OT: LOCAL COVID19 - PART II... Seriously, local only

[Do Make Say Think]

Your minds single-track focus on how group X should be punished and made to suffer for their sins is a choice too. Thinking that many of our senior citizens filling hospitals are a 'burden' that needs to be 'treated as such' is flat out messed up. You are not some kind of god, stop inferring people you dislike are disposable. Do better.

If only those idiot seniors had chosen to opt-out of space and time! Those damn fools!!

This has nothing to do my liking or disliking people's stances. If a group of people are having a disproportionate affect on the health care system and we all agree that hospitals need to top of mind, then you do something about the minority that chose to hog all the ressources!

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Hell I'm 37 and I've gone insane over this despite being able to keep my job.

The damage done to kids to make sure we don't hurt the feelings of the unvaxxed is depressing.

It's not the unvaxxed that are keeping kids out of school, it's lack of foresight on governments' part.

It's honestly insane how people just refuse to accept spread is mostly due to letting vaxxed people do whatever until cases start going up then you resort to "it's all the unvaxxed fault!" when shit inevitably hits the fan.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

What's the average age of parents who have kids between the ages of 0-17? 20-45? Parents were never a high-risk group, even in a pre-vaccinated world. But of course, there were tons of unknowns, so closing schools, temporarily, in March 2020, made sense.

Today? Vaccinated parents face a microscopic risk from Omicron. And yet, kids aren't in school and extra curricular activities have been cancelled.

Please show me proof of this "microscopic" risk from omicron for vaccinated people.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

It's not the unvaxxed that are keeping kids out of school, it's lack of foresight on governments' part.

It's honestly insane how people just refuse to accept spread is mostly due to letting vaxxed people do whatever until cases start going up then you resort to "it's all the unvaxxed fault!" when shit inevitably hits the fan.

Cases don't matter. Everyone is going to get omicron! That's how pandemics end: the virus mutates to a less dangerous version and we all catch it.

What matters is hospitalizations and the unvaxxed are the ones taking up all the resources which made governments panic.

 

[DaveMatthew]

It's not the unvaxxed that are keeping kids out of school, it's lack of foresight on governments' part.

It's honestly insane how people just refuse to accept spread is mostly due to letting vaxxed people do whatever until cases start going up then you resort to "it's all the unvaxxed fault!" when shit inevitably hits the fan.

Vaccinated people also aren't keeping kids out of school.

The fact of the matter is, Omicron is a mild variant. For the LARGE majority of the population, it poses next to no risk.

But our healthcare system has always been operated on razor thin margins, and we can't handle even a small bump in hospitalizations. And leaders have done zero over the last 21 months to increase capacity. Hell, we've seen an exoduses of front-line staff so we're in an even worse position than we were in March 2020.

We could have, you know, paid nurses more to ensure they stayed? What does Vera Etches make to post tweets? What does a nurse who's actually working in an ICU make?

If you're blaming vaccinated people who went to gyms and restaurants, you're off base.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

We could have, you know, paid nurses more to ensure they stayed? What does Vera Etches make to post tweets? What does a nurse who's actually working in an ICU make?

We'd have to do something about doctors earning 400k right after they are done school.

So basically, that ain't ever happening.

 

[Beech]

I cannot imagine what it's like to be a school age child right now. Socialization has basically been suspended indefinitely.

From 1939-1945, a World war raged. It involved millions of people. Death tolls range from 20-60 million. We in North America were spared. The fighting took place on all continents except here (Pearl Harbor aside).

If you lived in London, you would have been bombed fairly regularly. You would have spent 1940-1942 in real fear of an invasion. Your would have lived in real fear of terrorist attacks. You would have seen your Father march off to war with a good 10% chance that he would not return. No means to make money, you may have darn near starved to death. By 1943, the v1 and v2 was raining on you. If 12 in 1939, you would have been 18 in 1945 and off to war you went. To participate in the last few months, when fighting was intense and death rates were high.

At the end, Britain along with all of Europe endured an economic hardship that was crippling. It took the Marshall plan (please read up on it) to save Europe.

And the beauty is: by July 1945, the Americans had project Trinity and an atomic bomb was detonated. Leaving Europeans to spend the next 50 years with nuclear uncertainty and living on the front lines of the East/West conflict. Never knowing when all hell will break loose.

School aged today, versus 1939!!! those kids in 1939 survived, flourished and became humanity's most successful generation. They put a man on the moon in 1969, evolved medicine to heights we have never seen and advanced things in quantum leaps over all generations before them.

Humanity's golden generation was born between 1920 and 1940 and endured way more...Now think of the 80 and above that covid is trying to massacre.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Please show me proof of this "microscopic" risk from omicron for vaccinated people.

There has not been a single person under the age of 60, who's been vaccinated, that's been admitted to an Ottawa hospital due to the Omicron variant. Out of thousands of reported cases. Actual cases are likely significantly higher as many people don't go to get a PCR test.

Please show me proof that Omicron poses a significant risk of hospitalization to young and middle-aged adults who are double vaccinated.

 

[DaveMatthew]

From 1939-1945, a World war raged. It involved millions of people. Death tolls range from 20-60 million. We in North America were spared. The fighting took place on all continents except here (Pearl Harbor aside).

If you lived in London, you would have been bombed fairly regularly. You would have spent 1940-1942 in real fear of an invasion. Your would have lived in real fear of terrorist attacks. You would have seen your Father march off to war with a good 10% chance that he would not return. No means to make money, you may have darn near starved to death. By 1943, the v1 and v2 was raining on you. If 12 in 1939, you would have been 18 in 1945 and off to war you went. To participate in the last few months, when fighting was intense and death rates were high.

At the end, Britain along with all of Europe endured an economic hardship that was crippling. It took the Marshall plan (please read up on it) to save Europe.

And the beauty is: by July 1945, the Americans had project Trinity and an atomic bomb was detonated. Leaving Europeans to spend the next 50 years with nuclear uncertainty and living on the front lines of the East/West conflict. Never knowing when all hell will break loose.

School aged today, versus 1939!!! those kids in 1939 survived, flourished and became humanity's most successful generation. They put a man on the moon in 1969, evolved medicine to heights we have never seen and advanced things in quantum leaps over all generations before them.

Humanity's golden generation was born between 1920 and 1940 and endured way more...Now think of the 80 and above that covid is trying to massacre.

https://uh.edu/~adkugler/Ichino&Winter-Ebmer.pdf

Austrian and German individuals who were 10 years old during the conflict, or were more directly involved through their parents, received less education than comparable individuals from nonwar countries, such as Switzerland and Sweden. We also show that these individuals experienced a sizable earnings loss some 40 years after the war, which can be attributed to the educational loss caused by the conflict.

The World War severely impacted children, especially in the hardest hit countries.

In Canada, we've decided to close schools for longer than many other places, while also imposing stricter restrictions when schools have been open. Our kids will be much more disadvantaged as a result.

A grade 3 middle-class student in Florida is ~1.5 years ahead of a grade 3 middle-class student in Ontario.

 

[Mingus Dew]

From 1939-1945, a World war raged. It involved millions of people. Death tolls range from 20-60 million. We in North America were spared. The fighting took place on all continents except here (Pearl Harbor aside).

If you lived in London, you would have been bombed fairly regularly. You would have spent 1940-1942 in real fear of an invasion. Your would have lived in real fear of terrorist attacks. You would have seen your Father march off to war with a good 10% chance that he would not return. No means to make money, you may have darn near starved to death. By 1943, the v1 and v2 was raining on you. If 12 in 1939, you would have been 18 in 1945 and off to war you went. To participate in the last few months, when fighting was intense and death rates were high.

At the end, Britain along with all of Europe endured an economic hardship that was crippling. It took the Marshall plan (please read up on it) to save Europe.

And the beauty is: by July 1945, the Americans had project Trinity and an atomic bomb was detonated. Leaving Europeans to spend the next 50 years with nuclear uncertainty and living on the front lines of the East/West conflict. Never knowing when all hell will break loose.

School aged today, versus 1939!!! those kids in 1939 survived, flourished and became humanity's most successful generation. They put a man on the moon in 1969, evolved medicine to heights we have never seen and advanced things in quantum leaps over all generations before them.

Humanity's golden generation was born between 1920 and 1940 and endured way more...Now think of the 80 and above that covid is trying to massacre.

Fair enough although the disruptions we're talking about are somewhat different. The hardships posed to children by war and economic collapse are not trivial but they are not analogous to the hardships posed by interruptions in the socialization process. The latter goes to the core of what it means to be a human being in Western society.

Edit: we can also quibble about whether that generation was humanity's "golden generation". I generally agree with you, though.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Also a very simple stat that a lot of people seem to struggle with:

There are far more vaxxed than unvaxxed, so while numbers of vaxxed people who need hospital care is slowly rising, the percentage they represent of the group is very small.

If there are 10 000 vaxxed and 500 unvaxxed but out of 100 hospital cases, there is a 50/50 split of vaxxed/unvaxxed then the numbers are quite clear: most vaxxed people are going to be fine and if the unvaxxed weren't hogging all the beds, we could handle a rise in vaxxed people needing hospital care.

Alas, that would require treating people who chose to be pro-covid as such.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Fair enough although the disruptions we're talking about are somewhat different. The hardships posed to children by war and economic collapse are not trivial but they are not analogous to the hardships posed by interruptions in the socialization process. The latter goes to the core of what it means to be a human being in Western society.

Edit: we can also quibble about whether that generation was humanity's "golden generation". I generally agree with you, though.

Kids who grew up during WWII still went to school and could hang out at the friend's houses.

 

[DaveMatthew]

We'd have to do something about doctors earning 400k right after they are done school.

So basically, that ain't ever happening.

Fun fact:

Vera Etches $369,834 in 2020, a 43% increase over 2019.

The average nurse in Ontario made ~$75,000 (including overtime) and did not receive a substantial pay bump.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Fun fact:

Vera Etches $369,834 in 2020, a 43% increase over 2019.

The average nurse in Ontario made ~$75,000 (including overtime) and did not receive a substantial pay bump.

Ottawa's officer of health makes 370 kilos?!

Wild.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Fun fact:

Vera Etches $369,834 in 2020, a 43% increase over 2019.

The average nurse in Ontario made ~$75,000 (including overtime) and did not receive a substantial pay bump.

On top of not being treated very well!

The pandemic has shown we probably need less doctors and more nurses.

 

[Ice-Tray]

In my opinion, the lengths we go to save each life reflects the type of people we are.

Yes there are consequences to children at school, though children are very resilient. There are consequences in hospitals, and the bulk of this vast burden is being carried by health care workers across the country.

We will survive skipping leg day for a month in favour of going for a walk, and kids will bounce back from masks and cancelled play dates, but all of those that died won’t get that chance.

Sure, we know that people will die, but our country and culture is defined by how far we go to protect each life, no matter how frail, and our approach to the managing this pandemic is a reflection of this ideology.

I’m proud to be a part of a society that when push came to shove we chose life over dollars.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Ottawa's officer of health makes 370 kilos?!

Wild.

A friend of mine recently became a psychiatrist in QC and his starting salary is 400k!!

He'll end up making close to a million by the time he retires.

It is completely insane.

 

[Ice-Tray]

On top of not being treated very well!

The pandemic has shown we probably need less doctors and more nurses.

Yeah no. We need a ton more of both, especially GPS.

You simply cannot get a GP in BC right now.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Yeah no. We need a ton more of both, especially GPS.

You simply cannot get a GP in BC right now.

A good nurse could do most of what a GP does.

 

[Micklebot]

Fun fact:

Vera Etches $369,834 in 2020, a 43% increase over 2019.

The average nurse in Ontario made ~$75,000 (including overtime) and did not receive a substantial pay bump.

Comparing executive pay and employee pay in this way is pretty misleading, of course the average employee did not see a significant increase in their pay rate, that's not how typical unionized jobs compensation works.

 

[Caeldan]

Then update it... It's very interesting to me. Only on this forum do I see mass voluntary compliance and no questioning what's happening. Everywhere else its being questioned. Only place in the world with lock downs right now is Canada. Even Australia with cases going up has moved out of lock downs.

A simple Google search shows that is an incorrect statement:
Covid Omicron: European nations reinstate restrictions

OH and advice from the South Africa lead on lessons learned after nearly six weeks of an omicron peak:

" It's about physical distance, ventilation, wearing masks in public and being vaccinated and to be vigilant and to continue to do surveillance in your country to make sure that you can pick up any variant that is emerging in your country."

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Comparing executive pay and employee pay in this way is pretty misleading, of course the average employee did not see a significant increase in their pay rate, that's not how typical unionized jobs compensation works.

Sure the direct comparison is wonky but it still points to a structural issue that needs to be addressed.

 

[dumbdick]

Cases don't matter. Everyone is going to get omicron! That's how pandemics end: the virus mutates to a less dangerous version and we all catch it.

Tell that to smallpox.

 

[Micklebot]

Ottawa's officer of health makes 370 kilos?!

Wild.

Apparently that's the going rate

https://www.erieri.com/salary/job/chief-medical-officer/canada

 

[Ice-Tray]

A good nurse could do most of what a GP does.

Perhaps, and I can do most of what a mechanic can do, but there is something to be said about the depth of education and the knowledge base. Not all doctors are layabouts that get in the way of hard working nurses.

I love my nurses, don’t get me wrong here, but we actually need more doctors, as well, and more of them to do the boring and less lucrative stuff like GPing.

My family has been using Telus Babylon for a few a while now. It’s what BC is using right now to cover the shortage. I regularly speak to doctors from the GTA and Montreal….