LW options

[Heraldic]

Post the reports so we can walk you through it. Things you seem to think are clear are a lot muddier than you're making them out to be.

It seems you're asking me to do all the leg work for you (correcting you, finding the sources etc.).



But I'm not interested in spinning these things (credibility of sources) with Ducks fans anymore. Last time I did it was with your moderator on Sabres board, and I was told that Ducks are not going to shop Fowler in any time or place. And here we are...

Your post was in reference to the two players comparative trade value in general context. Most teams are more concerned with the cap than salary.

"Most teams"... Ducks suddenly are not a budget team or how that has any relevance here?

Besides that, I wouldn't care if Ennis made $1M salary, he isn't a viable starting point for Fowler.

That's one way to say "I had no idea what I was talking about regarding their salary".

In demand players usually get a 1st, a roster player, and a prospect. So no, we aren't going to agree that the 1st was the deal breaker, because we have absolutely no idea what was being asked for. Ducks management is notoriously tight-lipped about trades, and have heaped scorn on management teams who in previous transactions have leaked information to the press prior to the conclusion of the deal and/or before BM had a chance to contact the players involved.

We're not talking here about a "1st round pick". We're talking about a top-10 pick around the draft. You actually think it is the same? Especially when this draft was pretty top heavy. Last time a top-10 pick was moved for a player it was for Corey Schneider (who had a lot demand), and it was moved solely, and alone.

With that 8th pick those teams picked a player that has clear potential to be better and more valuable than Fowler - and with significantly more team control. Especially the expansion draft coming.

Sorta like he did with Tim Murray right befor the draft. For all we know, Tim Murray's big mouth is the reason that no trade occurred. There's just as much evidence for that statement as for yours.

You forget that Montreal was also in the mix... So Bergevin as well had a big mouth? It seems B.Murray is going to have problems finding trade partners with that big mouth of theirs.

 

[Exit Dose]

It seems you're asking me to do all the leg work for you (correcting you, finding the sources etc.).



But I'm not interested in spinning these things (credibility of sources) with Ducks fans anymore. Last time I did it was with your moderator on Sabres board, and I was told that Ducks are not going to shop Fowler in any time or place. And here we are...

Did you actually read the tweet?

 

[Heraldic]

Okay, then post them.

I did offer a source. And for me it is enough for now.

I said that Lindholm took a top pairing role during this season. Fowler also had a top pairing role this season.

Back that up and prove it. Show me exactly when that change happened.

 

[Heraldic]

Did you actually read the tweet?

Yeah, I know. "Dreger was only speculating".

But like I said, I'm not that interested in spinning these things, which should be pretty obvious for everyone, just for the sake of someone trying to save their narrative.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I know it was thought that the Sabres and Habs balked at the thought of giving up their top pick, but why couldn't it be the other way around? The only reports were the teams picking at 8 and 9, and the team admitted they tried using both firsts to get into that range, I don't think that's a coincidence. Clayton Keller also went somewhat unexpectedly at 7. Perhaps he targeted Keller, and any potential deal fell apart once he went off the board? Maybe not, but something to think about.

 

[Exit Dose]

Back that up and prove it. Show me exactly when that change happened.

I'm not going to sit here tallying up the first half of this season's games and then tally up the second half of the season's games.

 

[Exit Dose]

Yeah, I know. "Dreger was only speculating".

But like I said, I'm not that interested in spinning these things, which should be pretty obvious for everyone, just for the sake of someone trying to save their narrative.

Dreger was not only just speculating, but even if you choose to ignore what the word 'might' means, which you are, he doesn't actually say in that tweet that Anaheim is asking only for a top ten pick. That is something that you are projecting onto it.

 

[Heraldic]

Dreger was not only just speculating, but even if you choose to ignore what the word 'might' means, which you are, he doesn't actually say in that tweet that Anaheim is asking only for a top ten pick. That is something that you are projecting onto it.

Like I said, it doesn't really matter was it only the pick or something more. It clearly was the dealbreaker. Or you think that the other pieces were Reinhart/Galchenyuk? Of course not.

Team's are not going to give a high end prospect without a need of expansion draft just to acquire two years of a good top-4 LHD which you need to protect.

I know it was thought that the Sabres and Habs balked at the thought of giving up their top pick, but why couldn't it be the other way around? The only reports were the teams picking at 8 and 9, and the team admitted they tried using both firsts to get into that range, I don't think that's a coincidence. Clayton Keller also went somewhat unexpectedly at 7. Perhaps he targeted Keller, and any potential deal fell apart once he went off the board? Maybe not, but something to think about.

Sure, everything's possible. But nothing is really indicating that being the case.

I'm not going to sit here tallying up the first half of this season's games and then tally up the second half of the season's games.

It's not my job to prove your point. I already proved mine.

 

[Heraldic]

1. One of the reasons Montreal wants to keep No. 9 is the Canadiens may have to use it to replace Subban if he is dealt. Anaheim’s Cam Fowler is certainly a target, just as he is for the Buffalo Sabres, picking one spot ahead of the Canadiens. Ducks GM Bob Murray already has two first-rounders (24 and 30), but would love to get into the top 10. Sabres GM Tim Murray would likely do it for Tyler Ennis, but has held off when it comes to his top pick. (Those two Murrays have been talking about different possibilities for a long time.)

And here's Friedman's take on it...

He's not speculating there.

He's not also talking about other pieces there either.

 

[Exit Dose]

Like I said, it doesn't really matter was it only the pick or something more. It clearly was the dealbreaker. Or you think that the other pieces were Reinhart/Galchenyuk? Of course not.

Team's are not going to give a high end prospect without a need of expansion draft just to acquire two years of a good top-4 LHD which you need to protect.

Again, you don't actually know that is the case, but feel free to post that source that says it when you find it. We'll be waiting.

It's not my job to prove your point. I already proved mine.

Not really.

 

[Heraldic]

Again, you don't actually know that is the case, but feel free to post that source that says it when you find it. We'll be waiting.

Check the Friedman's take above...

Not really.

Everyone's waiting for your move.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

It seems you're asking me to do all the leg work for you (correcting you, finding the sources etc.).



But I'm not interested in spinning these things (credibility of sources) with Ducks fans anymore. Last time I did it was with your moderator on Sabres board, and I was told that Ducks are not going to shop Fowler in any time or place. And here we are...



"Most teams"... Ducks suddenly are not a budget team or how that has any relevance here?



That's one way to say "I had no idea what I was talking about regarding their salary".



We're not talking here about a "1st round pick". We're talking about a top-10 pick around the draft. You actually think it is the same? Especially when this draft was pretty top heavy. Last time a top-10 pick was moved for a player it was for Corey Schneider (who had a lot demand), and it was moved solely, and alone.

With that 8th pick those teams picked a player that has clear potential to be better and more valuable than Fowler - and with significantly more team control. Especially the expansion draft coming.



You forget that Montreal was also in the mix... So Bergevin as well had a big mouth? It seems B.Murray is going to have problems finding trade partners with that big mouth of theirs.

"Might boil down to". There's nothing clear about that.

Yes "most teams", because once again if you read the post I quoted, your post was speaking in general terms and not from an Anaheim perspective. The little condescending addition to your post just makes you look juvenile, I'm perfectly aware of the Ducks budget situation.

 

[Sojourn]

Check the Friedman's take above...




Everyone's waiting for your move.

Not really. We saw how Fowler was used.

 

[Exit Dose]

And here's Friedman's take on it...

He's not speculating there.

He's not also talking about other pieces there either.

I'll grant that quote would point to TM thinking that he could land Fowler without including his top ten pick, though it's not exactly clear if that's on its own or included with Ennis.

 

[Ducks DVM]

We're not talking here about a "1st round pick". We're talking about a top-10 pick around the draft. You actually think it is the same? Especially when this draft was pretty top heavy. Last time a top-10 pick was moved for a player it was for Corey Schneider (who had a lot demand), and it was moved solely, and alone.

With that 8th pick those teams picked a player that has clear potential to be better and more valuable than Fowler - and with significantly more team control. Especially the expansion draft coming.



You forget that Montreal was also in the mix... So Bergevin as well had a big mouth? It seems B.Murray is going to have problems finding trade partners with that big mouth of theirs.

I'm not sure what bearing that the trade of a backup goaltender, a position that's notorious for bringing a poor return, has on this discussion. Defensemen pretty much always bring a better return, younger players usually bring a better return, players in positions that are almost never traded usually bring a premium return, and proven players almost always bring a better return.

I see a lot of conjecture from talking heads and posturing by a loudmouth GM.

It's also conceivable that the other pieces that were being asked from either team were more than they were willing to give up IN ADDITION TO the 8-10 pick. You have absolutely no idea. And none of the quotes you've provided provide any insight into that either.

 

[ShadowDuck]

Check the Friedman's take above...




Everyone's waiting for your move.

Everyone's wondering wtf you're trying to accomplish

 

[Duck Off]

Didn't Tim Murray flat out say he was fine with dealing his pick for a top pairing left handed defenseman before the draft?

Regardless this is stupid. It's fair for any fan to think that Fowler wasn't worth a top 10 pick based on spec by guys like Friedman. However, it's also fair to think Murray wanted more than a top 10 pick when you consider what Larsson went for (Fowler is as good, if not better than Latsson) and team needs. We need to shed salary, but thats not why Fowler would be traded.

I for one do not think Murray would trade Fowler for 8 or 9. Not with out significant plus (no, not Ennis lol). Taking Fowler off this team makes us significantly worse. I was worried Murray would be dumb enough to trade Fowler for futures, but fortunately he wasn't. I knew he'd he tempted by the top 10 pick (yes no doubt in my mind, it was offered), but he knew whatever they were offering with it (if anything), it didn't help us enough.

 

[Exit Dose]

Maybe they're assuming that the "25 year-old, top pairing defenseman" was Kulikov. I'm not sure how you'd think that and then discount Fowler who averaged more ice time, though. Was there another 25 year-old, top pairing LHD that got traded that I'm forgetting about?

 

[mytduxfan*]

Everyone's wondering wtf you're trying to accomplish

Yeah, when is someone going to kick this obnoxious character. I'm pretty sure everyone is sick of being patronised and told how inferior their opinions are compared to those of the mighty Heraldic. We get enough of this crap on the TB.

This guy has offered Ennis. We've told him we don't want Ennis. He's not convincing us that Ennis is a good starting point for Fowler. He's completely close-minded to the idea that BM wanted 8th/9th OA + roster player for Fowler. He's completely close-minded to the idea that, until 3 months ago, Fowler has been our #1D for us for the passed 3 seasons. He's completely close-minded to the idea that Fowler could stay with the Ducks.

I think we're done here, no?

 

[Ducks in a row]

Ennis cap hit is irrelevant for Ducks. His actual salary is 2,65 mill for next and 3,65 million for two after that. You think you will find a cheaper and better LW for the next three years? If so, I would like to hear who that might be.

There seems to be many who are not familiar with him. His defensive play might be a problem (if you look for defensively sound player), but his size really isn't to that degree. I recommend many of you to take a better grasp at it. He plays a lot bigger than his height indicates.

Tyler Ennis is not a first tier player, but he is not "crappy" either. He has warts as many offensive top-6 wingers. Same applies to Fowler (yet he is more valuable on his own even with shorter and more expensive contract compared to Ennis).

We have $14,832,500 in cap space. 8 forwards under contract with Rakell being a RFA we really need to re-sign. We need to sign a backup goalie. We need to re-sign Lindholm. Cap hit might or might not be that important but regardless $3,650,000 actually salary for this coming season and the next 2 after that isn't attractive for us. We traded away Hagelin to get rid of his contract would rather have him then Ennis.

Doesn't matter if he plays bigger then his size his size is not going to be attractive for us we don't want to find out how he would hold up in the wild west.

I look at Tyler Ennis kinda like Sam Gagner both players who have produced some nice offense before but overall game isn't to my liking. Don't want either on the Ducks as especially in a trade involving Fowler.

 

[Heraldic]

Not really. We saw how Fowler was used.

I see a lot of comments basing on this "we saw it". So how is it so difficult to back it up with some data?

I'm not sure what bearing that the trade of a backup goaltender, a position that's notorious for bringing a poor return, has on this discussion. Defensemen pretty much always bring a better return, younger players usually bring a better return, players in positions that are almost never traded usually bring a premium return, and proven players almost always bring a better return.

So you don't only think that 8th overall pick in a top heavy draft is "a 1st", but you also think that Schneider was a "backup goaltender"?

I see a lot of conjecture from talking heads and posturing by a loudmouth GM.

We should take your own words as more credible?

It's also conceivable that the other pieces that were being asked from either team were more than they were willing to give up IN ADDITION TO the 8-10 pick. You have absolutely no idea. And none of the quotes you've provided provide any insight into that either.

No insider has talked anything about other pieces. The way both Dreger and Friedman posted their info indicate no other pieces being involved. At least the other pieces were pretty much non-factors because they weren't specified (if there ever was any).

Didn't Tim Murray flat out say he was fine with dealing his pick for a top pairing left handed defenseman before the draft?

Regardless this is stupid. It's fair for any fan to think that Fowler wasn't worth a top 10 pick based on spec by guys like Friedman.

Exactly... This shouldn't be that difficult, to be honest.

However, it's also fair to think Murray wanted more than a top 10 pick when you consider what Larsson went for (Fowler is as good, if not better than Latsson) and team needs. We need to shed salary, but thats not why Fowler would be traded.

Sure, he might have wanted more. I just doubt it because if the 8th overall wasn't enough, why it obviously was the hot topic there? I doubt 2nd round pick or similar was the dealbreaker there.

But I would be more careful when comparing Larsson and Fowler here. Devils weren't shopping Larsson - it was Edmonton who decided to shop Hall and asked every team their price - they were pretty determined to move a big name. Larsson ended up being the best value available. The market usually doesn't favor the seller on off-season.

I for one do not think Murray would trade Fowler for 8 or 9. Not with out significant plus (no, not Ennis lol). Taking Fowler off this team makes us significantly worse. I was worried Murray would be dumb enough to trade Fowler for futures, but fortunately he wasn't. I knew he'd he tempted by the top 10 pick (yes no doubt in my mind, it was offered), but he knew whatever they were offering with it (if anything), it didn't help us enough.

Just to be curious, what you think would have been a sufficient + in addition to 8th overall?

And the 8th overall wasn't offered - it was the opposite. Teams weren't willing to move it. Friedman was pretty explicit about it:

Sabres GM Tim Murray would likely do it for Tyler Ennis, but has held off when it comes to his top pick.

Before Sabres added Kulikov they were in a pressing need for top-4 LHD. That was the leverage B.Murray had. Now that Sabres had acquired top-4 LHD, they don't have a pressing need (but likely would add another). I don't think there is any team in a need of top-4 LHD as much as Ducks are in a need of salary and cheap forward options.

Maybe they're assuming that the "25 year-old, top pairing defenseman" was Kulikov. I'm not sure how you'd think that and then discount Fowler who averaged more ice time, though. Was there another 25 year-old, top pairing LHD that got traded that I'm forgetting about?

Who assumes Kulikov is that? Murray explicitly said that he's not sure is Kulikov good enough to be paired with Risto but they will find it out.

The 8th overall pick wasn't moved because there wasn't any top-pairing LHDs available. No Fowler, No Kulikov.

We have $14,832,500 in cap space. 8 forwards under contract with Rakell being a RFA we really need to re-sign. We need to sign a backup goalie. We need to re-sign Lindholm. Cap hit might or might not be that important but regardless $3,650,000 actually salary for this coming season and the next 2 after that isn't attractive for us. We traded away Hagelin to get rid of his contract would rather have him then Ennis.

Doesn't matter if he plays bigger then his size his size is not going to be attractive for us we don't want to find out how he would hold up in the wild west.

I look at Tyler Ennis kinda like Sam Gagner both players who have produced some nice offense before but overall game isn't to my liking. Don't want either on the Ducks as especially in a trade involving Fowler.

Are Ducks fans trying to bluff or they're just not aware? Or why is everyone operating under cap hits here, while it doesn't make sense?

And Ennis makes 2,65 this season for trade purposes. He had 1 million signing bonus, which Sabres already paid.

Ennis is not like Gagner. He's a tons of more dynamic and faster and isn't a perimeter player. That's why he actually has value.

 

[Vipers31]

Oh, great, this nonsense is coming to our board now. Thrilled.

But for the sake of it - a pre-draft statement about a GM having held off (perfect tense) on making a pick available is not a suitable piece of evidence for a claim that it remained off the table lateron. But we've come to learn that linguistics aren't exactly a strong suit of many HF'ers.

 

[Paul4587]

I think there were enough legit sources reporting that around the draft. Or you don't think them being legit?



http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67#

Lindholm facing slightly tougher opponents.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67#

Lindholm having more TOI on 5v5.

Absolutely nothing indicates here that Fowler had the role you said he had.

I'm sorry but please explain why Corsi Rel QOC is an objective way of measuring the competition one faces? Those with the best relative Corsi's aren't necessarily their teams best players. Look at Weber and Josi in Nashville for example. It also doesn't factor in deployment - someone starting in the defensive zone a lot more is going to have a much tougher time than someone starting in the offensive zone even if the latter is playing against tougher players.

There is no reliable statistic that is currently being measured which gives a good indication of who faces the top competition.

 

[dracom]

Don't get why Sabres fans get so upset when we say we don't want Ennis, then they have to go on a tirade about how wrong we are and how are players suck and yada yada.

When a fanbase says we don't want a player, it's best to just say "ok" and leave it at that. Especially if you're going to be in our board. Argue all you want on the main TB, but on here just best let it go.

 

[Exit Dose]

Who assumes Kulikov is that? Murray explicitly said that he's not sure is Kulikov good enough to be paired with Risto but they will find it out.

The 8th overall pick wasn't moved because there wasn't any top-pairing LHDs available. No Fowler, No Kulikov.

So, Tim Murray just said out of the blue he'd be willing to move the 8th overall for a 25 year-old, top pairing LHD for no reason in particular? He was just hoping one would magically appear? He had no one in mind?