Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[RobertKron]

Im upset because the discussion on these forums has become so bogged down in these two concepts...

I dont mind the trade.

I just find that there are people who defend what ever the management does. You cannot at the same time believe:

- 5th round picks are worthless
- the player just traded for a 5th rounder is worth something

I think the belief is that they're worthless until you do something with them. Yes, you can always hold on for a better deal, but it's not like you're earning interest on it just sitting on it.

 

[arttk]

That’s largely going to be a function of Cole, Soucy, Hronek, Blueger, etc.

The difference between Sam Lafferty and Jack Studnicka (or Jack Studnicka and say Phil DiGiuseppe last year) certainly isn’t. If it did then good PK forwards would be the biggest market inefficiency in the NHL.

I think having a rhc that can actually take face off vs one that can’t is a big difference when it comes to the PK.
Also having a guy that can push Miller off the PK should not be underestimated.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

DeSmith is an underrated add

Martin was unplayable last season and Demko was mostly injured

We weren’t good defensively but we also didn’t have good goaltending for a big chunk of the season


I don’t believe 5th round pick is worthless, I believe that 5th round pick is worthless for most GMs in the league because they don’t have much job security.

Lafferty is clearly worth something otherwise he would not have had multiple trade offers made for him according to James Mirtle

I no longer understand what you are talking about.

I think the belief is that they're worthless until you do something with them. Yes, you can always hold on for a better deal, but it's not like you're earning interest on it just sitting on it.

Nor do I understand what this is supposed to mean in this context.

 

[RobertKron]

That’s largely going to be a function of Cole, Soucy, Hronek, Blueger, etc.

The difference between Sam Lafferty and Jack Studnicka (or Jack Studnicka and say Phil DiGiuseppe last year) certainly isn’t. If it did then good PK forwards would be the biggest market inefficiency in the NHL.

Eh, if they don't think Studnicka is necessarily an everyday player and they think Lafferty is, then having an available RH face-off option - particularly one who kills penalties - is handy and something a lot of coaches will want.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

I no longer understand what you are talking about.


Nor do I understand what this is supposed to mean in this context.

They I don’t know what else to say to you

Hopefully Lafferty can contributes to the team and worst case scenario the team fails to make the playoffs and we recoup a 5th for him

Edit: RbertKron explained it better than me

 

[RobertKron]

Nor do I understand what this is supposed to mean in this context.

People obviously understand that a 5th has value if they're happy about the trade made for a 5th. I believe they're saying that they don't think it's worthwhile endlessly sitting on the 5th just to avoid "bleeding assets" if you can get a player you want.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

I think the belief is that they're worthless until you do something with them. Yes, you can always hold on for a better deal, but it's not like you're earning interest on it just sitting on it.

Yeah
From a owner/fans pov, no pick is worthless
From a GM’s pov, a 5th is basically worthless if they use it to draft cause they likely wont stay long enough to see it till the end

 

[rypper]

Management believes Lafferty provides more value to them now in achieving their goals then a 5th round pick next year.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Hoglander and Podkokzin are busts. That’s going to set us back. Waiver wire fodder have leaped ahead of those 2 guys in the depth chart. It’s crazy how a team can be so terrible at drafting.

 

[pitseleh]

I think having a rhc that can actually take face off vs one that can’t is a big difference when it comes to the PK.
Also having a guy that can push Miller off the PK should not be underestimated.

Some simple math suggests that is not true. Average team is taking ~400 PK faceoffs. Let’s say Lafferty takes half. He’s 46% on the PK. Let’s say his replacement is 10 percentage points worse. An extra ~20 face off wins is not a “big difference” by any reasonable measure. It’s maybe an extra goal or two against.

But even assuming that is true, why are they only addressing it now if it is a big difference?

Eh, if they don't think Studnicka is necessarily an everyday player and they think Lafferty is, then having an available RH face-off option - particularly one who kills penalties - is handy and something a lot of coaches will want.

I mean, sure in isolation. But that’s my broader point - you can rationalize any given move without context but the big picture is concerning.

 

[Hodgy]

Some simple math suggests that is not true. Average team is taking ~400 PK faceoffs. Let’s say Lafferty takes half. He’s 46% on the PK. Let’s say his replacement is 10 percentage points worse. An extra ~20 face off wins is not a “big difference” by any reasonable measure. It’s maybe an extra goal or two against.

But even assuming that is true, why are they only addressing it now if it is a big difference?



I mean, sure in isolation. But that’s my broader point - you can rationalize any given move without context but the big picture is concerning.

Yes. I agree. And I think this is kind of your point, but to flesh it out a bit, it demonstrates their failed offseason. You brought up cap management, and I agree, but picking up depth fourth liners/bottom pair defenders or whatever in September or October is concerning because you should be able to just find these players in the summer. Sure, the acquisition cost is basically nothing, but it’s concerning their scouting isn’t just finding these guys in the summer because they are absolutely available.

 

[andora]

The difference between Sam Lafferty and Jack Studnicka

At the moment believe it or not is big

 

[I am toxic]

Tocchet: "Soucy is week to week, and we have no one to partner with Hughes"


Patrick: "I am von it"

Tocchet: "Great!"

Patrick: "Dere you go, Laffertee for a draft pick"

Tocchet: facepalm

 

[TruGr1t]

Yes. I agree. And I think this is kind of your point, but to flesh it out a bit, it demonstrates their failed offseason. You brought up cap management, and I agree, but picking up depth fourth liners/bottom pair defenders or whatever in September or October is concerning because you should be able to just find these players in the summer. Sure, the acquisition cost is basically nothing, but it’s concerning their scouting isn’t just finding these guys in the summer because they are absolutely available.

Until you start to get some yield out of the farm system you're going to continue to do this same song and dance indefinitely since you'll be regularly capped out and have most of your roster either making free-agent salaries or at peak earnings for the breadth of the window, plus you're low on assets to make any sort of actual impact trade. So you're somewhat stuck picking up fringe guys in their mid-to-late 20s who have failed to make more competitive NHL rosters and hoping they work out, plus whoever you can afford with the limited amount of cap space available in free agency.

I don't disagree the timing of this is discouraging, but that's still all related to the failure to generate any significant push from below and the lack of real contributors on ELCs.

 

[oceanchild]

Yeah.

Everyone is worse off for having worked with Aqua.

Nonis, Linden, Smyl, Bruce... JR trending there. Gillis had a good run but even that ended ugly. It is how Aqua does business.

Hard not to get some of that stink on you when you get that close… alleged child beaters are not a group I am a fan of…

 

[arttk]

Some simple math suggests that is not true. Average team is taking ~400 PK faceoffs. Let’s say Lafferty takes half. He’s 46% on the PK. Let’s say his replacement is 10 percentage points worse. An extra ~20 face off wins is not a “big difference” by any reasonable measure. It’s maybe an extra goal or two against.

But even assuming that is true, why are they only addressing it now if it is a big difference?



I mean, sure in isolation. But that’s my broader point - you can rationalize any given move without context but the big picture is concerning.

Miller averages 1.7min a game on the PK. Addition of the RHC should hopefully cut that down to close to zero.

Spending a 5th rounder to keep the 8M dollar player focused on offense and not pk and hopefully improving the PK % should move the needle.

 

[oceanchild]

Some simple math suggests that is not true. Average team is taking ~400 PK faceoffs. Let’s say Lafferty takes half. He’s 46% on the PK. Let’s say his replacement is 10 percentage points worse. An extra ~20 face off wins is not a “big difference” by any reasonable measure. It’s maybe an extra goal or two against.

But even assuming that is true, why are they only addressing it now if it is a big difference?



I mean, sure in isolation. But that’s my broader point - you can rationalize any given move without context but the big picture is concerning.

I don’t disagree with your analysis or projections, but it’s rare that you find big wins that swing teams fortunes and significantly more likely that you have to resort to a series of small wins to edge them better. Given how close I think we will be to a playoff spot, it’s not outside the realm that those 2 goals may matter.

As for the timing, I think they had hoped a number of players would have come into camp and “grabbed the bull by the horns” but this year was pretty boring, we didn’t have some AHler stand out and make us all dream big. I think they found a way to improve team speed, acquire a RHC, and hopefully improve the PK. Allll for the bargin bin price of only a 5th round pick.

We do have inside intel saying they were working the phones.

 

[MarkMM]

Hoglander and Podkokzin are busts. That’s going to set us back. Waiver wire fodder have leaped ahead of those 2 guys in the depth chart. It’s crazy how a team can be so terrible at drafting.

This is what worries me, I was for a rebuild but do think it's possible to do a retool and make it work with our existing core. However, that would require Podkolzin and Hoglander to hit, it's already small margins of error and if both or even one of these bust then it really starts to become hard to see how it happens barring some off-setting stroke of luck.

Some simple math suggests that is not true. Average team is taking ~400 PK faceoffs. Let’s say Lafferty takes half. He’s 46% on the PK. Let’s say his replacement is 10 percentage points worse. An extra ~20 face off wins is not a “big difference” by any reasonable measure. It’s maybe an extra goal or two against.

But even assuming that is true, why are they only addressing it now if it is a big difference?



I mean, sure in isolation. But that’s my broader point - you can rationalize any given move without context but the big picture is concerning.

Not hard to believe that they have been looking to improve but were disciplined enough not to pull the trigger until presented with a low-cost / low risk option, in which case this is shrewd management.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Tocchet: "Soucy is week to week, and we have no one to partner with Hughes"


Patrick: "I am von it"

Tocchet: "Great!"

Patrick: "Dere you go, Laffertee for a draft pick"

Tocchet: facepalm

Lafferty is 100% a Tocchet type of player

This is what worries me, I was for a rebuild but do think it's possible to do a retool and make it work with our existing core. However, that would require Podkolzin and Hoglander to hit, it's already small margins of error and if both or even one of these bust then it really starts to become hard to see how it happens barring some off-setting stroke of luck.



Not hard to believe that they have been looking to improve but were disciplined enough not to pull the trigger until presented with a low-cost / low risk option, in which case this is shrewd management.

Be nice to have all those assets that we got in return for trading M Tkchuk…

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Yes. I agree. And I think this is kind of your point, but to flesh it out a bit, it demonstrates their failed offseason. You brought up cap management, and I agree, but picking up depth fourth liners/bottom pair defenders or whatever in September or October is concerning because you should be able to just find these players in the summer.

Disagree with this. It is perfectly rational, intelligent even, to add depth pieces to your roster in the pre-opening night waiver frenzy. Look at what Dubas is doing.

 

[F A N]

I am surprised at the opening lineup. I get giving guys a look but all the talk about having a big summer and being ready for the season I am surprised that the opening roster didn’t essentially get a tune up preseason game.

 

[Bubbles]

Another "perfect" salary cap by Castonguay. $0 dollars leftover. She is definitely a cap wizard.

 

[4th line culture]

Another "perfect" salary cap by Castonguay. $0 dollars leftover. She is definitely a cap wizard.

How many wins does that equal?

 

[Vector]

Another "perfect" salary cap by Castonguay. $0 dollars leftover. She is definitely a cap wizard.

Wasn’t perfect but close. $28,333 from their maximum.

 

[strattonius]

Tocchet: "Soucy is week to week, and we have no one to partner with Hughes"


Patrick: "I am von it"

Tocchet: "Great!"

Patrick: "Dere you go, Laffertee for a draft pick"

Tocchet: facepalm

So our management should endlessly look for a top 4 dman a day before the season starts instead of improve other areas of the roster?

No one is trading what we need on the blueline. And it's definitely not on waivers like some are hoping. I'm glad Alvin is pursuing other areas of weakness with the roster instead of sitting back waiting for a magical defenseman to pop up.