FourRings
Registered User
The whole notion of "two-year rental" is absurd. Matt Duchene is worth, to me, two firsts and a B-level prospect. No blue-chippers unless we're talking a pretty much straight up deal.
And where did I say that little missy? Typical HF poster, can't actually defend your absurd comments so you gotta make up BS about the other person to take the focus off what the other person has actually said.
Oh so now he's a first line winger, but not a #1 C? Well then, his value to the rest of the league just went down.
Last season he wasn't a first line player at all. Moving forward if you think he's a first line W then you aren't getting the return you think. If you think he's a #1 C then he may have to go out and prove that he can still play like one before you get the value you want.
Duchene plays 1C on a lot of teams in the NHL including CLB,
The whole notion of "two-year rental" is absurd. Matt Duchene is worth, to me, two firsts and a B-level prospect. No blue-chippers unless we're talking a pretty much straight up deal.
I'd agree that he's worth 2 firsts as well as a B level prospect (Ryan Collins ex).
Unfortunately, Av's fans think he's worth double that.
I've certainly had some arguments over the years with the poster you are responding too, but dude, that's a completely demeaning line.
Except Malkin has 1st line numbers.
Except Malkin plays 1st line level defense.
Except Malkin makes the players around him better than they are.
Except Malkin is behind a generational 1st line C, while Duchene is behind a C who isn't that good defensively and hasn't cracked 40 assists.
Pittsburgh does indeed have 2 #1Cs. It's why they won the Cup multiple times.
COL doesn't have 2 #1Cs. If they did they wouldn't have finished last in scoring. I checked, no team that finished last in scoring in the 10 years prior to last year had 2 guys who wold be considered #1Cs. Most didn't even have one #1C. #1Cs make their wings, even crappy ones, good enough to not finish last in goals.
MacKinnon might some day be a #1C but isn't right now. There are certainly questions as to whether Duchene is still a #1C. Sorry, when you are asking for a top4 under 25 D + 1st +a top prospect it's not semantics to argue whether someone is actually a #1C.
It is at the root of the whole point. But I don't need to explain that to you because I know you already realize that.
The whole notion of "two-year rental" is absurd. Matt Duchene is worth, to me, two firsts and a B-level prospect. No blue-chippers unless we're talking a pretty much straight up deal.
I've already been over this with Duchene, but it's the same with MacKinnon. Single one of them out from the Avs, adjust for team scoring and place him on another team. I know it's not perfect, but there's also examples of it holding up so it's a barometer that can be included in an argument. Duchene and MacKinnon could put up first line center production on a team that wasn't a dumpster fire.
And that's absurd as well. If consensus was that Duchene is worth that price then one of the GMs interested would've paid up. All Sakic is doing, and it's his right to do so, is delaying the rebuild of the Avs because the Avs are sure as hell going to be a better team with Duchene than they are without him; but his trade value is dropping by the day REGARDLESS if he returns to form or not, the Avs have seen the best offers they are going to.
“Duchene… some people rip the Avalanche and they say they’re being obstinate. Their perspective is – look, one of the guys Columbus was talking about was Ryan Murray. And I really don’t like where I’m going to go with this because I have a bad feeling it’s going to be totally misinterpreted – because I don’t want to insult Ryan Murray. But the way Colorado looks at it is he is their fifth defenseman. ‘We’re not trading Matt Duchene for a fifth defenseman.’
“Now, I don’t think that Ryan Murray is a fifth defenseman. I think on that team he has become one. And he has become expendable. They look at Werenski. They look at Savard. Look at their trade for Seth Jones. They’ve got a couple of really good young kids coming. They’ve kept their veteran in Jack Johnson.
“So in Columbus’ eyes, Murray has fallen down their depth chart. And I think Colorado looks at that and says, ‘Why are we going to make a deal for a guy – yes, he can help us. But it’s not really hurting them to give him up.’
“And I hope that doesn’t get misconstrued as an insult to Ryan Murray because that’s not what I mean by it. I’m just saying he’s not one of their top D. So I think that’s kind of part of the problem, is they look at it and say, ‘Well we need more than that.’ “
Murray has another season left on his contract at a $2.85 million contract and will be eligible for arbitration next summer.
“Nashville is a really interesting one,” continued Friedman on the Duchene trade front. “I think they’ve asked Nashville for Ekholm. And Nashville doesn’t want to do that. If Colorado was going to make that trade, that’s a heck of a return. After watching Ekholm in the playoffs, holy cow is that guy a great player. Nashville doesn’t want to do that and not only that, but he’s signed to a great contract. So I think they’re just going to hold out here.”
Friedman added one final point on a potential Duchene trade timeline:
“Now, Chris MacFarland – who is the right-hand man of Joe Sakic there in Colorado – he traded Rick Nash on July 23,” the Insider noted. “So he’s patient. He was with Scott Howson when they made that deal and it was July 23, and they waited until they got what they wanted. So I think that Colorado is going to follow the same path.”
Whether or not the description of Avalanche general manager Joe Sakic being perceived as ‘obstinate’ by some is actually accurate or not doesn’t really matter, but right or wrong the widely-held belief is that a Duchene trade has not yet materialized because of Colorado’s asking price.
So what exactly has that asking price been?
There have been two particularly notable tidbits on that front, as provided by a pair of TSN Insiders.
Darren Dreger this week noted Sakic’s asking price is “definitely the holdup,” and that “the ask depends on the team that Joe Sakic is negotiating with, or the team that has expressed interest. I’ve heard that it’s been as high as a couple of first-round picks, or at least a first-round pick and a former first-round draft pick who’s now a young NHL prospect, and then some and then some.”
Dreger indicated that he didn’t blame Sakic for a second, and that the GM was “holding on to a blue-chip asset.”
The most specific description of Sakic’s believed asking price came from Bob McKenzie in February, nearly a month before the trade deadline.
“Everybody knows the price of poker,” said McKenzie at the time. “That is either three high-end pieces or four high-end pieces. By high-end pieces we mean this:
“If it’s three high-end pieces, we’re talking about a player that’s established in the NHL already – between 20-24 years of age – as well as a first-round pick, as well as a top prospect.
“If the young NHL isn’t established, if it’s all prospects, then the price goes up to those four high-end pieces.”
I would agree for any player besides MacKinnon or Duchene. They're good enough that they should be able to carry a line. It's not really a chicken or the egg problem. If offense isn't being generated, you can (and should) look directly at the players who are expected to be the catalysts for that offense. Especially if they're highly touted centers.
Yes, coaching can be an issue. And yes injury can be an issue. But by and large, if a team isn't producing offensively, you need look no further than the top centers. That's their job. And if they aren't doing their jobs then maybe they need to go.
Surely not based on last season's production...
Maybe we won't play the Pittsburgh Penguins?
I would agree for any player besides MacKinnon or Duchene. They're good enough that they should be able to carry a line. It's not really a chicken or the egg problem. If offense isn't being generated, you can (and should) look directly at the players who are expected to be the catalysts for that offense. Especially if they're highly touted centers.
Yes, coaching can be an issue. And yes injury can be an issue. But by and large, if a team isn't producing offensively, you need look no further than the top centers. That's their job. And if they aren't doing their jobs then maybe they need to go.
He's probably looking for something around the lines of Murray+PLD+1st for Duchene and a small +, hence the reason why we haven't seen a deal.
Oh I'm sorry, so we're just supposed to give you Duchene for nothing of any value because he is a hack 41 pts center, who is basically a UFA. If he is so crappy and basically a UFA then why do you want him so badly? Oh that's right because you know he is a good player, who had a down year on a ****** team, and has a sweetheart 6M deal, and he could really improve your team.
This is such a BS cop out argument. We're not at the trade deadline 2 years from now where you'd only get 20ish games+playoffs of Duchene. You get a full two years and the ability to attempt to re-sign him before he even hits UFA.
You're going to have to give something of value to get Duchene, end of of discussion.
Nashville fan chiming in here....
Ryan Murray is a #5 on Columbus
Fair enough
When Columbus traded Johansen to us, Seth Jones was a #5 dman behind Weber/Josi/Ekholm/Ellis
Point being you can't evaluate it on minutes played.
That seemed to work out well for everyone
Nashville fan chiming in here....
Ryan Murray is a #5 on Columbus
Fair enough
When Columbus traded Johansen to us, Seth Jones was a #5 dman behind Weber/Josi/Ekholm/Ellis
Point being you can't evaluate it on minutes played.
That seemed to work out well for everyone
Nashville fan chiming in here....
Ryan Murray is a #5 on Columbus
Fair enough
When Columbus traded Johansen to us, Seth Jones was a #5 dman behind Weber/Josi/Ekholm/Ellis
Point being you can't evaluate it on minutes played.
That seemed to work out well for everyone
I never heard of a straight up swap there Murray/Duchene. I think everyone assumes a 1st would be sent to COL as well. Maybe a decent prospect as well.I think the issue with Murray is more that he regressed tremendously in terms of his advance stats last season (if you put any credence into those numbers) AND, perhaps most importantly, he has a consistent injury history that keeps him off the ice.
For all of Duchene's faults, he seems to be a more proven NHL player at this point and he has been relatively healthy over his career (a few minor injuries).
In my mind, the risk with Murray is that no one really knows what he is, due to usage and/or injury.
I don't think any of this would prevent Murray being traded for Duchene, but a straight up swap seems of unequal value. Another point, I believe that Murray has only one more RFA year to UFA than Duchene.
I never heard of a straight up swap there Murray/Duchene. I think everyone assumes a 1st would be sent to COL as well. Maybe a decent prospect as well.