Johnnyduke]

I don't think anyone is telling him what his intent was. If authorities thought he intended to slash a guy's neck I am sure he would be facing more than a manslaughter inquiry. And normally I would agree that trying to adjudicate something that happens in a sporting event in a courtroom is a slippery slope. But there is precedent. Marty McSorley comes to mind. The rarest of sports incidents should potentially see a courtroom. I just think this is one of those instances. Or at the very least look into it, question hockey experts and even some physics expert etc. I think the Johnson family is deserving of a full investigation into this incident. And I simply cannot accept it being classified as a "freak accident". Doesn't mean he intentionally cut his neck either. It's in between with plenty of grey area.

When someone recklessly/unnaturally clips a 6' tall player who is standing upright with their skate I don't think that is picking and choosing. I think it's actually a quite obvious incident to take a real hard look at. When someone is dead as a result that is the most extreme case you can have.

National tv just had a British lawyer on. Essentially manslaughter over there is ‘any death that may be a result of negligence’.

Sport or no sport, intent or no intent are not germane to the specific charge.

I would say this tragic incident being the result of negligence is a pretty accurate description.

 

[PatriceBergeron]

The problem is we are now subjectively arguing over what is reckless vs. what is an unlucky accident. You need to prove that what the player did was negligent.

You can argue that every penalty committed in every sport is “reckless”. If a pitcher throws a fastball high and inside and it hits a batter in the head and kills him, are we now going to argue that the pitch was reckless and the pitcher should be charged with manslaughter?

I can create similar scenarios in every single sport. Luckily we haven’t had many deaths in major sports recently, but charging this guy would set a bad precedent.

 

[PB37]

The problem is we are now subjectively arguing over what is reckless vs. what is an unlucky accident. You need to prove that what the player did was negligent.

You can argue that every penalty committed in every sport is “reckless”. If a pitcher throws a fastball high and inside and it hits a batter in the head and kills him, are we now going to argue that the pitch was reckless and the pitcher should be charged with manslaughter?

I can create similar scenarios in every single sport. Luckily we haven’t had many deaths in major sports recently, but charging this guy would set a bad precedent.

I think in your example, a HPB happens fairly frequently and is considered within the realm of violence acceptable within it's sport. In the hockey world, a flying skate to the throat rarely happens and when it does, it's incidental and the case of a trip or a player falling to the ice. In this case, the person delivering the blow was looking at him and has a history of dirty play including sticking his foot out to slow down a player that made a cut to blow by him. He meant to lift his lead foot off the ice and make contact with Johnson and misjudged how high to bring his skate up. I think the video is pretty clear cut on that.

I'll be honest - if a HBP hits a batter in the head and it kills them, then yes - I absolutely think that player deserves to face legal consequence. We're not talking injury here, it's death and an opposing player was the reason for it.

 

[LSCII]

The problem is we are now subjectively arguing over what is reckless vs. what is an unlucky accident. You need to prove that what the player did was negligent.

You can argue that every penalty committed in every sport is “reckless”. If a pitcher throws a fastball high and inside and it hits a batter in the head and kills him, are we now going to argue that the pitch was reckless and the pitcher should be charged with manslaughter?

I can create similar scenarios in every single sport. Luckily we haven’t had many deaths in major sports recently, but charging this guy would set a bad precedent.

This is exactly right. Great example about the pitcher too.

 

[LSCII]

I think in your example, a HPB happens fairly frequently and is considered within the realm of violence acceptable within it's sport. In the hockey world, a flying skate to the throat rarely happens and when it does, it's incidental and the case of a trip or a player falling to the ice. In this case, the person delivering the blow was looking at him and has a history of dirty play including sticking his foot out to slow down a player that made a cut to blow by him. He meant to lift his lead foot off the ice and make contact with Johnson and misjudged how high to bring his skate up. I think the video is pretty clear cut on that.

I'll be honest - if a HBP hits a batter in the head and it kills them, then yes - I absolutely think that player deserves to face legal consequence. We're not talking injury here, it's death and an opposing player was the reason for it.

Lauko just literally got hit in the face by a skate a few weeks ago. Accidental too. Weird how that happens when you play a game with blades fastened to feet and no full masks and neck protectors, no? Seems to me, the league is more culpable for not mandating player protection and safety than any player accidentally cutting someone. Didn't someone else on the Bruins get cut last year in the quad? And Seidenberg a few years ago during the playoffs? And lets not forget the infamous Clint Malarchuk incident.

 

[Score8]

This is exactly right. Great example about the pitcher too.

You seem to be discounting the player’s history and reputation, further , you seem to chalking up and incident that has never happened in the history of professional hockey as an accident by a player that has proven to walk the line of acceptable conduct in the game of hockey his entire career. I’m fairly confident he didn’t expect this outcome, but to say he’s not liable is allowing for this type of behavior in the future. I’m not sure how an objective observer watches that video and justifies that extra leg kick , up that high , in the context of the physics of that hit, is an accident. Luckily for that poor man’s family the authorities seemed to think there was something there to investigate.

 

[PB37]

Lauko just literally got hit in the face by a skate a few weeks ago. Accidental too. Weird how that happens when you play a game with blades fastened to feet and no full masks and neck protectors, no? Seems to me, the league is more culpable for not mandating player protection and safety than any player accidentally cutting someone. Didn't someone else on the Bruins get cut last year in the quad? And Seidenberg a few years ago during the playoffs? And lets not forget the infamous Clint Malarchuk incident.

Again, you're talking about incidents that were clear cut accidents that resulted in only injury and in comparison to baseball, happen far FAR less frequently than a HBP. There's a lot to suggest that this was no accident and it caused a horrific death. I don't think he meant to kill him but he willfully lifted his skate up to trip Johnson, like he's done before but misjudged or lost control of how high his skate blade came up off the ice. He's a known dirty player in his league and has been suspended multiple times.

 

[Johnnyduke]

The problem is we are now subjectively arguing over what is reckless vs. what is an unlucky accident. You need to prove that what the player did was negligent.

It's not a problem for me. I know what a freak accident is in hockey and this did not qualify. I understand people disagree. The argument for negligence is pretty simple. It was an unnatural lifting of the leg/skate not caused by anything that happened to Petgrave leading up to the collision. A motion that has never been seen before in the history of the sport. I'm not a law expert I have no idea what will happen here. But it's a pretty straight forward case to present to a jury or judge as far as I am concerned.

 

[Johnnyduke]

If a pitcher throws a fastball high and inside and it hits a batter in the head and kills him, are we now going to argue that the pitch was reckless and the pitcher should be charged with manslaughter?

To use this example, if a pitcher hits a guy in the head immediately after one of his guys gets hit then I could see manslaughter as a possibility. But even then I'm not sure why we have to try and make other comparisons. This case with Petgrave is so far and above anything we have ever seen before. We have seen TONS of accidental skate cut incidents. I just don't see how anyone can try to lump this one with those.

 

[Score8]

To use this example, if a pitcher hits a guy in the head immediately after one of his guys gets hit then I could see manslaughter as a possibility. But even then I'm not sure why we have to try and make other comparisons. This case with Petgrave is so far and above anything we have ever seen before. We have seen TONS of accidental skate cut incidents. I just don't see how anyone can try to lump this one with those.

The baseball argument is a poor analogy imo, you literally have a guy throwing a ball at another guy aiming for minuscule zone , shit happens, but at least that’s part of the game. This leg kick on this hit was not part of the game, nor has it ever been because it’s never happened before. 150 years and it’s never happened by accident, but we’re supposed to give the guy with his history the benefit of the doubt? Too many odd things involved to automatically claim this was an accident. Don’t see the harm in chasing this down. Maybe it sends a message to other players with apparent lack of impulse control?!

 

[HooperDrivesTheBoat]

This wasn't just a normal accident. A man died because of the result of it. Skates have flown up in the air before from players tripped or hip checked but this was different.

He most likely didn't go in with the intent to cut Johnson's throat. My guess is that he felt Johnson was going to blow buy him so he stuck his leg out to go for trip or maybe try to slow him down with it and misjudged how high to lift his leg. Completely reckless play and one that ended someone's life. He deserves harsh punishment.

This is how I see it as well.

 

[Gee Wally]

Man arrested over death of a hockey player whose neck was cut with skate blade is released on bail in London - The Boston Globe

South Yorkshire Police did not name the suspect or provide his age. He was arrested on Tuesday.

www.bostonglobe.com

LONDON — A man who was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter in the death of American ice hockey player Adam Johnson, whose neck was cut by a skate during a game, was released on bail Wednesday.

Johnson, 29, was playing for the Nottingham Panthers against the Sheffield Steelers on Oct. 28 when he was struck by an opponent’s skate blade in the Elite Ice Hockey League game at Sheffield’s home arena in central England.

A post-mortem examination confirmed he died as a result of a fatal neck injury, police said.
South Yorkshire Police did not name the suspect or provide his age. He was arrested on Tuesday, and released on bail on Wednesday pending further inquiries.

Video of the incident shows Johnson skating with the puck toward the Steelers net. Petgrave skates toward Johnson and collides with another Panthers player. Petgrave’s left skate kicks up as he begins to fall and the blade hits Johnson in the neck.

Both players land on the ice. Petgrave immediately got to his feet. Johnson rose more slowly and as he is helped off the ice, his jersey covered in blood. He later died at a local hospital.

“Our investigation launched immediately following this tragedy and we have been carrying out extensive inquiries ever since to piece together the events which led to the loss of Adam in these unprecedented circumstances,” Detective Chief Superintendent Becs Horsfall said.

Stephen Halloran, a criminal defense solicitor and managing director at Lawtons Solicitors in London, said manslaughter investigations are “not straightforward” and can be committed in several different ways in England and Wales. They can range from an offense that is not far from being an accident through to one that falls just short of murder.

He said that in this case police are potentially looking at involuntary manslaughter.

Halloran said that involuntary or unlawful act manslaughter is “when an unlawful killing has taken place but there was no intention to kill or to cause grievous bodily harm.”

In the case of voluntary manslaughter, all the elements for murder are present, including an intention to kill or cause serious harm, but the crime has been reduced to manslaughter by reason of loss of control or diminished responsibility due to a recognized mental condition.

It would be rare, but not unprecedented, for a hockey player to be charged.

Giacinto “Jim” Boni was charged in Italy with culpable homicide after he slashed Miran Schrott in the chest during a game on Jan. 14, 1992, and Schrott died as a result of a cardiac event. Boni pleaded guilty to manslaughter.

Two NHL players in recent history have been charged with a crime in Canada for an on-ice action: Marty McSorley and Todd Bertuzzi.

In 2000, McSorley was found guilty of assault with a deadly weapon for a two-handed slash to the head of Donald Brashear with his stick. He was sentenced to 18 months probation.

In 2004, Bertuzzi pleaded guilty to assault for grabbing Steve Moore from behind and sucker punching him. Bertuzzi agreed to a plea deal and was sentenced to one year probation and 80 hours of community service.


The Panthers said in a statement on social media that Johnson died tragically following a “freak accident.”
Nottingham teammate Westin Michaud, who posted tributes to Johnson, also defended Petgrave for what he said was an “unintentional clip” with the other player that uprighted him.
“The hate that Matt is receiving is terrible and completely uncalled for,” Michaud posted. “It’s clear to me his actions were unintentional and anyone suggesting otherwise is mistaken. Let’s come together and not spread unwarranted hate to someone who needs our support.”

 

[TD Charlie]

National tv just had a British lawyer on. Essentially manslaughter over there is ‘any death that may be a result of negligence’.

Sport or no sport, intent or no intent are not germane to the specific charge.

What are they considering negligence though? I think that’s the key. If it’s a tripping penalty and someone’s head cracks off the ice, does that also qualify?

It’s a slippery slope.

It depends on what your definition of is is

 

[EvilDead]

The baseball argument is a poor analogy imo, you literally have a guy throwing a ball at another guy aiming for minuscule zone , shit happens, but at least that’s part of the game. This leg kick on this hit was not part of the game, nor has it ever been because it’s never happened before. 150 years and it’s never happened by accident, but we’re supposed to give the guy with his history the benefit of the doubt? Too many odd things involved to automatically claim this was an accident. Don’t see the harm in chasing this down. Maybe it sends a message to other players with apparent lack of impulse control?!

Again, you're assuming that Petgrave had control over his legs when his skate cut Johnson's neck. From the angle we have, it looks like Petgrave's legs were knocked out from under him and he had no control over his body when in air. People are acting like Petgrave is some Hollywood stunt actor who was contorting his body in mid air so he could intentionally thrust kick Johnson in the throat with his skates on when it's clear he's not.

National tv just had a British lawyer on. Essentially manslaughter over there is ‘any death that may be a result of negligence’.

Sport or no sport, intent or no intent are not germane to the specific charge.

It has to meet the guidelines of blatant gross negligence that could've been avoided. If testimony, video angles, and so on show Petgrave could've avoided this incident, he will get booked for manslaughter.