Value of: Marco Rossi +

[Captain Mountain]

Alright - thats one Habs fan's opinion.

...I think you'd be hard pressed to find many (if any) Habs fans that would swap Dach for Rossi one for one.

 

[Baksfamous112]

He's also repeatedly stated that his proposal was contingent on additions to Rossi, which hasn't been addressed once.

"Looking to get into the top 5 IDEALLY".

It appears as though most people just decided Rossi isn't worth a top 5 pick, discussion over." without even trying to discuss anything.

Alright but what are you adding to Rossi to bridge the gap? This isn’t NHL24 when you can add a bunch of mid assets to meet a certain value point where the other team just end up doing it. To me, the only guy that MIN has that could land them a top 5 pick is Boldy

 

[nbwingsfan]

As I said in the rest of the post if you read past the Rossi + 2024 3rd rounder - The plus is up for negotiation....

So - what would it take in your opinion?

Keep in mind - Rossi is a 22 year old rookie C with 20 goals and 17 assists so far this year.

He is what you hope a top 5 pick does in his Rookie year.

sure, but you’d also hope your top 5pick iant having his rookie year in his D+4.

Rossi was also viewed as more NHL ready than most prospects, so I’m not sure how much more potential he has.

Either way look at who’s drafting in the top 5.
Chicago, Anaheim, CBJ, SJ, Ottawa most likely.

Who’s giving up their pick for Rossi? Maybe Ottawa?

 

[AKL]

Not exactly. With a top 5 pick you're mostly looking at a building block asset. first liner center, top pairing D or elite wingers. Below average 2C at 22 is not exactly what you expect from a top 5 draft pick, sorry

Let's look at those mystery boxes since Rossi was drafted and let's see how many of them you take before Rossi:

2020:

1. Lafreniere - Yes
2. Byfield - Yes
3. Stutzle - Yes
4. Raymond - Yes
5. Sanderson - Yes

2021:

1. Powers - Yes
2. Beniers - Yes
3. McTavish - Yes
4. Hughes - Yes
5. Johnson - Debatable but I think I take Johnson although I could argue Rossi is move proven

2022:

1. Slafkovsky - Yes
2. Nemec - Yes
3. Cooley - Yes
4. Wright - No
5. Gauthier - Yes

2023:

1. Bedard - Yes
2. Carlsson - yes
3. Fantilli - Yes
4. Smith - Yes
5. Reinbacher - Yes

Those mystery boxes usually end up much, much better than a guy like Rossi would so you can understand why people would value those much more than a complimentary piece like Rossi.


Even if you value him as a top 6 center, no one is ditching out a top 5 pick for him. No one.

2019:
1. Hughes - Yes
2. Kakko - No
3. Dach - No
4. Byram - 50/50
5. Turcotte - No

2018:
1. Dahlin - Yes
2. Svechnikov - Yes
3. Kotkaniemi - No
4. Tkachuk - Yes
5. Hayton - No

2017:
1. Hischier - Yes
2. Patrick - No
3. Heiskanen - Yes
4. Makar - Yes
5. Pettersson - Yes

2016:
1. Matthews - Yes
2. Laine - Yes
3. Dubois - No
4. Puljujarvi - No
5. Juolevi - No

A lot more no's when you take out your bias for how these players project

And of course you're only looking at top 5 picks, which you also claim is entirely unrealistic, so maybe you'd be better served looking at picks 6-10? I imagine you'll find even more no's there.

And even looking at what we have here, the yes's are being carried by top 2 picks. Even if you look at picks 3-5, there's a higher proportion of no's.

 

[roon]

sure, but you’d also hope your top 5pick iant having his rookie year in his D+4.

Rossi was also viewed as more NHL ready than most prospects, so I’m not sure how much more potential he has.

Either way look at who’s drafting in the top 5.
Chicago, Anaheim, CBJ, SJ, Ottawa most likely.

Who’s giving up their pick for Rossi? Maybe Ottawa?

Rossi was viewed as more NHL ready? We talking about the same kid that had Myocarditis and lost effectively 2 years of development?

 

[YP44]

2019:
1. Hughes - Yes
2. Kakko - No
3. Dach - No
4. Byram - 50/50
5. Turcotte - No

2018:
1. Dahlin - Yes
2. Svechnikov - Yes
3. Kotkaniemi - No
4. Tkachuk - Yes
5. Hayton - No

2017:
1. Hischier - Yes
2. Patrick - No
3. Heiskanen - Yes
4. Makar - Yes
5. Pettersson - Yes

2016:
1. Matthews - Yes
2. Laine - Yes
3. Dubois - No
4. Puljujarvi - No
5. Juolevi - No

A lot more no's when you take out your bias for how these players project

And of course you're only looking at top 5 picks, which you also claim is entirely unrealistic, so maybe you'd be better served looking at picks 6-10? I imagine you'll find even more no's there.

And even looking at what we have here, the yes's are being carried by top 2 picks. Even if you look at picks 3-5, there's a higher proportion of no's.

Bold please

 

[roon]

Alright but what are you adding to Rossi to bridge the gap? This isn’t NHL24 when you can add a bunch of mid assets to meet a certain value point where the other team just end up doing it. To me, the only guy that MIN has that could land them a top 5 pick is Boldy

Boldy isn't really available, but if he was its top 5 pick in 2024 ++.

 

[Baksfamous112]

2019:
1. Hughes - Yes
2. Kakko - No
3. Dach - No
4. Byram - 50/50
5. Turcotte - No

2018:
1. Dahlin - Yes
2. Svechnikov - Yes
3. Kotkaniemi - No
4. Tkachuk - Yes
5. Hayton - No

2017:
1. Hischier - Yes
2. Patrick - No
3. Heiskanen - Yes
4. Makar - Yes
5. Pettersson - Yes

2016:
1. Matthews - Yes
2. Laine - Yes
3. Dubois - No
4. Puljujarvi - No
5. Juolevi - No

A lot more no's when you take out your bias for how these players project

And of course you're only looking at top 5 picks, which you also claim is entirely unrealistic, so maybe you'd be better served looking at picks 6-10? I imagine you'll find even more no's there.

I would take Dubois, Dach, Byram way before Rossi but let’s keep them out. That’s still 29/40 players over the last 8 years - or 73%. 80% if you take these 3 I mentioned above instead of Rossi.

Your odds are still heavily favored over the magic bean rather than your below to average top 6 center

 

[YP44]

I would take Dubois, Dach, Byram way before Rossi but let’s keep them out. That’s still 29/40 players over the last 8 years - or 73%. 80% if you take these 3 I mentioned above instead of Rossi.

Your odds are still heavily favored over the magic bean rather than your below to average top 6 center

Wait...you would take Dubois over Rossi?

I hope there is a GM out there who thinks like you.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Wait...you would take Dubois over Rossi?

I hope there is a GM out there who thinks like you.

Who wouldn’t?

 

[roon]

I would take Dubois, Dach, Byram way before Rossi but let’s keep them out. That’s still 29/40 players over the last 8 years - or 73%. 80% if you take these 3 I mentioned above instead of Rossi.

Your odds are still heavily favored over the magic bean rather than your below to average top 6 center

When you say below average - do you mean below average for a Rookie in his first pro season? What are you measuring him against as a Top 6 C?

He is 4th in Rookie points behind Bedard, Faber and Hughes.....

 

[AKL]

I would take Dubois, Dach, Byram way before Rossi but let’s keep them out. That’s still 29/40 players over the last 8 years - or 73%. 80% if you take these 3 I mentioned above instead of Rossi.

Your odds are still heavily favored over the magic bean rather than your below to average top 6 center

Except you're still using projections for a lot of your yes's, while ignoring Rossi's chance for progression?

Again though, you've been telling everyone who will listen that a top 5 pick is entirely unreasonable, so fine, do this again for picks 6-10 and see what it looks like. Or if you want to compromise, we can look at it for picks 4-6. Even in the 4-6 range it's a lot closer to 50/50, if not more in favor of Rossi.

 

[YP44]

Who wouldn’t?

Myself, if Blake could trade Dubois for Rossi one for one and did not do he would be the dumbest GM out there. Would add a fair bit on LAs side.

 

[Baksfamous112]

When you say below average - do you mean below average for a Rookie in his first pro season? What are you measuring him against as a Top 6 C?

He is 4th in Rookie points behind Bedard, Faber and Hughes.....

I personally don’t consider a 22 years old rookie. Just because he couldn’t crack the NHL until he was 22 doesn’t make him a rookie and yes, he’s currently performing as a below-average 2C

Except you're still using projections for a lot of your yes's, while ignoring Rossi's chance for progression?

Again though, you've been telling everyone who will listen that a top 5 pick is entirely unreasonable, so fine, do this again for picks 6-10 and see what it looks like. Or if you want to compromise, we can look at it for picks 4-6. Even in the 4-6 range it's a lot closer to 50/50, if not more in favor of Rossi.

I’m using projections for the 18-19 years old - although most of them are already outpacing Rossi at the NHL level because well, they’re 18-19 and not 22? I’m not so sure what’s wrong with that. I'm pretty sure if MIN had a top 5 pick this year you would be against acquiring a 22 years old who just entered the league and is pacing for 40-45 points. Let's not act like you would jump on that.

Look, I’m not necessarily arguing against a 6-10 pick. If one team wants to ditch it out for Rossi then good for them, but I highly doubt it. I just don't think he has that kind of value and his height doesn't help him either. If we look at recent trade comp. he would be somewhere in between Dach and Newhook value and neither got close to a top 10 pick.

 

[AKL]

personally don’t consider a 22 years old rookie. Just because he couldn’t crack the NHL until he was 22 doesn’t make him a rookie and yes, he’s currently performing as a below-average 2C

You personally are just flat out wrong, and trying to paradigm shift the universally agreed definition doesn't make your argument intelligent.

I’m using projections for the 18-19 years old - although most of them are already outpacing Rossi at the NHL level because well, they’re 18-19 and not 22? I’m not so sure what’s wrong with that.

Look, I’m not necessarily arguing against a 6-10 pick. If one team wants to ditch it out for Rossi then good for them, but I highly doubt it. I just don't think he has that kind of value and his height doesn't help him either. If we look at recent trade comp. he would be somewhere in between Dach and Newhook value and neither got close to a top 10 pick.

I've also never advocated for trading Rossi so I don't care what you think his value is. The point is that the picks we're discussing in this thread are very much mystery boxes.

 

[Baksfamous112]

You personally are just flat out wrong, and trying to paradigm shift the universally agreed definition doesn't make your argument intelligent.

I've also never advocated for trading Rossi so I don't care what you think his value is. The point is that the picks we're discussing in this thread are very much mystery boxes.

Except they aren’t. A top 5 pick is rarely a mystery box.

Anyway, I might be wrong but we’re discussing the value of Rossi for top 5 pick here. He’s not available, we get it. No one expect him to be, but if we’re not going to discuss his value then what’s the point of this thread?

I mean, if push come to shove I could easily say Suzuki would get us a top 5, maybe even better pick. Doesn’t mean we’re looking to trade him hence the point of discussing a player’s value.

Edit: Don’y worry, anything we say here has no impact on real life.

 

[Kielbasa]

Not exactly. With a top 5 pick you're mostly looking at a building block asset. first liner center, top pairing D or elite wingers. Below average 2C at 22 is not exactly what you expect from a top 5 draft pick, sorry

Let's look at those mystery boxes since Rossi was drafted and let's see how many of them you take before Rossi:

2020:

1. Lafreniere - Yes
2. Byfield - Yes
3. Stutzle - Yes
4. Raymond - Yes
5. Sanderson - Yes

2021:

1. Powers - Yes
2. Beniers - Yes
3. McTavish - Yes
4. Hughes - Yes
5. Johnson - Debatable but I think I take Johnson although I could argue Rossi is move proven

2022:

1. Slafkovsky - Yes
2. Nemec - Yes
3. Cooley - Yes
4. Wright - No
5. Gauthier - Yes

2023:

1. Bedard - Yes
2. Carlsson - yes
3. Fantilli - Yes
4. Smith - Yes
5. Reinbacher - Yes

Those mystery boxes usually end up much, much better than a guy like Rossi would so you can understand why people would value those much more than a complimentary piece like Rossi.


Even if you value him as a top 6 center, no one is ditching out a top 5 pick for him. No one.

I think Rossi could get a 6-10 pick, but I'm too lazy to do what you did to see if it would be worth it.

 

[BondraTime]

Flames would

Would make sense, Flames haven’t been too smart lately.

 

[Baksfamous112]

I think Rossi could get a 6-10 pick, but I'm too lazy to do what you did to see if it would be worth it.

I could see the argument for it although recent comp show us he would most likely get a mid (11-17) rather than a top 10

 

[Digitalbooya]

I would rather move Ek than Rossi at this point.

Comical.

 

[AKL]

Except they aren’t. A top 5 pick is rarely a mystery box.

Anyway, I might be wrong but we’re discussing the value of Rossi for top 5 pick here. He’s not available, we get it. No one expect him to be, but if we’re not going to discuss his value then what’s the point of this thread?

I mean, if push come to shove I could easily say Suzuki would get us a top 5, maybe even better pick. Doesn’t mean we’re looking to trade him hence the point of discussing a player’s value.

Edit: Don’y worry, anything we say here has no impact on real life.

You're not really discussing value at this point. You were doing that earlier when you said Rossi+ doesn't get a top 5 pick.

You keep ignoring the fact that picks 4-6 and 6-10, where this pick would more likely end up, is far less of a "sure thing", and you're insistent on skewing your data with top 2-3 picks, which 1) no one here, including OP, thinks is realistic and 2) everyone here, including myself, would trade Rossi for in a heartbeat. When we say top 5 pick, we're talking about 5th overall, not 1st overall, so the only reason to include 1st overall picks in your math is to be dishonest in your calculations.

I could see the argument for it although recent comp show us he would most likely get a mid (11-17) rather than a top 10

And you keep bringing up the Dach and Newhook trades, you may be forgetting that when Dach was traded he was coming with major concerns related to a significant injury he had, and he hadn't shown as much as Rossi has in the NHL. Look at that, he's missed the entire season again with an injury. If you want to use those as a comp, Rossi gets more than Dach did.

 

[Baksfamous112]

You're not really discussing value at this point. You were doing that earlier when you said Rossi+ doesn't get a top 5 pick.

You keep ignoring the fact that picks 4-6 and 6-10, where this pick would more likely end up, is far less of a "sure thing", and you're insistent on skewing your data with top 2-3 picks, which 1) no one here, including OP, thinks is realistic and 2) everyone here, including myself, would trade Rossi for in a heartbeat. When we say top 5 pick, we're talking about 5th overall, not 1st overall, so the only reason to include 1st overall picks in your math is to be dishonest in your calculations.



And you keep bringing up the Dach and Newhook trades, you may be forgetting that when Dach was traded he was coming with major concerns related to a significant injury he had, and he hadn't shown as much as Rossi has in the NHL. Look at that, he's missed the entire season again with an injury. If you want to use those as a comp, Rossi gets more than Dach did.

Fair. I actually think his best comp is Newhook. Similar career path, stats, talent & age. He got #31 and #38 if I remember properly? Technically, shouldn’t he have returned a top 10 pick?

 

[Digitalbooya]

Fair. I actually think his best comp is Newhook. Similar career path, stats, talent & age. He got #31 and #38 if I remember properly? Technically, shouldn’t he have returned a top 10 pick?

Newhook is such a garbage comp. What are you talking about?

 

[Baksfamous112]

Newhook is such a garbage comp. What are you talking about?

And why is that?

 

[f7ben]

Comical.

Rossi fits the core age , Ek is at the upper end of it. Ek has more value. This team isn’t competing for anything next year. They arent really even a bubble team.