Lidstrom vs. Bourque vs. Potvin

[WingedWheel]

Reading that top 10 dmen thread, and seeing lidstrom at 5 or lower on almost everyone's list completely appalled me.

I encourage anyone to make a good argument in why they think Bourque or Potvin (personally think Bourque and Lidstrom are better than Potvin, with no disrespect to Potvin, great dman) were better Dman than Lidstrom.

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[Dreakmur]

I've got Lidstrom ahead of Potvin but behind Bourque.

I just think the length of Bouque's peak is too tough to beat. If Lidstrom can put together another 3 or 4 years as a top-5 or maybe top-10 defensemen, he'd be closing in.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Pretty much in the same boat as Dreakmur.
I also have Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin 4, 5 and 6.

Unfortunately for Lidstrom, in my book I have Potvin closer to Lidstrom than Lidstrom to Bourque.

Just really hard for me to ever have Lidstrom catch up to Bourque overall given Ray's competition, Hart votes and almost 2 decades worth of being not only a top 1-2 D-man in the league but also his teams' MVP almost every single year.

I mean hell, as a Habs fan, I absolutely hate the Bruins and didn't enjoy facing Bourque all those years.
Yet there I was cheering as much as was humanly possible for me to for something/someone non Habs/Canada related to get his Cup ring.

Bourque imo had both higher competition to be judged against and wasn't any where close as insulated by superior teams as Lidstrom.

 

[Reds4Life]

I'd add Shore and Harvey to the mix to make the comparison is even more interesting. How can you compare Shore and Lidstrom? Impossible without bias one way or the other. These top10 lists are always biased no matter how hard you try to adjust this and that. Fun to do, but it should be taken with a grain of salt.

I'd take Lidstrom over any defenseman not named Orr and maybe Bourque, but Ray and Nick are very close in my book, so who knows after this season.

Competition argument is biased too, you can't just look at the names of the other defensemen. You must add forwards, goalies, coaches, rules, games and time played etc. to the mix as well.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Bourque. Better peak seasons, his prime was better and lasted longer, as crazy as that sounds. I've never liked the competition argument, I think it's largely overblown. Fact is Bourque was just better, and for longer, regardless of competition.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Peak Value - Potvin
Career Value - Bourque

 

[lextune]

You can argue/debate Lidstrom and Potvin back and forth all day. It's the peak vs. prime vs. longevity argument, and your own subjective opinion of which you value more.

Bourque is not in the conversation, because he is a notable step above both of them.

 

[BraveCanadian]

The longer Lidstrom keeps playing and excelling the harder it is to keep saying Bourque is a notch higher.

In my books they are getting closer to equal all the time. Lidstrom better defensively and Bourque better offensively.

Lidstrom has been a top tier defenseman for 15 years now too so the longevity mark is working in his favour as well as Bourque's now.

 

[lazerbullet]

In my opinion longevity is also not an argument, why pick Bourque over Lidström.

Bourque's last season was 2000/01. So he was 39 in October. Hit 40 in December and retired at that age.

Lidström is 40 right now and will be 41 in April. He just started his career later than Ray. Probably because he is from Europe (how many Euros started to play right after they were drafted? Not many) and he was drafted by the Red Wings (they never rush prospects).

Counting Hart votes is also not the best way to judge these players. Lidström never received many votes, because he played for powerhouse Detroit. But reality is... Lidström was the best player on the best team for many years. That must be worth something. And before somebody brings out Yzerman, Fedorov, etc. No, they were not better than Lidström. Lidas took over around their 2nd Cup win and was consistently the best player in Detroit until 2008/09, when Datsyuk took over.

And if somebody wants to use an old argument, that Lidström played for strong Detroit and Ray for mediocre Bruins, then have a though... was Ray Bourque instantly a lesser player when he was traded to Colorado? Of course not. He was as good as in previous years.

I consider them as equal as two players can be. Both overall strong players in every aspect of the game. Lidström took a bit less chances and Bourque a bit more.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

In the last voting, Shore dropped below Harvey, and rightfully so IMO.
I'm beginning to question whether he should be ahead of Bourque and Lidstrom, to be honest.
Shore played in a deep era, but not as deep as the Original 6 would become and not as deep as the NHL is now with Euros and over 15 years with no expansion.

No question he does not win 4 Harts if the Norris trophy was around, though he probably would have about 6 Norris trophies - definitely a clear step up from Potvin.

He won only 2 Cups in a 6-team league which I consider a bit underwhelming.
He was also a 1st Team or 2nd Team All-Star 8 times, which is great, but well behind Bourque with 19 and Lidstrom with 12 (and still going).

 

[BM67]

He won only 2 Cups in a 6-team league which I consider a bit underwhelming.

Shore never played in a 6 team NHL. They had 10 teams in his first year and 7 teams in his last. The Un-Original-6 came a couple of years later.

 

[seventieslord]

No question he does not win 4 Harts if the Norris trophy was around, though he probably would have about 6 Norris trophies - definitely a clear step up from Potvin.

I think the actual number of Norrises Shore would have, would be 8 or 9, based on the all-star voting during his career. That includes 1926, when he was likely the best defenseman but was over in the WHL making their first all-star team.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

I think the actual number of Norrises Shore would have, would be 8 or 9, based on the all-star voting during his career. That includes 1926, when he was likely the best defenseman but was over in the WHL making their first all-star team.

He was a 1st Team All-Star 7 times in the NHL but I did not look at the actual voting yet.

Appreciate the earlier correction regarding number of teams!

Morenz gets bumped down quite a bit because of a weaker era, but Shore seems more immune - despite many contemporaries stating Morenz was better... And Morenz was inducted into the HHoF 2 years earlier.

 

[Dreakmur]

And Morenz was inducted into the HHoF 2 years earlier.

Shore played 3 years longer than Morenz.... so Shore was actually inducted faster.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The longer Lidstrom keeps playing and excelling the harder it is to keep saying Bourque is a notch higher.

In my books they are getting closer to equal all the time. Lidstrom better defensively and Bourque better offensively.

I, for one, agree. At this point, Bourque is definitely ahead, but Lidstrom needs to be reevaluated at the end of his career.

Lidstrom has been a top tier defenseman for 15 years now too so the longevity mark is working in his favour as well as Bourque's now.

Disagree here. Bourque was a top defenseman from the moment he stepped onto the ice, while Lidstrom took some time to adjust.

Lidstrom: 11 Post Season All-Star Teams (9 First Team All Stars, 2 Second Team)
Bourque: 19 Post Season All-Star Teams (13 First Team All Stars, 6 Second Team)

Is this unfairly punishing Lidstrom for taking a few years to adjust to the North American game? It's worth thinking about.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In the last voting, Shore dropped below Harvey, and rightfully so IMO.
I'm beginning to question whether he should be ahead of Bourque and Lidstrom, to be honest.
Shore played in a deep era, but not as deep as the Original 6 would become and not as deep as the NHL is now with Euros and over 15 years with no expansion.

No question he does not win 4 Harts if the Norris trophy was around, though he probably would have about 6 Norris trophies - definitely a clear step up from Potvin.

He won only 2 Cups in a 6-team league which I consider a bit underwhelming.
He was also a 1st Team or 2nd Team All-Star 8 times, which is great, but well behind Bourque with 19 and Lidstrom with 12 (and still going).

I'm actually starting to agree with this line of thinking (though I voted Shore over Harvey last time, I'm a full convert to Harvey as #2 now). Add to the fact that apparently Shore hurt his team in the playoffs several times with undisciplined play (his PIMs rise dramatically in the playoffs), and I start to wonder just what is it that makes Shore better than Bourque?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Shore played 3 years longer than Morenz.... so Shore was actually inducted faster.

Morenz was in in inaugural class of 1945, so it's not like he could have been inducted any sooner.

That said, it appears the class of 1945 was mainly to honor hockey players who died young, so I'm not sure if much can be gathered from it.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Disagree here. Bourque was a top defenseman from the moment he stepped onto the ice, while Lidstrom took some time to adjust.

Lidstrom: 11 Post Season All-Star Teams (9 First Team All Stars, 2 Second Team)
Bourque: 19 Post Season All-Star Teams (13 First Team All Stars, 6 Second Team)

Is this unfairly punishing Lidstrom for taking a few years to adjust to the North American game? It's worth thinking about.

You might be right but I think by 95-96 (his 5th season) he was really hitting his stride he just wasn't getting attention yet because of his style of play.

Hard to believe that is 15 years ago now...

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

You can argue/debate Lidstrom and Potvin back and forth all day. It's the peak vs. prime vs. longevity argument, and your own subjective opinion of which you value more.

Bourque is not in the conversation, because he is a notable step above both of them.

This. Lidstrom and Potvin are different, but roughly equal. Bourque matches Potvin's peak, but destroys him in longevity. And Lidstrom is similar to Bourque all-round but a step behind in most facets.

 

[habsfan87]

Am I the only one who thinks Lidstrom is just a tad over-rated? I have him behind both Bourque and Potvin. His health and longevity have been superhuman, but I'm not convincend he's even a lot better than Pronger or Niedermayer.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Am I the only one who thinks Lidstrom is just a tad over-rated? I have him behind both Bourque and Potvin. His health and longevity have been superhuman, but I'm not convincend he's even a lot better than Pronger or Niedermayer.

Niedermayer really doesn't belong in the conversation. He was a great defencemen with a fantastic resume, but he doesn't compare to Lidstrom. Lidstrom was better offensively and defensively, both consistently and when they were at their best.

Lidstrom has without question consistently been better than Pronger. If you want to look at peaks only, then sure, you can make an argument for Pronger's Hart season as well as his 2006 postseason. But if Pronger had been able to maintain those levels of play for his entire career, then he'd also be in this Top 5 discussion.

 

[Big Phil]

You can argue/debate Lidstrom and Potvin back and forth all day. It's the peak vs. prime vs. longevity argument, and your own subjective opinion of which you value more.

Bourque is not in the conversation, because he is a notable step above both of them.

This ^^^^^

No disrespect to Potvin, but Bourque was better. Ditto for Lidstrom. Hammer out the details of Potvin vs. Lidstrom if you want. I think Potvin had the better peak for sure, but Lidstrom's career has him beat in longevity and there is something telling for a guy who has been elite for nearly 15 years. Potvin was elite for 15 years too, but that was his whole career. Lidstrom has played another 5 on top of that. These two make a good comparison.

Bourque was a first team all-star his rookie season and his final season. Then he had 17 more 1st or 2nd all-star selections in between. How can you compete with that. Plus the eye test says Bourque 8 days a week. He was dominant at both ends, he stood out more than Lidstrom, he was often the best offensive player on his team and he did this with Don Sweeney (?) being the next best defenseman on his team, let's say for the bulk of his career.

Lidstrom on the other hand was never "robbed" of a Hart. Never even nominated. Bourque was. We all know the debate of the 1990 Hart Trophy. Some say Bourque was cheated out of it and it does look rather fishy from a neutral standpoint (nothing against Messier's spectacular 1990 season though).

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Peak Value - Potvin
Career Value - Bourque

Exactly. With Lidstrom behind them both. I actually slip ahead of Lidstrom as well.

 

[seventieslord]

Exactly. With Lidstrom behind them both. I actually slip ahead of Lidstrom as well.

You're that good, are you? How come we've never heard of you?

 

[Briere Up There*]

Yeah wtf, is that you Brad Park?