Lidstrom vs. Bourque vs. Potvin

[Dark Shadows]

Im not saying they, you or anyone are really wrong about this. We all know and agree on that Yzerman clearly wasnt a defensive juggernaut. I also agree that he made risky plays but I cound them to his offesive game as he had to be creative or nothing would happen. Im just saying that its like some people on here think, that he were terrible defensively because he wasnt.

In any case, This topic is getting so far off it's original course that I am just going to abstain from starting yet another.

Seems like the past few pages have all been about Crosby vs Yzerman and Lemieux/Gretzky's ability to play in today's game instead of Potvin/Lidstrom/Bourque

 

[Infinite Vision*]

There really aren't many players with the resume Jagr has.. we can question his moodiness etc. all we want but the fact is he was amazing in spite of that stuff.

We can say that the separation between players at the higher levels is very small but still.. Hull is 5 and Jagr is 23 on the 2009 list...

Still, it's so hard to compare players from pre-expansion to more recent times in any meaningful fashion.

If you do points or adjusted points those are pretty poor methods of comparing because of games played and equipment and rule changes.. if you do finishes its a joke because in a 6 team league the players that have a legitimate opportunity at some of the trophies is a tiny pool of players.

This.

It's funny to see posters on the main board try to justify the point difference.

I don't get your point here. Jagr had 123 points in 05-06 in 82 games. Outscored by Thornton in one more game by 2 points. Crosby had 120 points in 06-07 in 79 games, and scoring dropped that year due to less powerplays from players getting more accustomed to the new rules. Outscored Thornton in three less games by 6 points. Youngest scoring leader in North American pro sports history. Not to mention, Crosby had considerably worse linemates than Jagr in each of their respective seasons. That was at worst Jagr's 6th best season ever, and the best one since 00-01 when Lemieux showed up hafway through the season. It's not like he was just getting worse from 2001 on. He obviously made significant changes during the lockout season to get back up to his potential in 05-06. He was 33, not too old this day in age.

My main point here is not that Crosby's better, because even I'm not sure of that. But come on, atleast admit it's close.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

This is the best argument to make against Crosby and Ovechkin (and soon Stamkos) being "generational players".

Jagr was one of those to have 120 points post lockout and that was on the downside of his career.

How can they be generational talents when a past his prime guy who generally isn't considered quite at that level isn't?

Oh, logic.

I mean they might end up being a generational type talent but the odds are they won't. And certainly we won't know for another 5 years.

This is the post I meant to quote in the post above.

 

[Unaffiliated]

I don't get your point here. Jagr had 123 points in 05-06 in 82 games. Outscored by Thornton in one more game by 2 points. Crosby had 120 points in 06-07 in 79 games, and scoring dropped that year due to less powerplays from players getting more accustomed to the new rules. Outscored Thornton in three less games by 6 points. Youngest scoring leader in North American pro sports history. Not to mention, Crosby had considerably worse linemates than Jagr in each of their respective seasons. That was at worst Jagr's 6th best season ever, and the best one since 00-01 when Lemieux showed up hafway through the season. It's not like he was just getting worse from 2001 on. He obviously made significant changes during the lockout season to get back up to his potential in 05-06. He was 33, not too old this day in age.

My main point here is not that Crosby's better, because even I'm not sure of that. But come on, atleast admit it's close.

My point is that the best Crosby has ever been so far is at best arguably equal to Jagr's "6th best" season, and not close to Jagr's peak.

This is the post I meant to quote in the post above.

Just edit it in

 

[Rhiessan71]

Has anyone been saying Crosby is on the same level as Gretzky or Lemieux in their first 5 years? I don't remember reading it, but could have missed it. I know for sure I have said nothing of the sort, because he definitely is not at that level.

You did miss it.
Hardyvan123 started this whole mess off by stating that Crosby's skillset and talent is on par with Gretzky's and Lemieux's, having already passed all other players in that regard.
Back on like page 5 or 6.


I'm not going to continue arguing over Yzerman's early defensive play as Dark mentioned, it has been done to death already around here with no one changing their minds on either side anyway heh.

 

[pluppe]

I don't get your point here. Jagr had 123 points in 05-06 in 82 games. Outscored by Thornton in one more game by 2 points. Crosby had 120 points in 06-07 in 79 games, and scoring dropped that year due to less powerplays from players getting more accustomed to the new rules. Outscored Thornton in three less games by 6 points. Youngest scoring leader in North American pro sports history. Not to mention, Crosby had considerably worse linemates than Jagr in each of their respective seasons. That was at worst Jagr's 6th best season ever, and the best one since 00-01 when Lemieux showed up hafway through the season. It's not like he was just getting worse from 2001 on. He obviously made significant changes during the lockout season to get back up to his potential in 05-06. He was 33, not too old this day in age.

My main point here is not that Crosby's better, because even I'm not sure of that. But come on, atleast admit it's close.

tell me, when do you believe forwards peak in offensive production? since you seem to say Lemieux and Jagr were still at theirs in their mid thirties.

because I am sure I have seen a graph of that somewhere. maybe someone could dig it up?

 

[Hardyvan123]

You did miss it.
Hardyvan123 started this whole mess off by stating that Crosby's skillset and talent is on par with Gretzky's and Lemieux's, having already passed all other players in that regard.
Back on like page 5 or 6.


I'm not going to continue arguing over Yzerman's early defensive play as Dark mentioned, it has been done to death already around here with no one changing their minds on either side anyway heh.

Looks like the Kid has been reading your posts and trying to change your mind with his play lately.

Lidstrom is having quite possibly the best age 40 dman of all time which is adding to his legacy in the original question.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Looks like the Kid has been reading your posts and trying to change your mind with his play lately.

Dude....just give it up already.

NO ONE is saying Crosby isn't a great player but he's no where close to Gretz or Mario and unless he puts up 5-6 straight 170+ seasons, neither my mind or the vast majority of anyone else's is going to be changed.

Please just stop the ignorance.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Dude....just give it up already.

NO ONE is saying Crosby isn't a great player but he's no where close to Gretz or Mario and unless he puts up 5-6 straight 170+ seasons, neither my mind or the vast majority of anyone else's is going to be changed.

Please just stop the ignorance.

Let's get real no one, and that includes Wayne and Mario would score 170 points a season today never mind for 5 or 6 straight seasons.

For the record Wayne did it (scored 170)in 6 seasons and Mario only once when it was easier to score in the NHL.

Maybe one day you might actually acknowledge that last point?

Then again maybe not.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Let's get real no one, and that includes Wayne and Mario would score 170 points a season today never mind for 5 or 6 straight seasons.

In your opinion my friend and believe me, it's in the minority.
The really telling thing though is that you will not find anyone that at least won't acknowledge that if it could be done today, it would only be Gretz or Mario capable of doing it.
NO ONE is going to give Crosby that acknowledgment and that should tell you all you need to know on the subject.
Game, set, match my friend.

For the record Wayne did it (scored 170)in 6 seasons and Mario only once when it was easier to score in the NHL.Maybe one day you might actually acknowledge that last point?

Then again maybe not.

Of course Gretzky almost had another 3 seasons where he almost did, making that 9 seasons of 160+ including 7 in a row
Mario only broke 170 once because of injuries, not because he wasn't capable of it heh and still broke 160 4 times total and was on pace for more including a couple seasons in 190-200+ range.

Honestly, your ignorance is laughable.

 

[Unaffiliated]

Let's get real no one, and that includes Wayne and Mario would score 170 points a season today never mind for 5 or 6 straight seasons.

For the record Wayne did it (scored 170)in 6 seasons and Mario only once when it was easier to score in the NHL.

Maybe one day you might actually acknowledge that last point?

Then again maybe not.

When you have no one on your side on something like this, it's a HINTY HINT HINT that you might be wrong.

 

[Hardyvan123]

When you have no one on your side on something like this, it's a HINTY HINT HINT that you might be wrong.

Or maybe it's a nostalgia section. no one is scoring 170 points in today's game with the pads and flow of the game ie everyone blocking shots, coaching ect... to say otherwise is to make a mockery of the game and the way it is played differently in different seasons especially ones 30 years apart.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Or maybe it's a nostalgia section. no one is scoring 170 points in today's game with the pads and flow of the game ie everyone blocking shots, coaching ect... to say otherwise is to make a mockery of the game and the way it is played differently in different seasons especially ones 30 years apart.

Due to the fact that there are no Gretzky's or Lemieux's in the league right now.

It was harder to score 10 years ago than it is now due to the mass clutching and grabbing and almost every team trapping, yet a no longer in his prime Lemieux scored 35 goals and 76 points in 43 games, on pace for 145 points.

And yes, we are going to continually bring up that example of how far ahead of the pack he was.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Or maybe it's a nostalgia section.

The "What works in EA's NHL 2011" section is that way------>

 

[jkrx]

The "What works in EA's NHL 2011" section is that way------>

To be honest. That made me giggle.

 

[Derick*]

Scoring hadn't gone down in 07. That didn't happen until 08.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Scoring hadn't gone down in 07. That didn't happen until 08.

You have the link to that thread detailing league scoring by year?
I lost my link and tried searching for it the other day with no success.

Thanks in advance.

One thing I did find from one of my previous posts was about how league scoring in 05/06 was almost on par with league scoring in 95/96.

League scoring average per game:
95/96 = 6.29 goals per game
05/06 = 6.05

I was trying to find a post lockout year that was closest in overall scoring to a relatively healthy 95/96 Mario that was for all intent and purposes still in his prime.

Joe Thornton led the league in scoring in 05/06 with 125 points in 81 games or 1.54 ppg (127 over 82)
Lemieux led the league in scoring in 95/96 with 161 points in just 70 games or 2.3 ppg (189 over 82)

Toss in Mario's past his prime with a bad back 00/01 season of 76 points in 43 games for reference and it just makes sense.

And what did a 35 year old Gretzky do that year you ask....102 points including 81 assists in 80 games, that's at 35 not 25 folks.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Scoring hadn't gone down in 07. That didn't happen until 08.

Wrong. It went from 6.17 in 05-06, to 5.89 in 06-07, to 5.57 in 07-08.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

In your opinion my friend and believe me, it's in the minority.
The really telling thing though is that you will not find anyone that at least won't acknowledge that if it could be done today, it would only be Gretz or Mario capable of doing it.
NO ONE is going to give Crosby that acknowledgment and that should tell you all you need to know on the subject.
Game, set, match my friend.



Of course Gretzky almost had another 3 seasons where he almost did, making that 9 seasons of 160+ including 7 in a row
Mario only broke 170 once because of injuries, not because he wasn't capable of it heh and still broke 160 4 times total and was on pace for more including a couple seasons in 190-200+ range.

Honestly, your ignorance is laughable.

Says the guy who doesn't realize hockey changes overtime and still think's Yzerman was better than Crosby?

Anyways, was just watching a Lemieux game from his comeback season. Amazing, but honestly no way he comes into today's league and top's 160 points, and that's healthy with all the advantages and time imaginable to get used to the game.

The game has changed tremendously since 2001, but hey, I'm not going to convince you it's even changed since the 80's so what's the point.

Sit down and watch an entire game now, then one from 10 years ago, or any game before the lockout. Do it with your blindfold off, your glasses on, and your eyes wide open and you might notice something.

Or I could let you in on a little secret, hockey changes (ie. gets better) a long with everything else in life. Get use to it, because I guess you haven't already.

 

[jkrx]

Says the guy who doesn't realize hockey changes overtime and still think's Yzerman was better than Crosby?

Anyways, was just watching a Lemieux game from his comeback season. Amazing, but honestly no way he comes into today's league and top's 160 points, and that's healthy with all the advantages and time imaginable to get used to the game.

The game has changed tremendously since 2001, but hey, I'm not going to convince you it's even changed since the 80's so what's the point.

Sit down and watch an entire game now, then one from 10 years ago, or any game before the lockout. Do it with your blindfold off, your glasses on, and your eyes wide open and you might notice something.

Or I could let you in on a little secret, hockey changes (ie. gets better) a long with everything else in life. Get use to it, because I guess you haven't already.

You actually believe that Crosby is already a ~top 40 player of all-time? That he has already been and done more than Tretiak, Coffey, Park, Conacher, Yzerman, Malone, Clancy, Chelios, Geoffrion etc. has been and done for hockey?

 

[Rhiessan71]

Says the guy who doesn't realize hockey changes overtime and still think's Yzerman was better than Crosby?

Funny, I thought I said that Crosby hasn't taken Stevie's spot on the all-time list after only 5 years.

Anyways, was just watching a Lemieux game from his comeback season. Amazing, but honestly no way he comes into today's league and top's 160 points, and that's healthy with all the advantages and time imaginable to get used to the game.

Who's going to stop him??? We're talking about a guy that made hall of fame players like Bourque, Lidstrom, Chelios, Stevens, Roy and Hasek look silly. Seriously, who the hell is going to stop him today?

..and seriously, you're talking about a 35-36 year old Mario with a bad back and using THAT as your basis....y-o-u h-a-v-e g-o-t t-o b-e k-i-d-d-i-n-g m-e!!!
A 35/36 year old Lemieux that STILL led the league in PPG and was only 5 goals and 13 points out of the top 10 in both categories despite only playing 43 freakin games....really?

The game has changed tremendously since 2001, but hey, I'm not going to convince you it's even changed since the 80's so what's the point.

Sit down and watch an entire game now, then one from 10 years ago, or any game before the lockout. Do it with your blindfold off, your glasses on, and your eyes wide open and you might notice something.

Or I could let you in on a little secret, hockey changes (ie. gets better) a long with everything else in life. Get use to it, because I guess you haven't already.

Do you even listen to the crap you're spouting here?
You think the game is more defensive now than it was 10 years ago when you didn't even have to skate with your man, you just latched onto him?
Have players changed that much in the last 20 years? I got news for ya chum, guys like Bourque and Lidstrom, just to name two, destroy that kind of thinking in a quick hurry.

The systems change, coaching changes but talent is still talent and instinct is still instinct. Gretzky being a mile ahead of the play and making impossible passes would still be Gretzky a mile ahead of the play and making impossible passes, Lemieux making people look silly would still be Lemieux making people look silly.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Says the guy who doesn't realize hockey changes overtime and still think's Yzerman was better than Crosby?

Anyways, was just watching a Lemieux game from his comeback season. Amazing, but honestly no way he comes into today's league and top's 160 points, and that's healthy with all the advantages and time imaginable to get used to the game.

The game has changed tremendously since 2001, but hey, I'm not going to convince you it's even changed since the 80's so what's the point.

Sit down and watch an entire game now, then one from 10 years ago, or any game before the lockout. Do it with your blindfold off, your glasses on, and your eyes wide open and you might notice something.

Or I could let you in on a little secret, hockey changes (ie. gets better) a long with everything else in life. Get use to it, because I guess you haven't already.

Change does not equate to better.

Maybe when you've experienced life a little longer you will understand that.

 

[danincanada]

Funny, I thought I said that Crosby hasn't taken Stevie's spot on the all-time list after only 5 years.

Who's going to stop him??? We're talking about a guy that made hall of fame players like Bourque, Lidstrom, Chelios, Stevens, Roy and Hasek look silly. Seriously, who the hell is going to stop him today?

..and seriously, you're talking about a 35-36 year old Mario with a bad back and using THAT as your basis....y-o-u h-a-v-e g-o-t t-o b-e k-i-d-d-i-n-g m-e!!!
A 35/36 year old Lemieux that STILL led the league in PPG and was only 5 goals and 13 points out of the top 10 in both categories despite only playing 43 freakin games....really?

Do you even listen to the crap you're spouting here?
You think the game is more defensive now than it was 10 years ago when you didn't even have to skate with your man, you just latched onto him?
Have players changed that much in the last 20 years? I got news for ya chum, guys like Bourque and Lidstrom, just to name two, destroy that kind of thinking in a quick hurry.

The systems change, coaching changes but talent is still talent and instinct is still instinct. Gretzky being a mile ahead of the play and making impossible passes would still be Gretzky a mile ahead of the play and making impossible passes, Lemieux making people look silly would still be Lemieux making people look silly.

You are completely delusional if you don't think the game evolves and becomes more competitive every year, especially with it now being more of an international league with more athletes to choose from. Do you think Swedish hockey has grown over the last 50 years? How about the Germans, are they producing better players than they did 20 years ago? If you answer yes to either of those questions, which you should, than you have to agree the NHL is a better league than it was years ago. There is simply a greater talent pool than ever before and therefore it's logical to conclude that the players are better than ever and this will probably continue in the future.

I'm Canadian but you guys just reek of Canadian bias. You want to look back at all of these Canadian greats who really only competed against other Canadians and try to preserve their place in history as the best. According to the "experts" on this board none of the 3 greatest dmen of all time (Orr, Shore, Harvey) played within the last 35 years...oh, and by the way they were all Canadian. Funny how that works considering there weren't many European players in the league back then to compete with or compare to.

The question to me is not whether the NHL has become more competitive but how much more and how can we factor that in over the years in these comparisons everyone loves. Very difficult to figure out but the flat out denial of any change by some of you is absurd.

I agree, this should be called the Nostalgia Section cause you guys are talking about the history of hockey with your blindfolds on most of the time.

 

[Rhiessan71]

You are completely delusional if you don't think the game evolves and becomes more competitive every year, especially with it now being more of an international league with more athletes to choose from. Do you think Swedish hockey has grown over the last 50 years? How about the Germans, are they producing better players than they did 20 years ago? If you answer yes to either of those questions, which you should, than you have to agree the NHL is a better league than it was years ago. There is simply a greater talent pool than ever before and therefore it's logical to conclude that the players are better than ever and this will probably continue in the future.

I'm Canadian but you guys just reek of Canadian bias. You want to look back at all of these Canadian greats who really only competed against other Canadians and try to preserve their place in history as the best. According to the "experts" on this board none of the 3 greatest dmen of all time (Orr, Shore, Harvey) played within the last 35 years...oh, and by the way they were all Canadian. Funny how that works considering there weren't many European players in the league back then to compete with or compare to.

The question to me is not whether the NHL has become more competitive but how much more and how can we factor that in over the years in these comparisons everyone loves. Very difficult to figure out but the flat out denial of any change by some of you is absurd.

I agree, this should be called the Nostalgia Section cause you guys are talking about the history of hockey with your blindfolds on most of the time.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise Lidstrom and Chelios were Canadian
Coulda swore I included both of them in my post.
Coulda also swore I posted something about how I don't think Crosby is even on Jagr's level yet, another "Canadian" I might add

Gimme a break, talent is talent, Gretzky and Lemieux had more than anyone and it wouldn't matter how systems or coaching change, their talent would still shine above all others.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Change does not equate to better.

Maybe when you've experienced life a little longer you will understand that.

Nope your wrong. It changes, and gets better. Sorry you like to live in the past.