GDT: Let the Free Agency Madness begin

[htdoc]

I love Pesce the player…. Absolutely love the player. Been a great representative for the team… Range-y, bigger bodied than he may at first appear. Doesn’t go for the big hit and get stupid. But in his previous seasons could be physical enough to be a defensive dman and every once in a while tease you with an offensive play or a one timer to get a key goal…. Steady, consistent, etc. doesn’t stand out in any specific way, but at the end of the game isn’t going to be a minus… just gives you really good minutes and helps the team… his contract has been exceptional value for years now.

However, unlike the old days where his next contract would typically be based on past performance or an attempt to make up for an underpay on the last deal, that’s not how the Canes roll…. Also, as much as I love the guy, he has a lot of miles on the tires at this point for us and playing the toughest minutes for us season in and season out was starting to show last season.. he wasnt as consistent, didn’t make plays as consistently, he got beat a lot more in wrap arounds and got beat a lot more to a position in the goal mouth area… didn’t tie up the guy or his stick as consistently…. Where in seasons past he would have kept the player to the outside in the crease or tied the guy up tight, he was starting to lose more of those in crease battles imo…. I saw a slight drop off…. Was it just an off year and this season will be back to the way it was or will it be another slow trickle to start showing some age? When looking 6 or 7 or 9 years out…….. im too conservative compared to others and as much as I love what he has done for the team, I don’t mess up our structure to keep him for too many years at too much money…

I think if we plan to lock up Slavin, and of the two, I think I prefer a long term deal with Slavin over Pesce, I think the org limits Pesce to max 4 years at 5.5m max…. Which understandably is a non starter for Pesce who wants 8 years and someone to pay him 6-7m+….

we can’t build a long term competitive roster paying our #4 dman 7m+ per year for a bunch of years out into the future.… we need to find the replacement level alternative that can give us what Pesce has given us for similar to what we are currently paying so we can use any bump in the salary cap to pay for that elite forward everyone is talking about wanting that will solve our real problem(s) that is keeping us from the promised land….

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I feel like the Canes could only get away with letting go of Pesce if they know that they can sign someone like Tanev for fewer years because of the "veteran-without-a-cup" factor. IMO he's the only potential player in this year's UFA market who can genuinely give equivalent value to Pesce. DeMelo is a good defenseman but isn't really at the same elite level of defensive play.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I feel like the Canes could only get away with letting go of Pesce is if they know that they can sign someone like Tanev for fewer years because of the "veteran-without-a-cup" factor. IMO he's the only potential player in this year's UFA market who can genuinely give equivalent value to Pesce. DeMelo is a good defenseman but isn't really at the same elite level of defensive play.

DeMelo is elite level of defense. He just provides even less offense than pesce

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

DeMelo is elite level of defense. He just provides even less offense than pesce

With 3 fewer minutes per night of ice time. That's a pretty significant difference that can't be ignored when comparing defensive play. Tanev is the only RD comparable with Pesce's sort of workload, and even Tanev plays 1 and a half minutes per night less than Pesce.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

With 3 fewer minutes per night of ice time. That's a pretty significant difference that can't be ignored when comparing defensive play. Tanev is the only RD comparable with Pesce's sort of workload, and even Tanev plays 1 and a half minutes per night less than Pesce.

looking at the situational play per game:

	Pesce	Demelo
5v5	17:40	16:24
4v4	:50	:24
3v3	:10	0
pp	1:05	:05
pk	2:24	2:39

so we are saying Demelo is less elite solely based on Pesce getting 2 more shifts a game in 5v5, getting 1 extra shift a game in 4v4 situations and playing on the PP?

Evolving hockey says DeMelo plays just 9 seconds per game less then Pesce at even strength against Quality of competition.

this is the last 3 seasons:

DeMelo's issue has always been his lack of contribution to the offense. In a scenario with Orlov and then Nikishin, we just need DeMelo to be solid defensively. He has that covered.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Are PTOs even paid? Wonder if it's just Dundon thinking outside the box for cheap labor solutions

 

[cptjeff]

Are PTOs even paid? Wonder if it's just Dundon thinking outside the box for cheap labor solutions

Just expenses, there's no salary attached. But salaries are only paid during the regular season anyway.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Starting at ~13:20, Friedman says Pesce had been given permission to talk to other teams (ended up being 2), but “it didn’t go anywhere.” He thinks he’ll begin the season with the club.

That sounds like the league is weary of his age risk too. He’s basically Colton Parayko without the name value and that one isn’t looking good at the moment.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Starting at ~13:20, Friedman says Pesce had been given permission to talk to other teams (ended up being 2), but “it didn’t go anywhere.” He thinks he’ll begin the season with the club.

That sounds like the league is weary of his age risk too. He’s basically Colton Parayko without the name value and that one isn’t looking good at the moment.

The Daly interview was interesting too.

We are getting close to the end of the Hockey Canada investigation.

The NHL has been involved in our AHL issues. Daly said there were options but wouldn’t say what they were. We are stuck this season though.

We should know the fate of the Coyotes by the end of the calendar year.

Switching back to pesce, I would guess Nashville and buffalo were the two teams. Unfortunately pesce is going to learn defensive defenders aren’t as valued in the league.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Starting at ~13:20, Friedman says Pesce had been given permission to talk to other teams (ended up being 2), but “it didn’t go anywhere.” He thinks he’ll begin the season with the club.

That sounds like the league is weary of his age risk too. He’s basically Colton Parayko without the name value and that one isn’t looking good at the moment.

I'm cool letting it play out with pesce and I would not be surprised at all to see him hit UFA in a year, not like the offers he's getting, and re-sign with us for a reasonable mid-length deal at that point. I don't see the urgency to either trade him or re-sign him. I would try to trade Skjei though if there's a deal that makes sense. The stacked D route could be interested but not sure Skjei or Orlov being utilized on a 3rd pair makes much sense.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

If teams are getting cold feet about Pesce because of Parayko, the Canes should take advantage of the situation and hard-line the Pesce camp on the term. I know that my thoughts on Pesce are controversial, but to me, 4-5 years is the perfect length for a Pesce extension. I genuinely would rather keep Pesce than lose him because we don't have someone like him coming in the pipeline any time soon, and other than Tanev and (big maybe) DeMelo, there's no alternative in UFA that isn't a downgrade in some form or fashion.

I would try to trade Skjei though if there's a deal that makes sense. The stacked D route could be interested but not sure Skjei or Orlov being utilized on a 3rd pair makes much sense.

I'm relatively neutral about this. It's possible that the Canes are being low-balled in trades right now because there's a feeling among some teams that they "have" to trade one defenseman away. To which I would say, screw that. I'd rather a position be a mega-strength for one season than trade someone like Pesce or Skjei for a forward that isn't equivalent value.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

If teams are getting cold feet about Pesce because of Parayko, the Canes should take advantage of the situation and hard-line the Pesce camp on the term. I know that my thoughts on Pesce are controversial, but to me, 4-5 years is the perfect length for a Pesce extension. I genuinely would rather keep Pesce than lose him because we don't have someone like him coming in the pipeline any time soon, and other than Tanev and (big maybe) DeMelo, there's no alternative in UFA that isn't a downgrade in some form or fashion.



I'm relatively neutral about this. It's possible that the Canes are being low-balled in trades right now because there's a feeling among some teams that they "have" to trade one defenseman away. To which I would say, screw that. I'd rather a position be a mega-strength for one season than trade someone like Pesce or Skjei for a forward that isn't equivalent value.

Ehh I doubt that, if a team wanted to ensure they’d get Pesce they’d pay up now. I think it’s more that he has just 1 year left and a pending large contract that teams don’t want to pay. Canes seem perfectly happy going into the season with the D group we have.

 

[Canes]

Starting at ~13:20, Friedman says Pesce had been given permission to talk to other teams (ended up being 2), but “it didn’t go anywhere.” He thinks he’ll begin the season with the club.

That sounds like the league is weary of his age risk too. He’s basically Colton Parayko without the name value and that one isn’t looking good at the moment.

Yeah, the more that comes out, it seems like Pesce wants a long term deal or an AAV that scares teams off.

I love Pesce and want to keep him around as long as we can but business is business.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Ehh I doubt that, if a team wanted to ensure they’d get Pesce they’d pay up now. I think it’s more that he has just 1 year left and a pending large contract that teams don’t want to pay. Canes seem perfectly happy going into the season with the D group we have.

If teams are afraid of giving out the big term, then Pesce isn't likely to get the term that he wants even in the July 1st UFA market. A soft market on that front is advantageous to the Hurricanes, because then it becomes a choice of large money for a not-great team (usually cap-rich teams are not good teams) or very good money for one of the best teams in the league.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

If teams are afraid of giving out the big term, then Pesce isn't likely to get the term that he wants even in the July 1st UFA market. A soft market on that front is advantageous to the Hurricanes, because then it becomes a choice of large money for a not-great team (usually cap-rich teams are not good teams) or very good money for one of the best teams in the league.

Agreed I alluded to that in one of my earlier posts I believe, I was just replying to you saying teams may be lowballing the Canes because they think we need to trade someone. That's what I doubt is the case -- I think teams fully believe the Canes are comfortable going into this season with this stacked D group. If teams are making offers, they are either lowballing due to his contract situation or the Canes truly don't want to trade Pesce and prefer to keep him as an own rental. Honestly I think that would make sense too, I don't see a trade out there for 1 year of Pesce that is a big enough upgrade at F to lose him. And if he's traded with a contract it'll be a big contract.

Pesce is a tremendous player, don't get me wrong, but a lot of his value lately has come from his contract being a bargain. Getting paid market rate he's not that great of an asset especially with the risk of the back half of a long term deal at his age. I think teams see that, and any teams that don't or don't care and just need talent are going to be bottom feeders that he won't want to sign long term with or could have on his no trade list. I think it could wind up being beneficial for the Canes to keep him on a reasonable mid-term deal and Pesce may just have to live with that reality of never getting the huge money contract he wants but it is what it is. That may be me just being hopeful as some team could certainly back up the brinks truck for him in UFA. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out and if not for Orlov signing/Nikishin in the mix it would be a pretty damn big impact on our window. With those two in the mix, plus Morrow, I'm less concerned.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I still always wonder if Pesce just felt underpaid as this long contract went on and at times underutilized here and it will be difficult to make things work. As long as we don't fall for something crazy long-term, I'm fine with him getting traded, playing out the year, or getting re-signed to something more mid or short-term. Just don't get Vlasiced.

 

[Stickpucker]

I still always wonder if Pesce just felt underpaid as this long contract went on and at times underutilized here and it will be difficult to make things work. As long as we don't fall for something crazy long-term, I'm fine with him getting traded, playing out the year, or getting re-signed to something more mid or short-term. Just don't get Vlasiced.

It's like that study about how in the Olympics the people least happy with their performance and outcome were people in 2nd place. Pesce is kind of like that.

He's a great player and everyone appreciates him but he's not a Jacob Slavin, Dougie Hamilton, or Brent Burns. He's just behind them...and it's not for lack of trying or an issue with attitude....he just doesn't have the talent those guys have....but he's so close...if he had a tiny bit more creativity or a tiny bit faster decision making...or just a little bit better shot....he's almost there....but he's not despite the fact he's poured his life into his craft. He knows he's close....and he wants the respect but he's not that guy...he's just painfully close.

We love the guy b/c he's a great Cane...the problem is he wants to be Batman but he's Robin. He wants to be Frodo but he's Samwise. He wants to be Buffy but he's Willow.

 

[MinJaBen]

We love the guy b/c he's a great Cane...the problem is he wants to be Batman but he's Robin. He wants to be Frodo but he's Samwise. He wants to be Buffy but he's Willow.

He wants to be an analogy, but he's just a simile.

 

[Chrispy]

He wants to be Buffy but he's Willow.

Thinks back to Buffy season 7...oh ****.

 

[SlavinAway]

Thinks back to Buffy season 7...oh ****.

I'm not familiar enough with the series to understand this reference but Sarah Michelle Gellar as Buffy makes me feel things...

 

[Bunch of Jurcos]

I'm not familiar enough with the series to understand this reference but Sarah Michelle Gellar as Buffy makes me feel things...

Ditto for Alyson Hannigan as Willow.

 

[Ole Gil]

I really like the Canes approach to these things. "Here's our offer. Feel free to go find a better one if you can. No hard feelings."

It seems very fair and transparent.

 

[CanesUltimate11]

It's like that study about how in the Olympics the people least happy with their performance and outcome were people in 2nd place. Pesce is kind of like that.

He's a great player and everyone appreciates him but he's not a Jacob Slavin, Dougie Hamilton, or Brent Burns. He's just behind them...and it's not for lack of trying or an issue with attitude....he just doesn't have the talent those guys have....but he's so close...if he had a tiny bit more creativity or a tiny bit faster decision making...or just a little bit better shot....he's almost there....but he's not despite the fact he's poured his life into his craft. He knows he's close....and he wants the respect but he's not that guy...he's just painfully close.

We love the guy b/c he's a great Cane...the problem is he wants to be Batman but he's Robin. He wants to be Frodo but he's Samwise. He wants to be Buffy but he's Willow.

To be fair I'd much rather be Samwise than Frodo since he's the true hero.

 

[To Be Determined]

To be fair I'd much rather be Samwise than Frodo since he's the true hero.

I need more likes to give this.

 

[Lempo]

Ditto for Alyson Hannigan as Willow.

I just watched for the plot.

Oh, and Faith, obviously.