News Article: Lidstrom says Lemieux was best player he played against

[Bench]

Come on, I wasn't talking about cancer when I was talking there. God. I even made sure to include the idea some injuries are unavoidable. I can't believe I have to address that.

 

[Frk It]

But did he score on his first shift? I think not!

Not like he has more assists than anyone has points or anything.

 

[odin1981]

If I'm a homer, then so be it, but I watched both Lidsdtrom and Bourque, and I'll take Lidstrom any day of the week.

Ray was outstanding at multiple facets of the game, but Nick was simply great at EVERYTHING. He's literally the only defenseman I've ever watched who simply never NEEDED to hit anybody, because they were already rendered ineffective without checking even entering the equation.

If I had to count on a blueliner for a single game, I go with Orr and don't look back. But if I want somebody to build a franchise around for years to come, Nick is #1 in my book. (Disclaimer: I never saw Harvey, Potvin, or Robinson play, so I can't compare Lidas to any of them.)

Harvey was pretty much the O-6 era Lidstrom. One topic that wasn't all if you ain't canadien you suck compared quotes in the HoH from the era greats of each player and took there names away. Then a few posts later the poster came in and added the names in. Both players where scarily similiar in how they where described by their peers.

It was actually a worthy thread to read there I would suggest you find it out via search.

 

[danincanada]

Harvey was pretty much the O-6 era Lidstrom. One topic that wasn't all if you ain't canadien you suck compared quotes from the era greats of each player and took there names away. Then a few posts later the poster came in and added the names in. Both players where scarily similiar in how they where described by their peers.

It was actually a worthy thread to read there I would suggest you find it out via search.

I always thought that as well. Lidstrom and Harvey had very similar careers as they were most dominate a little later in their careers and both won 7 Norris' and were main cogs on teams that won a lot of cups. They both also were more defensive minded than offensive minded.

The problem is that Harvey really did only play in a small pond compared to Lidstrom. The NHL of his era was only Canadians and the players were born before the baby boom so it's very unlikely that the talent pool from Canada was as large as it was afterwards. Lidstrom, on the other hand, had to compete with a much larger Canadian population, and elite American and European dmen. The two eras aren't really comparable in terms of what talent they could draw.

For these reasons, I see no way someone can state that Lidstrom should be ranked behind Harvey. If anyone gets the benefit of a doubt in that comparison it should be Lidstrom cause he almost undoubtably faced a hell of a lot more competition for everything he accomplished. The HOH section on this site can't, or won't, admit this cause I've pointed it out several times and they don't have a decent answer. It's funny too because they also rank Bourque over Lidstrom and a big reason for that, according to them, is that Bourque had tougher competition for the Norris. heh

 

[odin1981]

I always thought that as well. Lidstrom and Harvey had very similar careers as they were most dominate a little later in their careers and both won 7 Norris' and were main cogs on teams that won a lot of cups. They both also were more defensive minded than offensive minded.

The problem is that Harvey really did only play in a small pond compared to Lidstrom. The NHL of his era was only Canadians and the players were born before the baby boom so it's very unlikely that the talent pool from Canada was as large as it was afterwards. Lidstrom, on the other hand, had to compete with a much larger Canadian population, and elite American and European dmen. The two eras aren't really comparable in terms of what talent they could draw.

For these reasons, I see no way someone can state that Lidstrom should be ranked behind Harvey. If anyone gets the benefit of a doubt in that comparison it should be Lidstrom cause he almost undoubtably faced a hell of a lot more competition for everything he accomplished. The HOH section on this site can't, or won't, admit this cause I've pointed it out several times and they don't have a decent answer. It's funny too because they also rank Bourque over Lidstrom and a big reason for that, according to them, is that Bourque had tougher competition for the Norris. heh

To me in all honesty I would rank them both as #a and #b. They where far too similar to differentiate. I would assume Harvey gets put ahead of him often in that he was the "original" player of the type. But they too me are far too similar and too much of a era gap to even try to rank either player better than the other one.

 

[Retire91]

There is a gretzky thread going ont he main board with a lot of Lemuieux vs. Gretzky dialog. I lean Lemuieux becasue of those physical tools. Gretzky's skills were out of this world but Lemuiex was electrifying with the skill and also physical tools to just barrel through the defense. If I had a first overall in an all time draft I would probably take Gretzky though.

 

[danincanada]

To me in all honesty I would rank them both as #a and #b. They where far too similar to differentiate. I would assume Harvey gets put ahead of him often in that he was the "original" player of the type. But they too me are far too similar and too much of a era gap to even try to rank either player better than the other one.

I respect your take on it, and there are a lot of unknowns involved here, but Lidstrom simply played in an era where it was far more difficult to accomplish what he did. It's a bigger feat to win 7 Norris' and have that kind of career when the NHL is a 30 team league with players from all over North America and Europe than a 6 team league with really only Canadians in it. If all else is equal, as it appears in this comparison, the modern player should get the nod.

As far as Mario goes, I wholeheartedly agree with Nick. Lemieux had it all and it would give any defenseman nightmares. The deceptive speed, reach, size, and godly hands were probably the best hockey has seen. Gretzky's goal scoring ability dropped off far more dramatically with age and reduced scoring than Mario.

 

[Frk It]

I'll take the unpopular stance and state Lidstrom won a lot of Norris trophies in an time frame when a lot of luminaries (Bourque, Chelios, Leetch, Coffey, MacGinnis, Blake) were past their prime and the next generation (Karlsonn, Keith, Chara, Weber) were not ready for prime time.

So.... Pronger, Stevens, Niedermayer, Zubov, Ozolinsh are all scrubs?

And Blake was taken 1 year before Lidstrom. Leetch was taken 3 years prior. Not sure why they don't count. Not Lidstrom's fault he had insane longevity.

 

[InjuredChoker]

So.... Pronger, Stevens, Niedermayer, Zubov, Ozolinsh are all scrubs?

And Blake was taken 1 year before Lidstrom. Leetch was taken 3 years prior. Not sure why they don't count. Not Lidstrom's fault he had insane longevity.

stevens was past his offensive prime when lidström hit his stride.

prime coffey, chelios, stevens, macinnis, langway etc. were tougher competition than what lidström had. and bourque had to do it with less, not having top two-way Cs ahead of him for almost all of his career and best coaches too, save two years of dave lewis.

 

[Bench]

stevens was past his offensive prime when lidström hit his stride.

prime coffey, chelios, stevens, macinnis, langway etc. were tougher competition than what lidström had. and bourque had to do it with less, not having top two-way Cs ahead of him for almost all of his career and best coaches too, save two years of dave lewis.

Well, Lidstrom is now getting the Osgood treatment.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Well, Lidstrom is now getting the Osgood treatment.

i forgot add, played ahead of HHOF goaltenders most of his career.

 

[Bench]

i forgot add, played ahead of HHOF goaltenders most of his career.

That's more like it.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I'll take the unpopular stance and state Lidstrom won a lot of Norris trophies in an time frame when a lot of luminaries (Bourque, Chelios, Leetch, Coffey, MacGinnis, Blake) were past their prime and the next generation (Karlsonn, Keith, Chara, Weber) were not ready for prime time. If you roll back Nik's career ten years I don't think he wins 7 times.

Top 10 d-man ever? I'd say so, but the above reason is my argument against him being in the same echelon as Orr.

At pretty much any point in his career, Lidstrom was much better than any of the bolded names.

Erik Karlsson never wins a Norris trophy while Lidstrom is in the league, neither does PK Subban. If anything the competition for the Norris has been a joke since Lidstrom retired. It's going to get better with guys like Ekblad, Nurse, Jones etc. entering the mix but currently you only need to score 60+ points, regardless of defensive play, to be a favorite for the Norris. Lidstrom put up 60+ points while being the best defensive d-man in the league. 7 Norris trophies were, if anything, not enough to indicate how rare a player he was.

 

[InjuredChoker]

At pretty much any point in his career, Lidstrom was much better than any of the bolded names.

Erik Karlsson never wins a Norris trophy while Lidstrom is in the league, neither does PK Subban. If anything the competition for the Norris has been a joke since Lidstrom retired. It's going to get better with guys like Ekblad, Nurse, Jones etc. entering the mix but currently you only need to score 60+ points, regardless of defensive play, to be a favorite for the Norris. Lidstrom put up 60+ points while being the best defensive d-man in the league. 7 Norris trophies were, if anything, not enough to indicate how rare a player he was.

he wasn't the old lidström anymore but karlsson won his 1st norris while lidström was in the league, his final season.

 

[Frk It]

he wasn't the old lidström anymore but karlsson won his 1st norris while lidström was in the league, his final season.

Doesn't necessarily mean he was better.

Even 41 year old Lidstrom was way better in his own zone.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Doesn't necessarily mean he was better.

Even 41 year old Lidstrom was way better in his own zone.

norris is not an award for a defenseman who was best in his own zone.

 

[Frk It]

norris is not an award for a defenseman who was best in his own zone.

Well believe it or not the definition is "best overall defenseman", and not "best offensive defenseman". Even though you would never know with how it is given out now.

But all that being said, at that juncture Karlsson was probably better. As in, Lidstrom's very last season.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Well believe it or not the definition is "best overall defenseman", and not "best offensive defenseman". Even though you would never know with how it is given out now.

But all that being said, at that juncture Karlsson was probably better. As in, Lidstrom's very last season.

Erik Karlsson is the best defenseman in the NHL. This meme **** of him being bad in his own end is tired as ****.

Here's Karlsson's impact on his teammates.

A more in depth analysis of his 2015 individual stats and impact on linemates vs someone like say, Duncan Keith:

Karlsson absolutely dominates in a way no other defenseman in the league does. He limits shots against as an elite defenseman would while also generating offense like no other defenseman in the league can or does. I've watched a lot of the guy too, he's miles ahead of where he was as a defenseman several years ago.

 

[Frk It]

Erik Karlsson is the best defenseman in the NHL. This meme **** of him being bad in his own end is tired as ****.

Here's Karlsson's impact on his teammates.

A more in depth analysis of his 2015 individual stats and impact on linemates vs someone like say, Duncan Keith:

Karlsson absolutely dominates in a way no other defenseman in the league does. He limits shots against as an elite defenseman would while also generating offense like no other defenseman in the league can or does. I've watched a lot of the guy too, he's miles ahead of where he was as a defenseman several years ago.

Not going to hijack this thread, so I'll just say this.

I'm well aware of what the advanced stats say. I still don't agree.

Agree he has improved a lot since he won his first one. His first one was a joke.

Lidstrom was a guy no one wanted to play against in his own end. Can't say the same for this other guy.

 

[Sentinel]

I take 99 over 66 nine times out of ten. Gretzky has Lemiuex beat in every category: peak, prime, career, achievements, victories, attitude, everything. That said, I'd imagine Nik would have a harder time against Lemiuex, for the physical elements alone.

Degrading Harvey is wrong. Sure, there were only six teams, not thirty. But imagine facing Howe, Lindsay, and other 50s HOFers TWELVE TIMES a year as oppose to facing modern Nashville, Columbus, and Islanders.

 

[Pavels Dog]

he wasn't the old lidström anymore but karlsson won his 1st norris while lidström was in the league, his final season.

That's true. Lidstrom's obviously worst season ever. Karlsson also won with only a few votes despite putting up nearly a point-per-game. Showed how fractured voters were between giving it to EK based only on offense, or giving it to Weber/Chara who could actually defend.

Erik Karlsson is the best defenseman in the NHL. This meme **** of him being bad in his own end is tired as ****.

Erik Karlsson is an advanced stats darling. Still doesn't mean he isn't bad in his own end. Just means he's rarely there. Get sustained offense zone pressure against Karlsson though and he falls apart. I say that as a huge fan of him as a player.

 

[Frk It]

Erik Karlsson is an advanced stats darling. Still doesn't mean he isn't bad in his own end. Just means he's rarely there. Get sustained offense zone pressure against Karlsson though and he falls apart. I say that as a huge fan of him as a player.

Exactly how I feel. Being so good at offense that you don't have to defend often, isn't the same as being good defensively.

 

[danincanada]

Degrading Harvey is wrong. Sure, there were only six teams, not thirty. But imagine facing Howe, Lindsay, and other 50s HOFers TWELVE TIMES a year as oppose to facing modern Nashville, Columbus, and Islanders.

Imagine having to face far less competition to get your name on the Norris though. No Americans, no Europeans, far less Canadians even playing the sport. It's not a fair competition for the modern player cause he had to beat out far more elite talent. Doing it 7 times in this era is simply a far larger feat than doing it in the 50's. If this isn't a factor in determining "greatness" then people are missing the big picture and shouldn't bother comparing across eras at all.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

That's true. Lidstrom's obviously worst season ever. Karlsson also won with only a few votes despite putting up nearly a point-per-game. Showed how fractured voters were between giving it to EK based only on offense, or giving it to Weber/Chara who could actually defend.


Erik Karlsson is an advanced stats darling. Still doesn't mean he isn't bad in his own end. Just means he's rarely there. Get sustained offense zone pressure against Karlsson though and he falls apart. I say that as a huge fan of him as a player.

I mean, sustained offense against him simply doesn't happen despite being on a mostly mediocre team. He completely controls the flow of the game. But, even when he is in his own end, he suppresses shots better than most defensemen in the league.

Exactly how I feel. Being so good at offense that you don't have to defend often, isn't the same as being good defensively.

I mean, that's not true though. Can you prove that at all? I realize this thread is not about this topic though. We can move it to the Around the League thread if you want to discuss it further though.

 

[billybudd]

Think you guys might like this. Game someone on the Pens board found from 97. Shanahan, Yzerman, Feds, Lidstrom and co vs Jagr, Lemieux, Francis, Nedved et al--all in their primes (Lidstrom at the beginning of his, 66 at the end of his).

This game is the definition of vintage. Feds using the Feds "cut to the net move," Yzerman skating like a waterbug across the o-zone, Shanahan's half slapper, Jagr being a bull, Lemieux picking pockets from 10 feet away. Lots of scoring chances, lots of chaotic goaltending.

There's even a goal called back because Holmstrom interferes with Lalime, haha. Craig "shot blocker" Muni blocks one with his forehead. And, of course, the Fox fighting robots.