Let's say we start TANKING, do you...

[Le Barron de HF]

Okay and besides a 5-6 game poor stretch by Condon... how often has he given up more then 2 goals? He's given up 2 or less goals in 15 of 26 decisions. In 24 of 26 decisions, he gave up 3 or less.

Only twice this season has Mike Condon given up 4 or more goals in a game.

We've only scored 1.79 goals per game since the start of December. Even Price isn't good enough to have a 1.78 GAA.

This is not my argument right now. It's a common fact that players play differently when their starter is injured. Just look at TB when Bishop went down in 2014. I'm not pointing the finger at Condon and saying he's played like crap but Condon isn't Price. Price slows the game down and makes hard save look like routine ones, he never looks 'skaky'. He also helps the defense by playing the puck either on the PK or by saving a quick pass to one of his defenseman. Is the team playing in front of Condon to blame? Absolutely. But Price being out as a played on factor as stupid as that may sound on the offense they produce.

 

[vokiel]

Also I don't think people are reading my original post, the main premise of this thread is not to start tanking but to consider trading that top 10 pick for immediate help. Many people seem to overlook that aspect of the thread which is what I'm most interested with personally.

No we shouldn't trade a lottery pick for immediate help, this team is tanking, so the immediate help on the market is gonna have to be the offer of the century and it won't happen in a trade dead line scenario.

The options IMHO are:

1. Tank and cash in that high lottery pick for the future. (Rebuild)
2. Tank and deal the pick before the draft because you know the UFA market is cut-throat and block busters are easier to do in the off-season. (Retool)
3. Don't Tank, look like a bunch of amateurs and miss the playoffs by a couple of points. (Bergerrien fired)
4. Don't tank, look like you have character and get booted out of the playoffs in the first round. (Therrien fired)

 

[Le Barron de HF]

No we shouldn't trade a lottery pick for immediate help, this team is tanking, so the immediate help on the market is gonna have to be the offer of the century and it won't happen in a trade dead line scenario.

The options IMHO are:

1. Tank and cash in that high lottery pick for the future. (Rebuild)
2. Tank and deal the pick before the draft because you know the UFA market is cut-throat and block busters are easier to do in the off-season. (Retool)
3. Don't Tank, look like a bunch of amateurs and miss the playoffs by a couple of points. (Bergerrien fired)
4. Don't tank, look like you have character and get booted out of the playoffs in the first round. (Therrien fired)

Who said it'd be at the trade deadline? I'm talking on draft day here. Similarly to the deal that Schneider to NJ.

 

[vokiel]

Who said it'd be at the trade deadline? I'm talking on draft day here. Similarly to the deal that Schneider to NJ.

Well then it's not exactly immediate help right?

Regardless, I agree, that's the option I would exercise.

 

[Natey]

This is not my argument right now. It's a common fact that players play differently when their starter is injured. Just look at TB when Bishop went down in 2014. I'm not pointing the finger at Condon and saying he's played like crap but Condon isn't Price. Price slows the game down and makes hard save look like routine ones, he never looks 'skaky'. He also helps the defense by playing the puck either on the PK or by saving a quick pass to one of his defenseman. Is the team playing in front of Condon to blame? Absolutely. But Price being out as a played on factor as stupid as that may sound on the offense they produce.

In 2014? You mean the playoffs where we faced a sieve? Condon is nothing like that.

I agree it plays a factor, but it's not as big as you seem to indicate.

 

[Rapala]

Also I don't think people are reading my original post, the main premise of this thread is not to start tanking but to consider trading that top 10 pick for immediate help. Many people seem to overlook that aspect of the thread which is what I'm most interested with personally.

Chris,
As much as i respect your idea not until the coaching situation is settled.
The funk is so wide spread one player can't impact it at this point.
Heck even Gallagher wasn't himself in that last game the one The Hawks all but gave us.

 

[Mrb1p]

Okay and besides a 5-6 game poor stretch by Condon... how often has he given up more then 2 goals? He's given up 2 or less goals in 15 of 26 decisions. In 24 of 26 decisions, he gave up 3 or less.

Only twice this season has Mike Condon given up 4 or more goals in a game.

We've only scored 1.79 goals per game since the start of December. Even Price isn't good enough to have a 1.78 GAA.

Price isn't the best player on this team only because he stops pucks, he's a puck possession producer with his stick and he's the true leader. Condon and Price with identical statistics don't have the same impact on a game.

 

[jaffy27]

Carr cannot fill a top 6 forward position now. Maybe in a few years but not now.
Markov should get traded to a contender for a 1st and +

We seriously don't have the team to win the cup.

You are 1000% right......anyone who thinks otherwise should get a brain scan!!

What's the point of barely making the playoffs and bowing out in the 1st round in 5 games...cause that's exactly what's gonna happen.

Trade your assets (Plekanec, Markov, Flynn, Eller,.....DD LOL) for 1st and 2nd round picks or high end prospects.

Play your guys on the farm (Hudon, McCarron, Carr, etc)

Shutdown Price for the remainder of the season and voilà......you have yourself a tank and a top 5 pick.

There's the Canadiens pride and then there logic and understanding a situation. It's like going to war with slingshots...we don't stand a chance.

 

[DAChampion]

The argument that goal scoring is down due to Price's injury is complete garbage.

 

[SnapVirus]

The argument that goal scoring is down due to Price's injury is complete garbage.

This.

This.

And.

This.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

Well then it's not exactly immediate help right?

Regardless, I agree, that's the option I would exercise.

Well, technically it is, depending on the timeline we're speaking about here

In 2014? You mean the playoffs where we faced a sieve? Condon is nothing like that.

I agree it plays a factor, but it's not as big as you seem to indicate.

To play Devil's advocate, Lindback started off his season pretty promising too (just look at what the Preds got for him)

Condon is a fine back-up but he's not starter material IMO. As for your other statement, fair enough, it's not really a topic that can be measured or quantified. I just feel it's human psychology 101 that a team wouldn't play with as much confidence without their best player (who happens to play the most important position).

Chris,
As much as i respect your idea not until the coaching situation is settled.
The funk is so wide spread one player can't impact it at this point.
Heck even Gallagher wasn't himself in that last game the one The Hawks all but gave us.

Well as much as I'd like to see MT get fired, I don't think it'll happen. MT as Price's injury as an excuse for the team's **** record and MB seems like his loyal to a flaw when it comes to his coach.

 

[vokiel]

The argument that goal scoring is down due to Price's injury is complete garbage.

It's a stretch or a slippery slope depending on your point of view. Price's injury forced the hand of the coach, however justified or not you think, to change his lines and try to adjust the system a little. This impacted the amount of freedom forwards have to generate offense and ultimately led to the necessity to lean more on some players up front who were not necessarily great to begin with, but no one was noticing it because the team was performing awesomely with Price in net.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

The argument that goal scoring is down due to Price's injury is complete garbage.

Well it is depending on how much stock you put in Price's injury affecting the scoring. With Price I think we're a 17-20* league wide for Goals For (the start of the season was obviously an anomaly). That being said, the offense shouldn't be in the bottom three of the league like it's been for last two months. Some of you are underestimating the impact that Price has on transition and mentally on the players.




* with the current group of forwards

 

[jaffy27]

The argument that goal scoring is down due to Price's injury is complete garbage.

I agree.....I've always said this team just doesn't have the skill set to score goals, no killer instinct...they are way too sofffft, nobody hits but Emelin, nobody can score except 3 players, fwds are way too small across the board......I've always been a huge huge Bergevin supporter, he's handled the cap very well but it's time to start signing, drafting and trading for hockey players that can bring some jam.

Bye bye Fleishmann, Andrighetto, Flynn, DD, Plekanec......don't mind Byron and his 160lbs frame though.

 

[Mrb1p]

The argument that goal scoring is down due to Price's injury is complete garbage.

It's not.

Price is the engine that drives our possession. Scoring goes down anytime price isn't playing.

 

[Natey]

The argument that goal scoring is down due to Price's injury is complete garbage.

This.

This.

And.

This.

A-****ing-men, boys.

And I love possession as much as the next guy, but give me a break. Now a goalie is giving us loads of possession?

 

[Dominator13]

The argument that goal scoring is down due to Price's injury is complete garbage.

If you've ever played hockey you know it's not. I don't think there's a sport on earth where the mental side of the game is as important as hockey. When you fell like your goalie is impenetrable, it builds confidence and you start taking time to go for effective plays instead of mass shooting. It's partially why our Corsi was so low and our PDO was so high in 2014-2015.

 

[jaffy27]

It's not.

Price is the engine that drives our possession. Scoring goes down anytime price isn't playing.

Your semi right....a top end goalie does give you the courage to open the machine...Habs are just missing "the machine".....

 

[Mrb1p]

A-****ing-men, boys.

And I love possession as much as the next guy, but give me a break. Now a goalie is giving us loads of possession?

Yes. Jesus Christ just watch the guy play. He didn't win the Hart just by stoping damn pucks. His impact on our team is beyond that. Just like Brodeur before him.

 

[LaP]

Even if we tank, we'll just turn Matthews/Laine/Puljujarvi/Tkachuk into grinders.



I don't think we're making the playoffs. The collapse will be of epic proportions at the end of the season after the start we had.

Epic is not the right word. The word you were looking to use is unheard off. It never happened in the history of the NHL. I checked and all teams who started 7-0 made the playoffs. In fact most of them made it rather easily.

After the hot start we only had to play for 500 to make the playoffs.

I never though i would say that but what we are witnessing right now is more pathetic than the Zubrus-Zholtok-Petrov year when Koivu missed a whole season.

That's really the worst i've seen from this team since the mid 80ies. and we had some really rough years between 95 and 2010.

The only way MB can make this season less plainful is by tanking like we did the conney year.

We don't have much good prospects ready to help. We have almost no cap space to sign anyone. Outside of the playstation it seems impossible for our DG to make a trade. The only acceptable course of action is to tank and try a quick turnaround. Trade Markov. Retain some salary if needed. Get what you can for Eller, DD, Emelin, Gilbert, DSP, Byron, Margarine. Try to trade Plekanec (would probably be impossible this year because of the 2 years left to his contract). Get the most picks and b prospects you can. It's a good draft this year there will still be good guys in the middle of the 1st round. The more picks you got there the better.

 

[Natey]

Yes. Jesus Christ just watch the guy play. He didn't win the Hart just by stoping damn pucks. His impact on our team is beyond that. Just like Brodeur before him.

Sorry. He skates up the ice, holds it in the zone, and then even scores from time to time. We got da best grinding goaler in da game!

Price is amazing. He helps us win games. He does improve possession. But it's not going to take us from 1.79 goals per game to something respectable.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Not that I necessirly disagree with your position but Poile didn't get fired when the Predators tanked following a season where Rinne was hurt for almost the whole season. I have soured on Bergevin but I think tanking in this particular scenario would be understandable and would show that he's willing to take a step back to take two step forwards next season.

Okay but Poile didn't have a terrible coach at the helm who he kept on staff. Moreover, MB has had YEARS to add a scorer and has not done so.

Saying he should be fired is more me blowing off steam... but if he doesn't at least fire Therrien they can both be shown the door as far as I'm concerned.

 

[WG]

It's a stretch or a slippery slope depending on your point of view. Price's injury forced the hand of the coach, however justified or not you think, to change his lines and try to adjust the system a little. This impacted the amount of freedom forwards have to generate offense and ultimately led to the necessity to lean more on some players up front who were not necessarily great to begin with, but no one was noticing it because the team was performing awesomely with Price in net.

I'd put more credibility into this concept vs. Price somehow being able to drive possession and goalscoring. Someone on HF did assemble goalie data including "GFA", in essence goal support per 60 min for each goalie, calculated the same way as GAA.

http://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/montreal.html

2014-15, Price got 2.5 GF per game, Tokarski 2.1
2013-14, Price 2.5, Budaj 2.1
2012-13, Price 2.7 Budaj 3.5
2011-12, Price 2.5, Budaj 2.2
2010-11, Price 2.5, Auld 3.0

There's so much to consider (strength of opponents for one) but there's no clear pattern that Price himself drives goalscoring. I would agree that the players will play differently (or MT will gameplan differently)with Price in net, they can afford to take more chances etc. and you might expect to see more scoring chances by the Habs vs what you see with Condon/Tokarski in net.

 

[CoupeStanley]

You say our window is now and you want us to tank?
Did I miss something? Plenty of times to turn the season around.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

You say our window is now and you want us to tank?
Did I miss something? Plenty of times to turn the season around.

a) Price won't be at his best when he comes back due to rust.
b) Obvious flaws with the team such as the lack of offense and the left side being weak on defense. Team can't score at all and trading away picks for a short fix while Price isn't at his best is pointless. Might as well throw away this season and prepare for next year instead. As I've pointed out in this thread after the OP, maybe a retool is the proper term here rather than tank. Our window is now until 2018. This doesn't change a whole much considering that getting a Vrbata won't turn us into a legit threat for the Cup.