Post-Game Talk: Leafs Lose in OT Again to Devils.

[Twine Tickler]

just look a tthe cap structure and allocation and terms for NJ and then compare it to the way f***ing dubas ruined it for the leafs. boils my blood I tell ya

Can we not just accept that we lost to the better team? Not everything needs to be this cataclysmic failure of epic proportion. We got outplayed by a very good team, playing the best hockey they've played as a franchise in almost 20 years.

We are still a good team, and despite not bringing our best effort, we got a single point.

I'm not thrilled with the outcome either. I would have loved to be the team that stopped them dead in their tracks, but they just wanted this one more then us. They are a hungrier team at this point. When you marry that hunger with the skill they have up top, it's a very scary combo. It's why they are now on an 11 game heater, with absolutely no signs of slowing down.

It's a long season. That candle is burning bright at the moment for them, but it will more than likely burn out just as fast as it came to light. If you look at all the major players from years past with the exception of Boston and VGK, every team that is a perennial contender has been "slow" out of the gate. It's because games in October/November don't mean shit. Teams like NJ need to stockpile their pts now if they want to ensure their position in the playoffs. These games are far more important to teams like them vs. us.

I will say though, the Devils don't look like a flash in the pan. That was a very well structured game for them, and I don't see them regressing all that much. I think they'll be good going forward IMO

 

[PromisedLand]

I think Lilly is the best option to be a point threat even if he isn’t the best PP QB option.

what makes you think Rielly or Sandin are any better options for PP QB than Lily? They both don't drive play on the PP they are just there to pass the puck.

 

[PromisedLand]

Can we not just accept that we lost to the better team? Not everything needs to be this cataclysmic failure of epic proportion. We got outplayed by a very good team, playing the best hockey they've played as a franchise in almost 20 years.

We are still a good team, and despite not bringing our best effort, we got a single point.

I'm not thrilled with the outcome either. I would have loved to be the team that stopped them dead in their tracks, but they just wanted this one more then us. They are a hungrier team at this point. When you marry that hunger with the skill they have up top, it's a very scary combo. It's why they are now on an 11 game heater, with absolutely no signs of slowing down.

It's a long season. That candle is burning bright at the moment for them, but it will more than likely burn out just as fast as it came to light. If you look at all the major players from years past with the exception of Boston and VGK, every team that is a perennial contender has been "slow" out of the gate. It's because games in October/November don't mean shit. Teams like NJ need to stockpile their pts now if they want to ensure their position in the playoffs. These games are far more important to teams like them vs. us.

I will say though, the Devils don't look like a flash in the pan. That was a very well structured game for them, and I don't see them regressing all that much. I think they'll be good going forward IMO

No. This is NHL and this team has not earned the right to be given any benefit of doubt given their playoff performance and early season struggles.

This team refuses to rise to the occasion. And that has more to do with how the GM of this team has ruined the culture, team structure and cap allocation. Then he went on to hire his buddy as the coach who has gotten outcoached against good teams especially in the playoffs.

Not excusing the players but quite frankly the GM/Coach has put players in this position where team is weaker and slower this season.

I will give you no Brodie on the backend is bad luck; but giving Holl minutes he doesn't deserve is pure incompetence

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

 

[The Podium]

what makes you think Rielly or Sandin are any better options for PP QB than Lily? They both don't drive play on the PP they are just there to pass the puck.

Very true, Lilly has all the tools but his offensive creativity is lacking which the other 2 have. I guess it doesn’t matter much when Marner is the true PP QB.

 

[Burnie97]

This, exactly this. Thanks.

But no "too many turnovers" seems to be the #1 talking point, the #2 of course is monumental suckage everywhere, #3 is something the coach said or did. All of which are burning hot soul crushing takes.

After holding one of the top 3 teams in the league to well below their normal game output, coming back to tie them up and forcing OT and stealing a point, the conversation seems to be where it always ends up.

I'll admit I shit on them sometimes too but people have to remember the good too.

They're still a good team with flaws. Which hopefully they can fix a couple before the playoffs.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

TJ coming back into the lineup will help the D, he's truly missed, replacing Muzz is going to be the steepest hill.

I think the Leafs will have an easier time filling the 2LW spot, although they were hoping that the guy wearing 89 was going to be the solution. He still could.

Acquiring all these pieces will cost and if you look critically at the Leaf cupboard it's pretty much empty. A top 4 heavy lifting Dman is going to cost a whole bunch, which means you'll have to find the medium of exchange in the starting line-up. You'll end up creating a deficiency in order to fill one. Which is very much like shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic.

Or maybe you're fine with offering up 1sts starting in 23 and beyond. We know from history it's maybe not the safest of strategies

Yea brodies helps a lot, the top 4 dman would be an insurance policy for if holl or Liljegren can’t play at a top 4 level so maybe that’s not necessarily a need, but a want, still a very crucial want.

I truly think the top 6 winger is needed though, we needed one last year when bunting was a 65 point player, now he’s looking like a 40 point player and the second line has no one, I like kerfoot, but he isn’t made for the 2nd line. We need a guy who can score 20-25 goals consistently there, and I don’t think Robertson is ready just yet for that role. Offence really dries up in the playoffs and having one more 25ish goal scorer who should give a few goals in the playoffs is gonna be key for us

The bottom six winger shouldn’t be hard to acquire, either internally or externally. He just needs to replace engvall because it’s clear engvall doesn’t have it

And I don’t really mind dealing the first, but I’d rather package it into a guy with more than 1 year, I don’t want a pure rental, those haven’t worked for us. Another muzzin type trade I’d be willing to accept

 

[PromisedLand]

While the Leafs have been treading water the past 4 years losing, and spinning their wheels in the sand constantly losing in round #1 and spending valuable assets in picks including high ones and team like NJ has been rebuilding using that time period and same assets to build themselves into a Cup contender.,

This NJ team today reminds me of the Leafs from 2016 after they just drafted Matthews and then were full of high-end skill and young talent and when from last to a playoff spot the very next year.

Part of the key back then was a balanced attack where all 3 of the Amigo's were on separate lines and much like NJ today where they have their 3 top scorers all on different lines and the attack spread out to be able to play a 4 line game.

When a team in a Cup window is stalled, better check the review mirror because those teams that are restocking on high picks are coming fast and NJ seems like one of those teams currently on a 11 game winning streak.

This is just one of the reason why Dubas pisses teh F outta me. And more than Dubas; Shanahan is starting to piss the F outta me even more now. All the incompetence via Dubas/Keefe/etc,,, all happened unde Shanahan's eyes. Shanahan is the primary person to take the blame.

 

[Burnie97]

just look a tthe cap structure and allocation and terms for NJ and then compare it to the way f***ing dubas ruined it for the leafs. boils my blood I tell ya

I hear you on that but there's not much of a way out of it until JT is gone or takes a big pay cut next time and the cap goes up (which hopefully it does at the end of this season). The big 4 just have to perform. They seem like they're starting to.

But yes if they had another 5 to 7 it'd be much easier to balance the lineup. The bottom 6 have to produce more.

You hope some of these younger guys come in and take a spot too.

 

[The Podium]

just look a tthe cap structure and allocation and terms for NJ and then compare it to the way f***ing dubas ruined it for the leafs. boils my blood I tell ya

To be fair, the Hughes and Hischer deals were huge gambles that paid off. They overpaid them while they were average, and they have lived up to and exceed those expectations.

Hard to compare those contracts to Matthews and Marner who were 40+ G and 90 + P players when their ELCs were up to Hischer and Hughes were similar players to Nylander around the same age.

Hughes was signed 8x8 after this

Hischer was signed 7x7 after this

 

[PromisedLand]

I hear you on that but there's not much of a way out of it until JT is gone or takes a big pay cut next time and the cap goes up (which hopefully it does at the end of this season). The big 4 just have to perform. They seem like they're starting to.

But yes if they had another 5 to 7 it'd be much easier to balance the lineup. The bottom 6 have to produce more.

You hope some of these younger guys come in and take a spot too.

I think thats too much pressure on players b/c of GM's incompetence. Hypothetically speaking even if big4 perform the bottom 6 will have to play opposition to a stalemate I don't think Leafs are gonna be able to achieve this as other teams have better cap allocation and team structure; their depth will overpower the leafs. (Recall game 7 last season who scored for Tampa? as an example)

Personally Leafs can do with dealing Marner to another team use his 11 million to restructure the top9 and address defensive issue including re-signing both Matthews and Nylander.

And then when Tavares is off the cap re-evaluate for decent cap allocation and cap structure.

But personally, I'd prefer actually I want it to be a new President/GM to come in with a new vision.

Shanahan/Dubas/Keefe tandem IMO does not have a plan or process. They have thrown away picks/prospects for 1st round exits and do not know how to build a competent and competitive team in the cap era for success.

 

[egd27]

Overtime records and shootout record has been pretty poor since the 3 on 3 was brought in. It's just an automatic loss and I honestly feel we need a different lineup to start these OTs as our big guns just dont cut it.

It's not just about the line up, it's the approach.

Look at what NJ did last night (other teams have done this too). They gained control off the face off and just skated around tiring the Leafs out by making them chase. Once they did that for a while, they start making changes and got fresh legs out against our tired ones. By that time, even if the Leafs gain possession, they have no gas in the tank for a decent attack, which provides the opposition a better chance at puck retrieval either through pressure or a fatigued turnover.

Contrast that to the Leafs, who always seem to be in a hurry to get into the O zone and take the shot. Which more often than not leads to a change of possession and the "track meet".

Coaching

 

[Nineteen67]

View attachment 609541

Murray was pretty good. Stopped all the shots below his waist, despite how he looked doing it.

 

[showtime8]

I don't think it was about coaching last night.

I thought more had to do with making breakout passes from their own end and not being able to complete anything. I thought there were a lot of times that the first pass wasn't good and the team had to regroup and actually battle to get the puck out. That had a lot to do with the Devils having levels of forechecking and a relentless motor to force an underwhelming Leafs defense.

I thought the Leafs were lucky to get a point last night and probably didn't deserve it.

 

[notDatsyuk]

That is kind of a funny take, with regards to the equipment.

Look at goalies a few decades ago.

They could almost be wearing shin pads, but those things were heavy. I volunteered to play net in one of our pick-up games and I stayed on my feet because I couldn't get up once I went down.

All goalies wear big equipment.

When I was playing goal the pads were leather stuffed with horsehair, and weighed a ton even before getting wet. My son's pads are synthetic, and his pads plus gloves weigh less than *one* of my pads. I wore his for a couple of games (they're a bit too long) and the difference in mobility was amazing. They are also designed for the butterfly style, and make it much easier going side-to-side.

A few years ago, before the league cracked down, there were all kinds of cheaters in the equipment. Wings under the arms, extra height on the shoulders, over-width pads, really wide wrists on the trappers, and so on.

(When Phil Esposito was running the Lightning he said his brother Tony's entire trapper would fit inside the pocket of the new ones.)

Now the equipment is a bit smaller, but the players are bigger.

As for Murray, he's big and fills a lot of space, but these last two games he seems to be a bit sloppy, especially with catching the puck. Hopefully it's just rust.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Effort was good. Devils on a roll right now way she goes. Got the point will take it.

Great effort

 

[Beaumaris]

Another point for a game they lost. Three cheers for loser points.

In reality we are a just a five hundred team.

 

[ZEBROA]

To be fair, Matthews and Nylander were in the ice to end regulation. I think the intention was to give them some rest to start OT.

Honestly Kampf - Malgin - Lilly might have been the move to gain possession against NJs top unit then switch to Matthews - Nylander



I think Lilly is the best option to be a point threat even if he isn’t the best PP QB option.

Fair points. Even if i think they would manage to start they might not been 100% rested. I just want Keefe to be smarter in game thats all. The Marner Matthews split was talked about a long time before he tried it. Things like that. Act and take charge. He can still be his friendly self.

 

[tom leafers]

for god sake stop starting Tavares in overtime, specially when the other team is way faster already

 

[justashadowof]

Where are the consequences to certain players on this team? Engvall is so soft and careless with the puck at times. Sandin, who I love for his competitiveness, gambles way too often and at inopportune times for a .25-.33 PPG defender. Is the coach afraid to correct these players or is in favour of what they're doing? I know the type of player Keefe was, I don't believe for a second that he respects the way Engvall plays the game. Regarding Sandin, any coach knows that players have to be reined in if the player is too enthusiastic about going on the attack.

 

[IPS]

Can we not just accept that we lost to the better team?

If you have a loser mentality, go ahead and accept that sure.

For the rest of the fanbase who actually has expectations, no you we can't just accept that.

When you draft franchise-altering talent like Matthews and Marner and have the talent you have, you don't just "accept losing to a better team".

 

[Niagara Bill]

No, that's more on your top 2 players. They accepted 11M each. They need to deliver. It always amazes me how some Leaf fans give these players free passes all the time. Jesus.

Yes, the players are responsible for their performance, but Keefe is responsible for setting the environment for that performance. These guys stopped listening to Babcock, now maybe to Keefe. The responsibility of Dubas, Shanny is to decide who is more important, coach or player.
I never give a player a free pass, you can see the lack of effort. Is it deliberate or environmental?

 

[IPS]

SPEED beats SKILL .. speed beats most times in hockey even physical goonery .. da faster team as Murray said was all over da puck and even with Keefer trying like crazy to slow game down to a pace where we could have a little possession here and there it was too much for our guys to handle

Only reason we got a point was Murray and Willy .. that's it .. without Willy's speed to counteract Devils this was a 6-2 type game .. Murray was outstanding .. best I have seen him since his cup runs ..if we get that tending in playoffs we could win a round or two

Our defense is atrocious .. beyond bad .. bottom 5 in league and maybe worst .. Sandin just can't play against fast teams (like we have seen against Habs and in Marlie playoffs) .. he can't handle da speed of da game .. and his pinch in 1st was ridiculously stupid for a slow guy .. he does not think like a D man .. Holl OMG that 1st goal I saw it coming well ahead of score (watch da video) ,.. his defensive training was/is pure garbage .. he is in proper position in his own end in front of net when his partner in corner on left side yes but then he leaves net front with Devils in possession and glides toward corner and gets himself around dot .. then he realized OMG what da f*ck did I do when he sees easy pass to net front for an easy snipe .. then he goes to bench and Keefer puts his paper in front of his mouth and starts givin er to him and his face is going red .. and guess what he does not even miss a shift .. then Benn decides he is gonna be Bobby Orr and totally screws up next goal .. dude stick to ur knitting u got lucky in 1st 2 games everything went well in da pinches but that is not ur game man .. is someone telling these D to make these stupid moves .. omg coaching may be terrible here .. and Rielly well he just can't play any kind of defense at all and folks are cluing in now when he does not have Brodie bailing him out every shift .. this is one pure garbage defense right now and honestly to get a point with that defense is a miracle of all miracles .. oh well it was all Murray

But OT took da cake for me .. to get lucky and have a chance in OT and then put on JT and Mitch wow man .. those guys are not fast enough to handle Devils speed and they couldn't handle it all night long man .. Keefer did you watch da game .. gut feel .. what .. gut feel .. what ever happened to coaching to win in pro hockey .. go with ur best man .. forget gut feel .. any moron in building last night saw we had 1 guy going hard all night WILLY .. that's all we had .. and he does not start .. what da f*ck .. amateur hour .. sorry blowing off steam still .. boys in room must be pissed with Keefer .. here a tip Keefer .. watch da game and go with ur best that night in OT .. Rielly JT and Mitch all sucked badly .. each of them man .. I just don't get it Keefer

Always enjoy your rants about the defense. I still don't think it gets talked about enough just how utterly terrible this D is.

Couple guys on the Devils' D I was actually impressed with (don't really have much of a name around the league), Siegenthaler and Marino. Guys who make quick decisions like that and are always 1 move ahead of the forecheck are guys we desperately need on our defense.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Always enjoy your rants about the defense. I still don't think it gets talked about enough just how utterly terrible this D is.

Couple guys on the Devils' D I was actually impressed with (don't really have much of a name around the league), Siegenthaler and Marino. Guys who make quick decisions like that and are always 1 move ahead of the forecheck are guys we desperately need on our defense.

Right now we got Brodie, Lily and maybe Muzzy for playoffs (if things progress) .. that is not nearly enough defense for a long playoff run even if Murray steals a round or two (assuming he does not get hurt again) .. I am not yet convinced with Benn but he is a huge maybe .. we need 2 more guys who can play defense for playoffs .. Holl and Sandin need to exit stage right .. Rielly needs to be managed for offensive zone faceoffs .. always remember scoring dries up in playoffs and grinding teams who have tending and defense win 99% of time

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I hate to admit it, but Dougie Hamilton was solid last night.

That is kind of a funny take, with regards to the equipment.

Look at goalies a few decades ago.

They could almost be wearing shin pads, but those things were heavy. I volunteered to play net in one of our pick-up games and I stayed on my feet because I couldn't get up once I went down.

All goalies wear big equipment.

Agreed, but I'm still not convinced that Murray is as good as many are saying. All the goals that went in were not on him, but in the future he's going to have steal a game or two for TOR. I'm not sure he's there yet.