News Article: Matt Petgrave arrested suspicion of manslaughter. Adam Johnson

[UConn126]

It was reckless to the point it looks intentional to my eyes. Awful incident.

My first thought when I saw the clip was that it looked like he was lined up to try to destroy the guy with a hit. He gets knocked off balance and the skate comes up, I don't think that part was intentional, but to me it looked like there was dirty intent going for a big open ice hit. But nothing that should warrant any legal charges. Part of playing the game is the risk of injury.

 

[Johnnyduke]

It’s amazing to me that Ali posted what she did just a few posts in and we’re still seeing the responses that we are in here

An interesting study of human nature I suppose

Please forgive me for having my own eyes and having my own opinion on what I saw. Again, kudos to the police thus far.

Unfortunately these guys play dangerous games where serious injuries can happen. The idea of charging someone for manslaughter without being able to prove what their intent was is a slippery slope.

Is it though? I thought the whole purpose of a manslaughter charge is that it's not based on intent. To me it was a reckless, unnatural act on the ice. I am not saying he intended to kill the guy but he absolutely lifted the skate on his own to a dangerous height and he should be facing criticism and potentially a charge. When you do something that stupid/reckless/unnecessary you are endangering your opponent to the largest degree possible. I think there's a reason we have never seen such an unnatural karate kick type motion before. A kick to the neck of a 6' tall player who was basically standing upright. If people want to hide behind this being some "freak accident" go right ahead.

 

[PatriceBergeron]

Please forgive me for having my own eyes and having my own opinion on what I saw. Again, kudos to the police thus far.


Is it though? I thought the whole purpose of a manslaughter charge is that it's not based on intent. To me it was a reckless, unnatural act on the ice. I am not saying he intended to kill the guy but he absolutely lifted the skate on his own to a dangerous height and he should be facing criticism and potentially a charge. When you do something that stupid/reckless/unnecessary you are endangering your opponent to the largest degree possible. I think there's a reason we have never seen such an unnatural karate kick type motion before.

Maybe it was reckless, I don’t know, but if a player ever broke his neck sliding into the boards after a tripping or boarding penalty should the person who took the penalty be charged with manslaughter?

Again I use the Chara example. If Pacioretty had been more seriously injured on that play should Chara have been charged? People certainly can (and did) argue that those two players had a history and that it was intentional.

I just don’t like the idea of players being charged with a crime unless it’s blatantly obvious that they were attempting to injure. To me, I don’t know how you prove that in this case.

 

[Johnnyduke]

Maybe it was reckless, I don’t know, but if a player ever broke his neck sliding into the boards after a tripping or boarding penalty should the person who took the penalty be charged with manslaughter?

Again I use the Chara example. If Pacioretty had been more seriously injured on that play should Chara have been charged? People certainly can (and did) argue that those two players had a history and that it was intentional.

I just don’t like the idea of players being charged with a crime unless it’s blatantly obvious that they were attempting to injure. To me, I don’t know how you prove that in this case.

At least tripping and boarding are "normal" hockey plays. It's difficult to put into words other than I couldn't believe what I saw in the video and have no problem with it being investigated. Talk to hockey players, review Petgrave's history on the ice, talk to physics experts etc. I don't know how the system works in the UK but I wouldn't have a problem with a jury hearing testimony about what happened. I understand the "nobody knows intent" angle but that's common in a lot of criminal cases. I don't think there's a great answer to any of this. But when I see something so reckless and unnatural that results in someone dying as a result I am completely fine with this case setting some kind of precedent.

 

[Johnnyduke]

Also, if the Johnson family came out and said "we think this was a tragic accident" that might change my opinion. If they had that type of closure ok but if they think their son was taken from them because of a reckless, unnatural act then I think they deserve an investigation. It's clear not everyone agrees on what happened/what should happen. But from the moment I saw this clip I immediately thought oh my god that isn't right and that person should probably be charged with something. At that point I had no idea who the person even was. It was just an initial reaction to something so dangerous/reckless and like nothing I have ever seen in a hockey game before.

 

[HHHH]

Obviously different laws apply in different nations, but this is the resolution of a case from Italy in the 1990's -->

Italian hockey player pleads guilty to manslaughter - UPI Archives

Italian hockey player Jimmy Boni pleaded guilty to a reduced manslaughter charge for causing the death of an opponent during an Italian League game and was...

www.upi.com

Longer story about Jim Boni and the incident -->

https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/12/06/a-cruel-blow-a-seemingly-harmless-slash-to-the-chest-resulted-in-the-death-of-a-hockey-player-in-italy-now-jimmy-boni-will-go-on-trial-for-manslaughter

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Maybe it was reckless, I don’t know, but if a player ever broke his neck sliding into the boards after a tripping or boarding penalty should the person who took the penalty be charged with manslaughter?

Again I use the Chara example. If Pacioretty had been more seriously injured on that play should Chara have been charged? People certainly can (and did) argue that those two players had a history and that it was intentional.

I just don’t like the idea of players being charged with a crime unless it’s blatantly obvious that they were attempting to injure. To me, I don’t know how you prove that in this case.

Again, manslaughter is causing death through a reckless act without intent or malice.

Basically exactly what happened in this situation

 

[Alicat]

Again, manslaughter is causing death through a reckless act without intent or malice.

Basically exactly what happened in this situation

Is that the legal definition in the UK?

I know that’s how we define it here in the States.

If they do feel charges are necessary I would support manslaughter.

I will be watching this case from a legal standpoint and focusing specifically how the charges are filed as well as the jury instructions to see if they are able to consider a lesser charge. I’ve been on a jury in a murder case and we were not allowed to consider lesser charges.

The whole incident is so tragic.

 

[Donnie Shulzhoffer]

"Sentencing for manslaughter, defined as murder without premeditation, is at the discretion of the judge."

Manslaughter Sentencing in the UK | Lawtons Law

Sentences for manslaughter offences vary significantly and depend on a number of factors. Here is everything you need to know about manslaughter sentencing in the UK.

www.lawtonslaw.co.uk

 

[TD Charlie]

It’s a hockey play gone horribly bad. The leg was extended to stop the opposing player from passing by, just as it happens often in the NHL. Petgrave made some contact with another player and threw his hips off balance a bit, the extended leg is now on an entirely different axis and we have tragedy.

I fail to see any need to charge the guy for any of this. Somebody else brought up the Chara Pacioretty incident, and it’s a solid comparison. When does it end? A run of the mill tripping call and a player hit the back of his head on the ice. Is the player who committed the infraction liable for this too now?

The whole situation sucks

 

[NeelyDan]

I see this, based on what I am reading here, pretty differently than most. I don't even WANT to feel the way I do, because I'm a guy that had a very, very ....colourful hockey career myself - so I understand deeply the dynamic of in-game decisions that are split second.

I do not think there was one shred of intent or malice.

But I do think it was horrifically reckless, and it caused the death of a human being.

I think a manslaughter charge is warranted. For me, it's more about the sentencing at this point, assuming conviction of course.

 

[Johnnyduke]

"A hockey play"

Sigh

 

[RHR37]

Just hoping they come out with something very quickly that protects the whole body.

At a youth tournament this weekend here two boys collided and one boys leg got cut and blood pooled everywhere.

Luckily the right people were watching and it missed an artery.

 

[PB37]

It’s a hockey play gone horribly bad. The leg was extended to stop the opposing player from passing by, just as it happens often in the NHL. Petgrave made some contact with another player and threw his hips off balance a bit, the extended leg is now on an entirely different axis and we have tragedy.

I fail to see any need to charge the guy for any of this. Somebody else brought up the Chara Pacioretty incident, and it’s a solid comparison. When does it end? A run of the mill tripping call and a player hit the back of his head on the ice. Is the player who committed the infraction liable for this too now?

The whole situation sucks

This wasn't just a normal accident. A man died because of the result of it. Skates have flown up in the air before from players tripped or hip checked but this was different.

He most likely didn't go in with the intent to cut Johnson's throat. My guess is that he felt Johnson was going to blow buy him so he stuck his leg out to go for trip or maybe try to slow him down with it and misjudged how high to lift his leg. Completely reckless play and one that ended someone's life. He deserves harsh punishment.

 

[Donnie Shulzhoffer]

This wasn't just a normal accident. A man died because of the result of it. Skates have flown up in the air before from players tripped or hip checked but this was different.

He most likely didn't go in with the intent to cut Johnson's throat. My guess is that he felt Johnson was going to blow buy him so he stuck his leg out to go for trip or maybe try to slow him down with it and misjudged how high to lift his leg. Completely reckless play and one that ended someone's life. He deserves harsh punishment.

Cannot set aside the history of the player as well.

 

[EvilDead]

The amount of people who have no clue about the sport of hockey that commentate on this have driven me insane. They somehow want to somehow imagine that Petgrave had the ability to control his body and legs in mid air like he was Jet Li or Jackie Chan after appearing to launch himself and had no skates planted on the ice. I think all of us here know how absolutely ridiculous that notion is, given how similar incidents like what happened to Richard Zednik back in the day played out from guys being taken off their feet. In fact, this issue is a lot more prevalent sadly in lower levels of hockey and has caused tragedies that were clearly avoidable.

The amount of people from outside the hockey world who have become walking Dunning Kruger effect dispensers with how they've reacted to this incident stuns and disgusts me. The issue is clear and neck guards need to be mandatory. But unfortunately, what should be a period of morning has been made into a salacious scandal by the British tabloid press and has been picked up in the States as a result.

Long story short: the British press are vultures.

 

[Johnnyduke]

And there are plenty of people with a hockey background who have played/watched the sport for years who can determine that it was a reckless, unnatural act.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

The amount of people who have no clue about the sport of hockey that commentate on this have driven me insane. They somehow want to somehow imagine that Petgrave had the ability to control his body and legs in mid air like he was Jet Li or Jackie Chan after appearing to launch himself and had no skates planted on the ice. I think all of us here know how absolutely ridiculous that notion is, given how similar incidents like what happened to Richard Zednik back in the day played out from guys being taken off their feet. In fact, this issue is a lot more prevalent sadly in lower levels of hockey and has caused tragedies that were clearly avoidable.

The amount of people from outside the hockey world who have become walking Dunning Kruger effect dispensers with how they've reacted to this incident stuns and disgusts me. The issue is clear and neck guards need to be mandatory. But unfortunately, what should be a period of morning has been made into a salacious scandal by the British tabloid press and has been picked up in the States as a result.

Long story short: the British press are vultures.

Difference is Petgrave didnt get submarined or upended to cause his feet to go above shoulder level. It was a shoulder on shoulder bump that didnt even disrupt the other player followed by him reflexively (it appears) kicking his leg up to hit Johnson. Yes, he was not intending to hit him in the neck, but it is still an unnatural and reckless play.

 

[EvilDead]

Welcome to society today. The need for instant gratification and twisting things to fit one's beliefs and predetermined talking points.

People in the US, including myself, are ignorant to way other countries judicial systems work which is why I posted what I did after reading it from reliable hockey writers.


If you're talking about my comment, tag me.

What Fenway posted is no different than what the BBC put out there. The headline is misleading which is what I have an issue with. There are plenty of people who are spreading false information based on the headline alone.

So in England, as a friend of mine that I've been discussing this with has told me, any incident involving a death with another party has to be treated as a manslaughter case and therefore any person that has involvement in it has to be investigate for potential gross negligence. If there's no gross negligence, the party will be released with no charges.

Difference is Petgrave didnt get submarined or upended to cause his feet to go above shoulder level. It was a shoulder on shoulder bump that didnt even disrupt the other player followed by him reflexively (it appears) kicking his leg up to hit Johnson. Yes, he was not intending to hit him in the neck, but it is still an unnatural and reckless play.

If you look at the video again, I think Petgrave may have been attempting a knee on knee hit or a slew foot and that caused his leg to get kicked up.

 

[Johnnyduke]

If you look at the video again, I think Petgrave may have been attempting a knee on knee hit or a slew foot and that caused his leg to get kicked up.

I sure as hell hope that's not gonna be his defense. "Your honor I intended to cheap shot the player but not in the way it ultimately happened!". I've seen the video enough though. I don't see anything on it that would lead to his skate getting that high without him doing it unnaturally. I am curious to see what kind of experts these investigators consulted though. I would be interested in reading that stuff.

 

[KnightofBoston]

Please forgive me for having my own eyes and having my own opinion on what I saw. Again, kudos to the police thus far.

there's nothing to forgive so no need to ask, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as am I regarding the conscious choice to determine outcome without all the facts and knowledge that would lead you to the best decision on that outcome.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

If you look at the video again, I think Petgrave may have been attempting a knee on knee hit or a slew foot and that caused his leg to get kicked up.

agreed, but that doesn't absolve him from legal fault IMO.

I go back to my earlier example in this thread. Someone who drives drunk and kills someone didnt intend to kill but still did through a reckless act and gets charged with manslaughter. It's no different than what happened here, a reckless act outside of the norm caused a death.

that's really what manslaughter is. An accident that caused a death from a reckless or negligent act.

edit: to clarify, Im not saying he should be locked up for years on this either. But a guilty verdict and some form of lighter punishment is warranted IMO

 

[KnightofBoston]

I sure as hell hope that's not gonna be his defense. "Your honor I intended to cheap shot the player but not in the way it ultimately happened!". I've seen the video enough though. I don't see anything on it that would lead to his skate getting that high without him doing it unnaturally. I am curious to see what kind of experts these investigators consulted though. I would be interested in reading that stuff.

this would damn him, because it would demonstrate that he made a conscious choice to take a reckless action that resulted in a death of a human. Doesn't matter if his initial target was another player.

So now we're actually getting closer to the arguments that can or could be made

 

[EvilDead]

agreed, but that doesn't absolve him from legal fault IMO.

I go back to my earlier example in this thread. Someone who drives drunk and kills someone didnt intend to kill but still did through a reckless act and gets charged with manslaughter. It's no different than what happened here, a reckless act outside of the norm caused a death.

that's really what manslaughter is. An accident that caused a death from a reckless or negligent act.

edit: to clarify, Im not saying he should be locked up for years on this either. But a guilty verdict and some form of lighter punishment is warranted IMO

OK that's all well in good, but in the UK thee police and prosecutor need evidence of blatant gross negligence where the incident could've been avoided. Based on the clip alone, one could say it's on the line. But other testimony will come into play as well that could muddy the entire thing. I do think that South Yorkshire police could charge Petgrave with that, and it's also plausible they can negotiate a plea deal.

That said, I am just tired of people who have no care in the world for the sport of hockey acting like this guy tried to karate kick another player in the neck. It was a freak accident that was probably caused by negligent behavior on this guy's part and now he will probably live with a form of consequence attached. I just worry that the tabloids will blow this out of proportion and make it something it's not.

 

[LSCII]

Yeah and if a crewmember shoved another one and they unintentionally fell overboard, they'd be charged

Sure but there’s hitting in hockey, so your example is not on par. There’s also fighting in hockey and nobody gets arrested for assault. If you fight someone out in public, you do. So applying the law for chosen things while ignoring it for others is suspect, imo.

Didn’t the rat Kenny Linseman get charged with attempted murder for kicking a guy back in the 70s or early 80s? I think it was ruled on by the courts as part of the game and a risk a player takes, iicrc.