Management Discussion

[TLEH]

So this was prompted by the mainboard thread basically saying the Hawks have been making bad moves basically since the 2015 Stanley Cup. It also talks about the Bickell contract.

It got me thinking completely about all of Stans moves and signings and I wanted a place to compile them all and have a real discussion about them.

TT trade: I don't think any of us were all that upset when it happens. Still think he's a streaky player and we had to move cap. Happens.

Panarin for Saad: Happy with the deal. As JD always says. We needed Hossa-lite, not Kane-lite. Saad hasn't been killing it, but neither has Panarin to be honest.

Turned Morin into Panik: Clear win

Clendening for Forsling: Clear win.

Weise/Fleischman for Danault and a 2nd: One of the sneaky worst moves he's ever made. Both guys didn't work out, and Danault has been solid for Canadiens and the 2nd is still a nice pick to work with. 2nd hasn't been used yet.

Seabrook deal is obviously bad.

Toews and Kane deals I have no gripe with. Had to happen.

Vermette deal is obviously a win cause you win the cup.

Hjalmarsson for Murphy and LD: Murphy hasn't been great but neither has Hammer and I agree with DHF that he will fall off a cliff. Neutral.

The Sharp trade to Dallas was bad.


I know I am missing some. DeBrincat is a good pick, don't know how much he had to do with that.

I am also curious about your guys thoughts of Q and Stan having differently philosophies and that causing issues with some of Stan's moves. I think he has given Q some of his toys back when he knew he shouldn't have.

Also wonder how much President JM has had to do with any of the deals. Secretly feel like he had some involvement.

Click to read more...

 

[LDF]

So this was prompted by the mainboard thread basically saying the Hawks have been making bad moves basically since the 2015 Stanley Cup. It also talks about the Bickell contract.

It got me thinking completely about all of Stans moves and signings and I wanted a place to compile them all and have a real discussion about them.

TT trade: I don't think any of us were all that upset when it happens. Still think he's a streaky player and we had to move cap. Happens.

Panarin for Saad: Happy with the deal. As JD always says. We needed Hossa-lite, not Kane-lite. Saad hasn't been killing it, but neither has Panarin to be honest.

Turned Morin into Panik: Clear win

Clendening for Forsling: Clear win.

Weise/Fleischman for Danault and a 2nd: One of the sneaky worst moves he's ever made. Both guys didn't work out, and Danault has been solid for Canadiens and the 2nd is still a nice pick to work with. 2nd hasn't been used yet.

Seabrook deal is obviously bad.

Toews and Kane deals I have no gripe with. Had to happen.

Vermette deal is obviously a win cause you win the cup.

Hjalmarsson for Murphy and LD: Murphy hasn't been great but neither has Hammer and I agree with DHF that he will fall off a cliff. Neutral.

The Sharp trade to Dallas was bad.


I know I am missing some. DeBrincat is a good pick, don't know how much he had to do with that.

I am also curious about your guys thoughts of Q and Stan having differently philosophies and that causing issues with some of Stan's moves. I think he has given Q some of his toys back when he knew he shouldn't have.

Also wonder how much President JM has had to do with any of the deals. Secretly feel like he had some involvement.

while this is a good idea. i would like to point out that the 2 major trade handcuff the org when it needed cap space, thereby in one, trading valuable assets to get the trade done. of course i am talking about Bickell and Seabs contracts.

no matter how many good things he may have done, there was wash away with these 2 oh shit moment.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

We have known from day 1 President McCub has his fingers in trades and signings... Some have worked out like Hossa, others have not (Huet)

It is still very early obviously but the Saad for Panarin deal is hurting right now... You gotta feel for Kane who finally had someone to play with who was pretty good only to watch him fet shipped out to try and boost Toews up.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Oduya part 1 very good, part two not so much

 

[JaegerDice]

Stan certainly isnt perfect, but he makes more good moves than bad, and by a pretty healthy margin. Impressive, especially considering team success invariably drives up prices and applies pressure in a cap system. He's done well considering how many situations he's had little leverage.

The problem is some of his mistakes have been REALLY big and hurt his leverage even more, like the Seabrook contract. Others, like the Ladd trade, were moves made in a win-now mindset for rosters that needed more help than TDL moves could bring. I dont know how much of that is him mis-evaluating his team, or a mandate from above to go for it.

Still, outside of maybe Yzerman, Francis, and Shanahan hard to think of any GMs with a better ratio, and even they have some head-scratchers of their own. And only Yzerman has really started to approach the challenging part when players want real money, let alone actually made a cup (or multiple cup) winning team. We'll see how the Leafs and Canes handle it.

Few GMs Id rather have at the helm of this team.


Edit: And yes, the Saad for Panarin tradeoff is a good one, given the loss of Hossa.

 

[ColdSteel2]

He’s not the best trader but he’s much more aggressive about making moves when they need to be made. His Vermette move was the difference between winning a Cup and losing in the 2nd round if that. That, to me, bought a lot of good will, a lot of slack. And he got Panarin that season. He was smart to sign Anisimov to the very reasonable contract extension.

Unfortunately, we just didn’t have the prospect pool to recover after the last purge. That’s on him, for sure. The thing is though, you look at what we have on the team now, in Rockford and in the amateur leagues and we have never been so strong. They have enough young D to fill out our lineup and probably even trade for a young forward at some point. That was smart to go heavy on drafting and signing D-men. He’s right, there is a shortage right now. He’s got a really good plan in place. He’s earned the right to see it through.

A coaching change will help too. Think about it, Colliton is going to be his guy and will be indebted to him for his opportunities. They’ll be on the same page.

I know it sucks being mediocre right now but the arrow is pointing up. If the cap goes up 4-5M, there you go, we just use that on Seabrook and can go about filling out the rest of the roster with cheap quality prospects and can then make a deal to bring in another star, which this team desperately needs. You can’t lose Sharp and Hossa from the Cup teams and expect to continue on competing while the other stars are getting older too. You figure Anisimov is Vermette’s replacement, so you can’t count him as an addition. It is what it is. We’re retooling right now.

 

[Bubba88]

Ruuta Looks like a good signing, his UFA signings aren't bad or putting us in a bad Situation. AA for that contract is fair and good value.

He's had his Hits and Misses, but it's not easy to work without much Cap Space. Kane and Toews contracts had to happen, we all know that.

 

[CanCHI]

Stan had to trade away/lost players who went onto prominent roles on other teams and won 2 cups after he is the greatest GM of all time.

Versteeg
Buff
Ladd
Brouwer
Niemi
Eager
Sopel
Fraser

That is the start of an expansion team

 

[Blackhawks]

Did I just read "Stan is the greatest GM of all time" HAHAHAHAHAHA


Reading the comments in here comparing to the comments in the main board is night and day lol. Here people actually make him look like he hasnt run this team into the ground in a matter of two years when with a few smart moves which were very obvious to a lot of people this team could have still been contending. People change, Stan was good until 2015 and he has been absolutely horrendous since, stop sugar coating it already, get your heads out of your homer emotions and see reality for what it is.

 

[clydesdale line]

Stan had to trade away/lost players who went onto prominent roles on other teams and won 2 cups after he is the greatest GM of all time.

Let's not get carried away...

 

[TLEH]

Overall I think it’s been ok. The more I think about it though, it feels like it’s a lot of slightly bad moves that keep adding up.

 

[Salvaged Ship]

I try to look at trades or signings from the perspective of at the time of the move. You win some and lose some but the Seabrook signing was the single worst move he has made and maybe one of the worst contracts of all time.

When the cap purge of 2010 happened and we lost Buff it had a serious impact on us. When Bickell went crazy in the 2013 playoffs right when he became a free agent it was bad timing for the Hawks. They did not want to lose Bickell like they did Buff and Bickell looked at his age like he was a rising star, a potential 40 goal scorer. It turned out to be a bad signing but I completely understood why they signed him at the time. That signing gets way too much heat in here, you have to consider the circumstances at the time.

The Toews/Kane signings had to happen, whatever the cost. You can argue they could have signed for less but we don’t know. The single most idiotic signing was Seabrook. He was clearly in decline, your cap situation sucked, and you give him that length of contract with a full NMC. I get Seabrook has been a huge part of the Hawks and it would suck to see him in another uniform but you can’t be emotional. He dumped Sharp to the curb so doing the same with Seabrook should have been obvious.

 

[pvr]

We have known from day 1 President McCub has his fingers in trades and signings... Some have worked out like Hossa, others have not (Huet)

It is still very early obviously but the Saad for Panarin deal is hurting right now... You gotta feel for Kane who finally had someone to play with who was pretty good only to watch him fet shipped out to try and boost Toews up.

Kane has to stop sulking, get his effin head out of his a$$, and start playing real hockey again. He looks disengaged and not interested out there. Panarin v Saad is at worst a lateral move all things considered, and likely a positive move in the long run for a myriad of reasons.

 

[ChiHawks10]

We have known from day 1 President McCub has his fingers in trades and signings... Some have worked out like Hossa, others have not (Huet)

It is still very early obviously but the Saad for Panarin deal is hurting right now... You gotta feel for Kane who finally had someone to play with who was pretty good only to watch him fet shipped out to try and boost Toews up.

Panarin wasn't shipped out to boost up Toews. Panarin was shipped out to acquire Hossa's replacement. The Hawks 110% knew that Hossa wasn't going to play, and needed someone who could slot in for his deployments and minutes with a similar skillset.

Kane has Schmaltz and Anisimov to play with. Oh no, those guys are terrible! Woe is Kane for having to play with those scrubs!!!

 

[LDF]

I try to look at trades or signings from the perspective of at the time of the move. You win some and lose some but the Seabrook signing was the single worst move he has made and maybe one of the worst contracts of all time.

When the cap purge of 2010 happened and we lost Buff it had a serious impact on us. When Bickell went crazy in the 2013 playoffs right when he became a free agent it was bad timing for the Hawks. They did not want to lose Bickell like they did Buff and Bickell looked at his age like he was a rising star, a potential 40 goal scorer. It turned out to be a bad signing but I completely understood why they signed him at the time. That signing gets way too much heat in here, you have to consider the circumstances at the time.

The Toews/Kane signings had to happen, whatever the cost. You can argue they could have signed for less but we don’t know. The single most idiotic signing was Seabrook. He was clearly in decline, your cap situation sucked, and you give him that length of contract with a full NMC. I get Seabrook has been a huge part of the Hawks and it would suck to see him in another uniform but you can’t be emotional. He dumped Sharp to the curb so doing the same with Seabrook should have been obvious.

i agree with you on the Seabs pov, but i really disagree with the Bickell signing. i guess i never will. Bickell had a bad rep coming into his Fa yr and his performance was playoff moment. but his rep was still a lackadaisical play and it was the same all the way thru the season, that was until come playoff time. this kind of performance did not justify his contract. i was livid and was saying to let him walk.

same thing with Seabs contract.

 

[LDF]

Panarin wasn't shipped out to boost up Toews. Panarin was shipped out to acquire Hossa's replacement. The Hawks 110% knew that Hossa wasn't going to play, and needed someone who could slot in for his deployments and minutes with a similar skillset.

Kane has Schmaltz and Anisimov to play with. Oh no, those guys are terrible! Woe is Kane for having to play with those scrubs!!!

for me, i thought Pan trade was more for his lack of 2 way play. the Bhawks cut bait and traded him for Saad.

 

[LDF]

Overall I think it’s been ok. The more I think about it though, it feels like it’s a lot of slightly bad moves that keep adding up.

plus when the team went into a bad situation, every mistake is then magnified.

 

[Salvaged Ship]

i agree with you on the Seabs pov, but i really disagree with the Bickell signing. i guess i never will. Bickell had a bad rep coming into his Fa yr and his performance was playoff moment. but his rep was still a lackadaisical play and it was the same all the way thru the season, that was until come playoff time. this kind of performance did not justify his contract. i was livid and was saying to let him walk.

same thing with Seabs contract.

I believe you, I just think when they lost Buff it really hurt them and they seen Bickell as turning the corner and developing into the same type of player. They didn’t want to risk losing that goal scoring power forward again. Bickell just flopped due to the MS or whatever reason. It was just bad timing for the Hawks all around and amazing timing for Bickell. Didn’t work out.

 

[LDF]

I believe you, I just think when they lost Buff it really hurt them and they seen Bickell as turning the corner and developing into the same type of player. They didn’t want to risk losing that goal scoring power forward again. Bickell just flopped due to the MS or whatever reason. It was just bad timing for the Hawks all around and amazing timing for Bickell. Didn’t work out.

ok i can agree with you on that point with Bickell. but i am looking at that time and nothing else. he, Bickell had a lazy tag on him. it drove the coaches crazy b/c he needed to feel motivated to put forward the effort, to do his job. so this is where i am basing my opinion and dislike. then the screw up by SB at the eve of the draft to asked for more of a rtn from SB.

the ms is in hindsight 20/20 kind of an excuse. the org had 2 times to rectify the Bickell mistake.

Buf, i really understood that problem. the problem, if i remember correctly was Buff had a great playoff and esp battling Ponger in front off the net. that was an exciting battle .... the Bhawks won the cup there with that battle.

then came Buff contract request and the Bhawks salary cap restriction. no matter what, the Bhawks just couldn't afford to keep him. however the talent difference between Buff vs Bickell, 2 total different personality and willingness to leave it on the ice.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Most of his bad moves were because of the flat cap over the last few years that no one anticipated a few years ago. (when T & K deals were signed)

He had a good vision for this team, but the slight fall off of Toews, Keith, and massive drop off of Seabrook has put a wrench in his plan.

Still think this team is good, and has a lot of potential. Chemistry is huge, and hopefully this team can build up some more of it over the next 40-60 games.

 

[BK]

TEH and JD. Agreed for the most part.

Greatest of all-time? No not close but he is a good GM who built two cup teams (13/15) and has drafted well. It looks like he finally might be starting to find D in the draft which will be huge going forward as we know he can find forward talent.

 

[LordKOTL]

Kane has to stop sulking, get his effin head out of his a$$, and start playing real hockey again. He looks disengaged and not interested out there. Panarin v Saad is at worst a lateral move all things considered, and likely a positive move in the long run for a myriad of reasons.

Exactly. Kane has proven he can carry a line before. Why he's not now is anyone's guess but, he can show up any damned time he feels like it.

A few more I'll throw my opinion on:

Hjammer signing for 4.1M AAV: About a 1M underpaid at the time, tucked in our best defensive D-man and wringed probably the best years out of him before the trade. Def. a good deal. Trading him? Who knows at this point...it looks like a lateral move at best.

Crawford's 6 for 6: At the time I thought it was about 1M too expensive. In hindsight we tucked in a top-10-cap-era goalie for at or less than his market value. Plus, if you look at the netminders some fans were clamoring to keep over him vs. his numbers, it's obvious a good choice was made especially with our D falling off a cliff since 2015.

Kruger. I know there was a handshake deal for his minute bridge vs. his current deal that was traded out, but I think this one was a miss...Kruger, much like Bolland before him, slowly petered out.

Runblad: Why, oh, why, oh, why, oh, why....and that's probably not his genetic structure. One can argue on Terra Firma that Seabs deal was the worst, but Bowman's fascination for a guy that makes John Scott look like Bobby Orr is up there...the only saving grace of this one is that he was cheap, but not cheap enough to send to Rockford.

 

[TheDoorDoctor]

Oduya part 1 very good, part two not so much

Part 2 we barely lost much for him though, so a bit of a wash

 

[LDF]

Exactly. Kane has proven he can carry a line before. Why he's not now is anyone's guess but, he can show up any damned time he feels like it.

A few more I'll throw my opinion on:

Hjammer signing for 4.1M AAV: About a 1M underpaid at the time, tucked in our best defensive D-man and wringed probably the best years out of him before the trade. Def. a good deal. Trading him? Who knows at this point...it looks like a lateral move at best.

Crawford's 6 for 6: At the time I thought it was about 1M too expensive. In hindsight we tucked in a top-10-cap-era goalie for at or less than his market value. Plus, if you look at the netminders some fans were clamoring to keep over him vs. his numbers, it's obvious a good choice was made especially with our D falling off a cliff since 2015.

Kruger. I know there was a handshake deal for his minute bridge vs. his current deal that was traded out, but I think this one was a miss...Kruger, much like Bolland before him, slowly petered out.

Runblad: Why, oh, why, oh, why, oh, why....and that's probably not his genetic structure. One can argue on Terra Firma that Seabs deal was the worst, but Bowman's fascination for a guy that makes John Scott look like Bobby Orr is up there...the only saving grace of this one is that he was cheap, but not cheap enough to send to Rockford.

kruger took a smaller salary the yr before to help the team out with the salary cap. and then yes, the handshake deal kick in.

 

[Blue Liner]

So this was prompted by the mainboard thread basically saying the Hawks have been making bad moves basically since the 2015 Stanley Cup. It also talks about the Bickell contract.

It got me thinking completely about all of Stans moves and signings and I wanted a place to compile them all and have a real discussion about them.

TT trade: I don't think any of us were all that upset when it happens. Still think he's a streaky player and we had to move cap. Happens.

Panarin for Saad: Happy with the deal. As JD always says. We needed Hossa-lite, not Kane-lite. Saad hasn't been killing it, but neither has Panarin to be honest.

Turned Morin into Panik: Clear win

Clendening for Forsling: Clear win.

Weise/Fleischman for Danault and a 2nd: One of the sneaky worst moves he's ever made. Both guys didn't work out, and Danault has been solid for Canadiens and the 2nd is still a nice pick to work with. 2nd hasn't been used yet.

Seabrook deal is obviously bad.

Toews and Kane deals I have no gripe with. Had to happen.

Vermette deal is obviously a win cause you win the cup.

Hjalmarsson for Murphy and LD: Murphy hasn't been great but neither has Hammer and I agree with DHF that he will fall off a cliff. Neutral.

The Sharp trade to Dallas was bad.


I know I am missing some. DeBrincat is a good pick, don't know how much he had to do with that.

I am also curious about your guys thoughts of Q and Stan having differently philosophies and that causing issues with some of Stan's moves. I think he has given Q some of his toys back when he knew he shouldn't have.

Also wonder how much President JM has had to do with any of the deals. Secretly feel like he had some involvement.

He got this pick in the trade for Shaw, so that at the very least was his impact on it.

Another negative was everything Rundblad. I'm especially bitter cuz of who Arizona took with the pick they got from the Hawks. Really good chance Hawks would've taken him if they had that pick, so it's just salt in an open wound.

As for philosophies, there is absolutely, no doubt differing views between GM and Head Coach but they've by and large made it work overall.

Can't speak for any others, but McDonough's fingerprints were all over Campbell being signed as a free agent. He filled a big hockey role but it was also the time for a big PR splash all coinciding at once.

Bowman's done a lot more good than bad, but some of the bad and has been crippling. Seabrook's contract will always be a black mark on his resume. Whether that's black, bold ink or just normal font is the question when the history book is written.

He's still one of a group of four or five guys I'd want running my team. That's literally it. GM'ing is that blah around the rest of the league.