Matt Barzal vs Mitch Marner

[CodeE]

Ladd and Eberle deserve credit for playing well this year. But it's Barzal that has made them better. He is the catalyst, he is the guy that gets them the puck, he is the guy where the play revolves around. The line is also an elite possession line. Let's face it, Barzal has made these 2 guys better.

No argument from me, Tavares and Barzal are both centers who make their wingers better, just ask Matt Moulson's bank account.

Both guys are willing to let Barzal be the playmaker, Ladd the former captain playing aggressive while Eberle can finish opportunities with his wrister. The team's willingness to show such confidence in Barzal and not try to shelter him in any way is a huge reason he leads rookies in scoring.

 

[93LEAFS]

Lets make a poll when one kid is struggling (but has the significantly better track record) and the other is playing at a likely unsustainable level. Lets see where they are at game 60.

 

[93LEAFS]

This is especially ridiculous for this poll. I agree its too early to tell, but people arent voting barzal bc "leaf hate" or whatever nonsense you want to call it. If you watched him play even once you would know why hes getting so much hype.

Again its early, but barzal is producing at a much higher rate in a much tougher roll.

And Marner was a 60 point player in the NHL when Barzal was mostly riding the pine and then was sent back to Seattle. Marner also had a much better junior career. It may not be Leafs hate, but it has a massive case of recency bias.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Lets make a poll when one kid is struggling (but has the significantly better track record) and the other is playing at a likely unsustainable level. Lets see where they are at game 60.

It's an HF discussion board.
Realistically you can't assess both players until they retire. But that kind of defeats the purpose of the Board.
And there's no certainty that Marner is just struggling and Barzal is playing at an unsustainable pace.
We will see. In the meantime it's an interesting discussion. And at the one third point of the season it's not just recency bias. It's a fairly significant time period although clearly things can change.

 

[Gurilla]

Barzal. The centre over the winger.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Small sample size but I think Barzal is more dominant now than Marner was last year.

 

[PWJunior]

Small sample size but I think Barzal is more dominant now than Marner was last year.

I think Barzal is more dominant than Marner now, isn't that the point of this poll?

 

[Strait2thecup]

And Marner was a 60 point player in the NHL when Barzal was mostly riding the pine and then was sent back to Seattle. Marner also had a much better junior career. It may not be Leafs hate, but it has a massive case of recency bias.

I acknowledged that earlier in the thread...

Glad you're aware that development isnt linear! A lot of the argument you leaf fans keep using is wait til he has 60 points in his rookie year then well talk. If putting the possibility that barzal is better than marner off until the end of the season makes you feel better, go for it.

id hate to tell you but marner would have to go on a huge run while having barzal fall off tremendously for marner to be outperforming him at game 60

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I acknowledged that earlier in the thread...

Glad you're aware that development isnt linear! A lot of the argument you leaf fans keep using is wait til he has 60 points in his rookie year then well talk. If putting the possibility that barzal is better than marner off until the end of the season makes you feel better, go for it

Don't worry about that. They won't be able to point to that mythical 60 point argument soon. If Barzal stays healthy, he should be passing that mark some time this season, with games to spare if he continues improving and playing the way he is. There is little doubt who has been better in the NHL in both years. I do not recall Marner ever being as dominant as Barzal has been this season. And again, he had zero AHL or Pro experience before starting the season at Center. Only the special ones do what he is doing this year. Going straight from junior into a top 2 Center role at a near PPG pace with his outstanding underlying numbers.

 

[93LEAFS]

I acknowledged that earlier in the thread...

Glad you're aware that development isnt linear! A lot of the argument you leaf fans keep using is wait til he has 60 points in his rookie year then well talk. If putting the possibility that barzal is better than marner off until the end of the season makes you feel better, go for it.

id hate to tell you but marner would have to go on a huge run while having barzal fall off tremendously for marner to be outperforming him at game 60

I don't expect him to pass him by game 60 in production this year, but given track record Barzal is going to have to out perform him for a lot more than 27 games to change what I've seen over the last 3 years prior.

 

[Strait2thecup]

I don't expect him to pass him by game 60 in production this year, but given track record Barzal is going to have to out perform him for a lot more than 27 games to change what I've seen over the last 3 years prior.

Which is fair but thats obviously partially due to bias (as I'm biased towards barzal). I think its getting to the point where its more than just a small sample for barzal but this poll will definitely be easier to evaluate at seasons end

 

[Strait2thecup]

Don't worry about that. They won't be able to point to that mythical 60 point argument soon. If Barzal stays healthy, he should be passing that mark some time this season, with games to spare if he continues improving and playing the way he is. There is little doubt who has been better in the NHL in both years. I do not recall Marner ever being as dominant as Barzal has been this season. And again, he had zero AHL or Pro experience before starting the season at Center. Only the special ones do what he is doing this year. Going straight from junior into a top 2 Center role at a near PPG pace with his outstanding underlying numbers.

Yup marner definitely wasnt as dominant at any point last season as barzal has been for the first 3rd of this one. Its just an HF thing though. We're all skeptical of everybody else's prospects except our own

I know you've always been a huge barzal supporter as have I. Glad he's on such a good path

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Yup marner definitely wasnt as dominant at any point last season as barzal has been for the first 3rd of this one. Its just an HF thing though. We're all skeptical of everybody else's prospects except our own

I know you've always been a huge barzal supporter as have I. Glad he's on such a good path

Barzal has gotten more attention of late by opposing teams, I always make it a point to watch the Isles as much as I can this year due to Barzal. And he is still looking great. You guys have a great young team with a terrific coach. So it's really easy for me to make these observations. It would take an injury(knock wood)to derail Barzal this year. Or as I said earlier as I have seen with a lot of rookies they get tired as the season gets longer. I do know Barzal has trained hard in the off season, and he came to camp prepared to make the team. Then he was determined to stick with the team. Now he is determined on making a difference on the Isles. I don't think enough can be said for how he has made both Eberle and Ladd more effective players this season. Just too much natural talent to fall off the cliff. He will pass that mythical 60 point line set for him at some point this season if he stays god willing(knock wood, cross fingers) healthy. At what game is just the question?

 

[Pyrophorus]

This should not be as lopsided as it is. It's the perfect case of one player being on fire and the other having a somewhat down year. What Barzal has done so far in pretty incredible, I highly doubt he keeps up the point per game pace for the entire season. I see Barzal finishing the year similar to what Marner did last year. Both should finish with 60ish points.

This is coming from someone who really likes Barzal too. I've been tuning into the Isles games lately to watch him play, and he is electrifying at times. It will be interesting to see if he can keep it up.

Just like Boeser, lets wait until next year.

This is indisputable, Boeser and Barzal are hot, Marner is not.

 

[cneely]

I haven't watched the last few Leafs games. Is Marner looking better?
I'm actually shocked at his play this year. He's on pace for 6 goals and 47 points.

 

[firstemperor]

I haven't watched the last few Leafs games. Is Marner looking better?
I'm actually shocked at his play this year. He's on pace for 6 goals and 47 points.

He's looked good->very good for close to a month now. He definitely had some struggles early on, particularly because he was so weak on the boards (along with Bozak being useless most of the year)- such that his line would rarely have possession/o-zone time. Points aren't exactly coming easily for him. I'm not complaining, as his talent level is quite evident, and the optimistic notion is that it may bring down the value of a pending extension.

The reality is, there's a lot of recency marred in this debate. For half a season last year, Marner looked as equally productive as Matthews (obviously, it's not even remotely a debate now).

 

[GrandmaSlices51631]

Eye test with or without homer goggles says Barzal.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Barzal has really impressed me.. kid skates circles around everyone. Fun to watch.

And so far this year, i think he's been better than Marner last year.

I don't see any reason why he couldn't become a star center in this league. Marner would have to do a lot to top that as a winger.

I don't usually hold too much stock on 25 games or so, but Barzal is the one of the bigger stories for me so far this year. Huge reason why the Isles are a very good team.

 

[cneely]

He's looked good->very good for close to a month now. He definitely had some struggles early on, particularly because he was so weak on the boards (along with Bozak being useless most of the year)- such that his line would rarely have possession/o-zone time. Points aren't exactly coming easily for him. I'm not complaining, as his talent level is quite evident, and the optimistic notion is that it may bring down the value of a pending extension.

The reality is, there's a lot of recency marred in this debate. For half a season last year, Marner looked as equally productive as Matthews (obviously, it's not even remotely a debate now).

So he's been a little snake bit.
His size was always something that concerned me a bit, so its really not that surprising to see some growing pains as he figures out how to use his skill to compensate.

 

[firstemperor]

So he's been a little snake bit.
His size was always something that concerned me a bit, so its really not that surprising to see some growing pains as he figures out how to use his skill to compensate.

Bozak's game has fallen off a cliff this year....and he's always been a legitimately horrific possession player.....one of the potential issues is Babs mostly has Bozak tied to Marner's hip everywhere he goes (even when he gets shift on 3v3 OT).

He's getting better every game, earlier in the year- there was virtually a 0% chance Marner on the boards would recover the puck. Now, he's been winning 1 on 1 battles with more regularity.....really, I'm not sure if this is a Marner thing or just a in-game growing process thing (given he has some history of being a slow starter going back to Junior). His playmaking/creativity and skill are always on full display....there's not many players in this league (and definitely on the Leafs) with the vision, creativity he has. But definitely, there are in-game adjustments he has to make...right now, every team expects him to pass, 95% of the time. Him and Nylander have definitely been incredibly snakebitten though.

If you value other metrics beyond basic stats like points, guys like Marner and Nylander are some of the best zone entry guys in the league. Either way, I'm not too worried- as I've said before, every rookie/prospect (Matthews is likely one of the rare exceptions) will have to go through growing pains as they are game-planned on. I expect Marner, as he has done so far, to make the necessary in-game adjustments to continue to elevate his game....the process has to be organic.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

Lets compare a kid on one of the hottest lines in the league to a kid on a cold line and 4th line.

This is just moronic to even have an opinion in and the obvious candidates are slowly trickling in.

So it is similar to when the Leafs defense was compared to the Oilers defense when the Oilers started off terrible and the leafs started off hot - and you decided to give your opinion on that, much to the favor of the Leafs.

Doesnt seem fair now does it?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Bozak's game has fallen off a cliff this year....and he's always been a legitimately horrific possession player.....one of the potential issues is Babs mostly has Bozak tied to Marner's hip everywhere he goes (even when he gets shift on 3v3 OT).

He's getting better every game, earlier in the year- there was virtually a 0% chance Marner on the boards would recover the puck. Now, he's been winning 1 on 1 battles with more regularity.....really, I'm not sure if this is a Marner thing or just a in-game growing process thing (given he has some history of being a slow starter going back to Junior). His playmaking/creativity and skill are always on full display....there's not many players in this league (and definitely on the Leafs) with the vision, creativity he has. But definitely, there are in-game adjustments he has to make...right now, every team expects him to pass, 95% of the time. Him and Nylander have definitely been incredibly snakebitten though.

If you value other metrics beyond basic stats like points, guys like Marner and Nylander are some of the best zone entry guys in the league. Either way, I'm not too worried- as I've said before, every rookie/prospect (Matthews is likely one of the rare exceptions) will have to go through growing pains as they are game-planned on. I expect Marner, as he has done so far, to make the necessary in-game adjustments to continue to elevate his game....the process has to be organic.

That's fine if you want to blame Bozak for Marner's lack of scoring. But it wouldn't explain why or excuse Marner when JVR is having one of his most productive years with Bozak as his center tied for a team lead in goals with 13. I find the finger pointing towards other players too convenient for posters wanting to excuse more favourite players. Marner just needs to learn to finish better. He's had chances, but has been lacking finish. This is the main reason. Not the excuse you made for him.

 

[DFF]

One has played 25 nhl games and the other put up 60+pts in his rookie year.
Unless someone here has a crystal ball, I'll leave it at that.

One is obviously better now.

Current data is always more accurate....who cares about the past if we have today to look at.

 

[nucks88]

Barzal in a f***ing walk!

 

[Halla]

another overreaction poll. lets see Barzal top 60pts this year as a 20yr old while remembering he was born the same month as mitch