Let's talk some Granlund - Part 2 Grandboogaloo

[farshi]

Why would you not include defensemen in a team ranking? What kinda ****in gong show do you run?

Oh and I haven't gotten into why zone starts are basically worthless yet.

i cant tell if you're serious or not

 

[y2kcanucks]

Why would you not include defensemen in a team ranking? What kinda ****in gong show do you run?

Oh and I haven't gotten into why zone starts are basically worthless yet.

Like farshi said...can't tell if you're serious....

 

[Machinehead]

Evidence:

http://www.whyanything.co/blog/thin...aceoffs-and-zone-starts-for-in-game-strategy/

https://puckplusplus.com/2015/01/15...rts-matter-i-maybe-not-as-much-as-we-thought/

https://puckplusplus.com/2015/01/20...-lot-on-their-own-not-that-much-in-aggregate/

While each individual adjustment factor seems to be quite large when compared to the On-The-Fly weights, after we apply these factors to each player’s seasonal results from the past 5 years we see that the effect of the adjustment is small for most of the league: 80% of the players saw their numbers move up or down by less than 0.5%, and only 79 of 3275 qualifying players showed a delta either way of more than 1%.

Explanation:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=125845231&postcount=123

It was proven a long time ago that zone starts, statistically, don't do a ****ing thing. But everyone likes their narratives and actual results be damned.

 

[Machinehead]

Also, have you looked at the raw numbers?

289 offensive zone starts.

287 defensive zone starts.

If you think those two zone starts affected his corsi in any way...

 

[F A N]

You realize that there are other ways to get players for free than waivers, right? You can sign a comparable player to Granlund any day of the week in the summer.

Sure they might be a few years older, but age means nothing unless Granlund turns into something better than what you can get on the UFA market and so far he hasn't come close. And if they were stuck on age, they could've signed a 25 year old like Marchessault (scoring at a 27 goal 54 point pace with the same minutes as Granlund) or even a 24 year old Connolly who is scoring goals at a higher rate than Granund with only 11 minutes of ice time and no PP.

Ya. Gillis could have signed Tyler Johnson and drafted Brandon Saad, and Trocheck in 2011. In a span of months the Canucks could have had a new core to supplement the aging core. They were available.

It's so easy to play the coulda shoulda game. Would Granlund have been available on waivers? Anyone remember how well he played at training camp? He plays like that and he makes the roster of a lot of teams. But no... we have to still sit here and hear the same old arguments hashed out as if Shinkaruk wasn't a declining asset that would soon be available on waivers.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Also, have you looked at the raw numbers?

289 offensive zone starts.

287 defensive zone starts.

If you think those two zone starts affected his corsi in any way...

That's fine. Nice straw man though considering YOU are the one who mentioned zone starts on the last page. I just proved your comment wrong.

 

[CanaFan]

Some people say Granlund is sheltered but he starts most of his shifts in the neutral zone and his Quality of Teammates is awful

Why present this as an argument if you believe zone starts don't matter?

Weird.

 

[opendoor]

Ya. Gillis could have signed Tyler Johnson and drafted Brandon Saad, and Trocheck in 2011. In a span of months the Canucks could have had a new core to supplement the aging core. They were available.

It's so easy to play the coulda shoulda game. Would Granlund have been available on waivers? Anyone remember how well he played at training camp? He plays like that and he makes the roster of a lot of teams. But no... we have to still sit here and hear the same old arguments hashed out as if Shinkaruk wasn't a declining asset that would soon be available on waivers.

If you don't understand the difference between drafting future 1st liners in the 2nd round and beyond compared to signing a 25-30 point forward in the summer then I really don't know what to say.

 

[Machinehead]

Why present this as an argument if you believe zone starts don't matter?

Weird.

Because people say he's sheltered and it's easier to explain to people that he's just not than to explain why sheltering doesn't matter that much to begin with.

 

[CanaFan]

Because people say he's sheltered and it's easier to explain to people that he's just not than to explain why sheltering doesn't matter that much to begin with.

Fair enough.

 

[mathonwy]

 

[Verviticus]

i think the only thing that matters is that i predict he will not be a very good player moving forward. i conclude this with a combination of his ice time and situation, his history and what i've seen if him when he plays

 

[The Drop]

i think the only thing that matters is that i predict he will not be a very good player moving forward. i conclude this with a combination of his ice time and situation, his history and what i've seen if him when he plays

Doesn't seem to add up tho. Passes eye test once every 8 games

 

[Canucks LB]

Beauty

 

[Catamarca Livin]

If you don't understand the difference between drafting future 1st liners in the 2nd round and beyond compared to signing a 25-30 point forward in the summer then I really don't know what to say.

Who is the 25-30 point player you are talking about.

 

[opendoor]

Who is the 25-30 point player you are talking about.

I wasn't really referring to anyone specifically. Just any of the multitude of players who can put up 25-30 points with 3rd line minutes who are available every year for nothing. Marchessault and Connolly were just a couple of examples that several people on here identified last offseason.

 

[Joona]

Hi guys. Can someone explain to me why is Granlund so hated here? He´s earning 900k / year and he has scored 19 goals in this year (i know, with big minutes and mostly playing at 1st/2nd line). I´ve browsed some GDTs on this board and almost everytime no matter what granlund is mentioned why he´s useless/AHL material etc.. What am i missing? Is he the reason really why Vancouver is where it stands at the moment?

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Hi guys. Can someone explain to me why is Granlund so hated here? He´s earning 900k / year and he has scored 19 goals in this year (i know, with big minutes and mostly playing at 1st/2nd line). I´ve browsed some GDTs on this board and almost everytime no matter what granlund is mentioned why he´s useless/AHL material etc.. What am i missing? Is he the reason really why Vancouver is where it stands at the moment?

He plays too much because we don't really have many options on wings cause we suck.
Plus Shinkaruk is still the next big star for some posters

 

[Canucks LB]

Hi guys. Can someone explain to me why is Granlund so hated here? He´s earning 900k / year and he has scored 19 goals in this year (i know, with big minutes and mostly playing at 1st/2nd line). I´ve browsed some GDTs on this board and almost everytime no matter what granlund is mentioned why he´s useless/AHL material etc.. What am i missing? Is he the reason really why Vancouver is where it stands at the moment?

Hes not, its literally 2 posters

 

[y2kcanucks]

Hi guys. Can someone explain to me why is Granlund so hated here? He´s earning 900k / year and he has scored 19 goals in this year (i know, with big minutes and mostly playing at 1st/2nd line). I´ve browsed some GDTs on this board and almost everytime no matter what granlund is mentioned why he´s useless/AHL material etc.. What am i missing? Is he the reason really why Vancouver is where it stands at the moment?

I don't think anyone hates him.

The informed posters hate that we gave up an asset for him. Others gush over his 19 goals this year while ignoring the context (his massive amount of ice-time that he's received, his linemates/deployment, his unsustainable high shooting percentage, his very low ES points/60, his very poor defensive play, etc.)

If people would stop overrating him I doubt there would be much discussion over such an irrelevant player.

 

[Lindgren]

Hi guys. Can someone explain to me why is Granlund so hated here? He´s earning 900k / year and he has scored 19 goals in this year (i know, with big minutes and mostly playing at 1st/2nd line). I´ve browsed some GDTs on this board and almost everytime no matter what granlund is mentioned why he´s useless/AHL material etc.. What am i missing? Is he the reason really why Vancouver is where it stands at the moment?

The ongoing dispute about Granlund is a proxy battle between those who support the current regime and those who want the regime fired. That explains the polarization and the extreme statements on each side. There's also a significant overlap with the pro and anti advanced stats debate, which is also polarized.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

I don't think anyone hates him.

The informed posters hate that we gave up an asset for him. Others gush over his 19 goals this year while ignoring the context (his massive amount of ice-time that he's received, his linemates/deployment, his unsustainable high shooting percentage, his very low ES points/60, his very poor defensive play, etc.)

If people would stop overrating him I doubt there would be much discussion over such an irrelevant player.

All I've seen so far is that people are happy that's he's producing at a good pace consider he's paid 900k.
Also claiming that the trade looks like a win so far.
Tell me who actually overrated him?

 

[rune74]

2 goals tonight for our filler player.

 

[krutovsdonut]

The ongoing dispute about Granlund is a proxy battle between those who support the current regime and those who want the regime fired. That explains the polarization and the extreme statements on each side. There's also a significant overlap with the pro and anti advanced stats debate, which is also polarized.

benning gave up on shinkaruk quite early. those who did not like or trust benning gave him no benefit of the doubt on that decision.

 

[y2kcanucks]

All I've seen so far is that people are happy that's he's producing at a good pace consider he's paid 900k.
Also claiming that the trade looks like a win so far.
Tell me who actually overrated him?

Except he's not producing at a good pace, considering the ice-time he receives.

And no, the trade doesn't look like a win, given the context that I stated above.