Confirmed with Link: Maple Leafs & AGM Mark Hunter Part Ways, Effective Immediately

[Daisy Jane]

This being framed as Hunter only leaving because he didn't get the job is getting a bit ridiculous. He left because he didn't like the direction Dubas was going to take the organization, and they don't like each other (regardless of what is said in the media at a press conference).

Mirtle's article showed how much Dubas respected Mark Hunters scouting ability, regardless of how much lip-service he pays to him. Why would you want to stay at a place where your draft board had relative autonomy, and the new promoted guy (who you competed with the job for) comes in on day one and dramatically alters the draft board you have worked on for 10 months?

what?

 

[Kiwi]

This being framed as Hunter only leaving because he didn't get the job is getting a bit ridiculous. He left because he didn't like the direction Dubas was going to take the organization, and they don't like each other (regardless of what is said in the media at a press conference).

Mirtle's article showed how much Dubas respected Mark Hunters scouting ability, regardless of how much lip-service he pays to him. Why would you want to stay at a place where your draft board had relative autonomy, and the new promoted guy (who you competed with the job for) comes in on day one and dramatically alters the draft board you have worked on for 10 months?

Yeah this was never going to end well

It was a one or the other situation, we were never going to end up with both guys and I doubt there philosophies, personnel choices or general outlook would have ever made for a good working relationship either

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

Why is the Saskatoon country bumpkin still here? If that dumb a** doesn’t wanna leave just kick him.

 

[93LEAFS]

what?

Mirtle stated the Leafs draft strategy and draft board was dramatically changed since Dubas was hired.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Mirtle stated the Leafs draft strategy and draft board was dramatically changed since Dubas was hired.

no not that, but thanks for that. (but I wonder how Mirtle knows all of that anyhoo).
but how do you know they didn't like each other?

 

[93LEAFS]

no not that, but thanks for that. (but I wonder how Mirtle knows all of that anyhoo).
but how do you know they didn't like each other?

The same way I knew in November that Hunter would quit if he didn't get the job, and it wasn't just rooted in being passed over.

Mirtle knows this because someone leaked it to him, most likely Dubas or someone on his side. As Mirtle has pretty clearly been giving Dubas favorable press for a while, and Mirtle has also been getting solid breaks on story's he didn't get previously. Writers tend to help there sources out, which is why sources give info.

Why do you think Bob McKenzie seriously supports Mike Futa when there has never been really serious interest in him. There are other guys along the same lines.

Just for reference sake. Here is where I said Hunter would quit in November. This isn't something that I just recently heard, and everything else has turned out to be fairly accurate. Obviously, I was wrong on expecting the organization to side with Lou on his successor, which is why Dubas won out.

I'm telling you right now, Hunter won't work under Dubas. He's loaded and not in it for the money. He'll quit and go back to London.

 

[Bomber0104]

Mirtle stated the Leafs draft strategy and draft board was dramatically changed since Dubas was hired.

I wouldn't be surprised at all.

I have no doubt Mark Hunter probably has one of the best, if not the best understanding of the talent pool in the OHL / CHL. What I've always questioned myself is if Hunter knows how well this OHL / CHL talent will carry over into the NHL.

This is after all the name of the game. We aren't interested in finding the best junior players. We want the best future NHL players.

I'm not thrilled about Dubas taking over but I'm definitely not losing sleep over losing Hunter at the same time. Both are unproven.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Marner was also the better analytics player by possession numbers, which makes the question confusing. Marner converted at a high rate, while Nylander's 5v5 conversion rate is unlikely to hold. The hope for Nylander and Matthews numbers not to decrease next year is that they convert more on the powerplay and an increase in ice-time on the powerplay, off-sets a lowered oiSH% at 5v5 (as a massive growth in 5v5 ice-time is unlikely).

Edit: Just saw your other response, I like it.

Also: There's no such thing as a good 'analytics player via possession stats', what on earth does that even mean Just say good possession player.

Answer to question #2
So funny the disappearing player is not a better player in any way. He played with a superior line mate and yet still finished behind him in scoring. One is player who competes hard the other is a perimeter player who has been found wanting when the games get rough. Analytics fails in one major way as there is no way to measure will and desire. Marner is clearly the better player and a very easy choice.

Exactly, Marner is the clear choice. But analytics does not fail in that regard, because working hard doesn't mean squat if you work dumb. If you work hard and smart, analytics shows you the postive result. In Marner's case, analytics showed Marner to be the better player despite Nylander being the better possession player (Again, to clarify I meant last year as in 2016-2017).

 

[Daisy Jane]

The same way I knew in November that Hunter would quit if he didn't get the job, and it wasn't just rooted in being passed over.

Mirtle knows this because someone leaked it to him, most likely Dubas or someone on his side. As Mirtle has pretty clearly been giving Dubas favorable press for a while, and Mirtle has also been getting solid breaks on story's he didn't get previously. Writers tend to help there sources out, which is why sources give info.

Why do you think Bob McKenzie seriously supports Mike Futa when there has never been really serious interest in him. There are other guys along the same lines.

Just for reference sake. Here is where I said Hunter would quit in November. This isn't something that I just recently heard, and everything else has turned out to be fairly accurate. Obviously, I was wrong on expecting the organization to side with Lou on his successor, which is why Dubas won out.

oh i see.
thanks.

 

[Menzinger]

This being framed as Hunter only leaving because he didn't get the job is getting a bit ridiculous. He left because he didn't like the direction Dubas was going to take the organization, and they don't like each other (regardless of what is said in the media at a press conference).

Mirtle's article showed how much Dubas respected Mark Hunters scouting ability, regardless of how much lip-service he pays to him. Why would you want to stay at a place where your draft board had relative autonomy, and the new promoted guy (who you competed with the job for) comes in on day one and dramatically alters the draft board you have worked on for 10 months?

And the flip side of course is a new GM isn’t going to want a head scout whose reluctant/unwilling to get behind the new direction of the team. Likely the reason it seems Shanny/Dubas didn’t feel Hunter needed to stay with the team until the draft.

Two different guys, two seemingly different visions for the team. Now just need to wait and see if the right call was made.

What will be Interesting to follow is that this will likely be the most cohesive management group leafs have had now since Shanahan came on board. No longer will be there be a high degree of isolated compartmentalization between the different departments of the team

Edit: clarification/typo

 

[93LEAFS]

And the flip side of course is a new GM isn’t going to want a head scout whose reluctant/unwilling to get behind the new direction of the team. Likely the reason it seems Shanny/Dubas didn’t feel Hunter needed to stay with the team until the draft.

Two different guys, two seemingly different visions for the team. Now just need to wait and see if the right call was made.

What will be Interesting to follow is that this will likely be the most cohesive management group leafs have had now since Shanahan came on board. No longer will be there be a high degree of isolated compartmentalization between the different departments of the team

Edit: clarification/typo

What would make it really interesting (in a drama sense) is if Mark Hunter lands on the Isles as either head of scouting/AGM or the outright GM.

I think the compartmentalization is a bit overplayed. I never got the sense Lou, Hunter, Babs, and Pridham were compartmentalized. Hunter was always on the road, so he's not interacting everyday with people, but he had a strong open dialogue with at least Lou (who oversaw the complete NHL operation). Dubas was isolated to a corner. Partially fueled by him being removed from having any say on the draft by Lou, and partially due to the fact Lou runs his team the way he sees fit. Dubas had close to full autonomy in running the Marlies (outside of the fact there staff had to shave and dress to Lou's standard, even the people in marketing), he still had to play the guys we drafted but he was free to fill the non-Leafs contract spots however he wanted.

Edit: It absolutely is a mutual decision and a relationship that wasn't going to work. I don't like losing Hunter, but I also don't think Hunter under Dubas would have worked.

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

Interesting off season so far amongst the leafs brass and with ovechkins first Stanley cup final appearance along with the golden knights.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Analytics fails in one major way as there is no way to measure will and desire.

That's only true if will and desire has no impact on how well the player impacts the quantity and quality of chances, or pretty much any other area of the game that gets measured.

 

[Pookie]

That's only true if will and desire has no impact on how well the player impacts the quantity and quality of chances, or pretty much any other area of the game that gets measured.

So it’s true then

 

[diceman934]

That's only true if will and desire has no impact on how well the player impacts the quantity and quality of chances, or pretty much any other area of the game that gets measured.

My statement is true you can not measure desire and will and it is always be true there is no exceptions.

 

[SprDaVE]

My statement is true you can not measure desire and will and it is always be true there is no exceptions.

It's almost like player evaluation has so many factors that come into play that one way of looking at a player isn't full proof.

This is why it's great to look and understand every available tool in player evaluation to make the best possible decision for your team. It's pretty simple.

With that said, if you tell me a player is great defensively and has the best "will and desire" of the NHL, there better be some reflection of that in terms of impact on the ice. I don't care how much will and desire you have if you can't make a pass or have a positive impact with the minutes you receive.

 

[Nithoniniel]

My statement is true you can not measure desire and will and it is always be true there is no exceptions.

Analytics are not trying to measure desire and will. They are only interested in their impact on the ice. If they have an impact on the ice, they will show up in the numbers. If desire and will makes a player win more board battles, he'll have more board battles won. If desire and will help you create more and better chances, it will show up in scoring chance metrics.

You might as well say that analytics does not measure speed, or any other attribute a player may have. It's just as true, but they are not interested in how fast a player skates, they are interested in how much it helps him impact the game.

 

[diceman934]

Analytics are not trying to measure desire and will. They are only interested in their impact on the ice. If they have an impact on the ice, they will show up in the numbers. If desire and will makes a player win more board battles, he'll have more board battles won. If desire and will help you create more and better chances, it will show up in scoring chance metrics.

You might as well say that analytics does not measure speed, or any other attribute a player may have. It's just as true, but they are not interested in how fast a player skates, they are interested in how much it helps him impact the game.

If analytics could measure will and desire they would!
lol I clearly said that you can not messure compete level and you can not as it is not measurable. It they could measure it they would!

Tell me where I can find the stats that shows a player who in key games will jump in from of pucks to help his team win. Just where can I find that stat?

As well where can I find the analytics data that shows how hard a player competes in practice?

Sorry but not all things are measurable when talking about hockey players as not all are wired the same.

 

[kyle n00bas]

Tell me where I can find the stats that shows a player who in key games will jump in from of pucks to help his team win. Just where can I find that stat?

blocked shots

 

[diceman934]

blocked shots

Wrong as the data only shows that a puck hit a player.

Did you watch the game last night and see what Smith Pelly did. Not measurable

 

[Liminality]

Analytics are not trying to measure desire and will. They are only interested in their impact on the ice. If they have an impact on the ice, they will show up in the numbers. If desire and will makes a player win more board battles, he'll have more board battles won. If desire and will help you create more and better chances, it will show up in scoring chance metrics.

You might as well say that analytics does not measure speed, or any other attribute a player may have. It's just as true, but they are not interested in how fast a player skates, they are interested in how much it helps him impact the game.

I'm sure we'll soon have full tracking on players to see their real time top speed, acceleration and ice covered during the game. Maybe that'll be one way you can track hustle and determination.

 

[diceman934]

I'm sure we'll soon have full tracking on players to see their real time top speed, acceleration and ice covered during the game. Maybe that'll be one way you can track hustle and determination.

Well you attempt at mocking was a fail as they have already measure speed in games a long while ago.

 

[The CyNick]

no not that, but thanks for that. (but I wonder how Mirtle knows all of that anyhoo).
but how do you know they didn't like each other?

He makes a lot of stuff up from what I hear.

 

[Gary Nylund]

He makes a lot of stuff up from what I hear.

It's not polite to share pillow talk on the internet.

Edit - Never mind, if you were just talking to yourself it's OK.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

So, curious as to how people felt about Hunter's performance? Do you feel he did a good job?

The idea that he wasn't good in rounds 2 - 7 is floating around.

Are there any statistics about how many of Hunter's picks graduated and how that compares to the average graduation rate?