News Article: Lawless Calling Out 5 Key Players Of The "Atlanta Association"

[Duke749]

All fine comparables, but the trump card for me is still having our last 3 1st rounders in Scheifele, Trouba and Morrissey. Who knows what Atlanta would have done with those picks? Those guys count too. You can't just disregard them to fit your "comparables argument".

I see a better system after three drafts, all things considered. We can agree to disagree.

Not really fair comparables at all. Kane was entering his third season in year one in Winnipeg, Bogosian his fourth, Burmistrov his second.

At least Scheifele and Trouba are still rookies, heck many didn't know if they would be in the NHL or AHL at this point in the year. Morrissey is still playing Junior.

You're missing his point. His point is, until these guys prove us wrong, all the prospects Chevy has drafted are no different then the guys Atlanta originally had. That the organizational depth is no different then before. The only difference is the verdict is already out on the previous guys while we don't know about the current ones. Just because we don't know where their ceilings are, doesn't mean they're better.

 

[Grind]

Which comparaison is not apt.

Lipon v Machacek = Both 3rd round picks who projected to gritty 3rd line guys with some offensive potential. Machacek had 3 straight 20 goal AHL seasons. Lipon is currently on pace for 11 goals, 31pts in rookie AHL season (23g, 48pts for Mach). What's difference? If anything Machacek was a higher potential player as the "C" on a Mem Cup team.

Kichton v Postma = Basically clones. These has been shown several times, they have almost identical developement (Kichton this year is same age as Postma 2nd year in AHL)

Lowry v Cormier = Cormier was a 2nd v Lowry's 3rd. Cormier was the captain of Team Canada WJC, Lowry never made it. Both big strong twoway centres, Lowry showed more offense in 19 year old year. Real close though.

Kosmachuk v O'Dell = Both scoring players in junior game. Both have slight question marks with skating. Both are considered top 9 or bust players in an offensive role. Similiar stats all the way through.

Comrie v Pasquale = Pasquale got better every year in junior, well regarded goalie coming out junior. Comrie still appears to have the advantage with what seems to be higher potential, but in 2011 Pasquale for sure had legit starter potnetial.

Petan v Burmistrov = Both smaller prolific scoring players with unreal hands. Burmistrov in 2011 much higher regarded than Petan 2013 though.

Kostalek v Kulda = Both smooth skating positioning first pass defensive defensemen. Both projected to be safe bottom pairing defensemen with perhaps middle pairing potential as safe players.

Lodge v Telegin = Both are good junior scoring players. Not much known past that.

All are pretty much equivalent. We still have a few of the 2011 players though. And added a few other players like Morrissey, Trouba. It's better. It's not like it's miles better, we won't know that until we start seeing some results of it.

But really the Thrashers would have added those top picks anyways right? People like to talk about how much better we are doing than the Thrashers. I am not seeing it by any means.

I get where your going here Holden but I do think it's a little too negative.

Another thing that needs to be considered is the timeline in acquiring these players.

machacek, drafted 2007
Klingberg drafted 2009
postma drafted 2007
odell, drafted 2008, acquired
arturs kulda drafted 2006,
Cormier, drafted 2008, acquired 2010


thats 4 drafts worth of players. 6 players over 4 drafts.
We've matched that production (plus some) in only three. That's an important distinction.
as opposed to

Lowry
Lipon
kostalek
kichton
Lodge
Petan
Comrie
Hellebuck
Kosmachuk

9 in 3.

that's a significant difference, and it's not even included fringe but still possible prospects in Olsen and Copp.

EDIT: also keep in mind apparently there was 0 prospects of value acquired fromt he 2010 draft. Not one...
EDIT EDIT: I missed telegin.

 

[Grind]

You're missing his point. His point is, until these guys prove us wrong, all the prospects Chevy has drafted are no different then the guys Atlanta originally had. That the organizational depth is no different then before. The only difference is the verdict is already out on the previous guys while we don't know about the current ones. Just because we don't know where their ceilings are, doesn't mean they're better.

except it is. Only a slight improvement in quantity, but again, its more so the speed at which that quantity was acquired when compared to the past. That's part of the discussion that needs to be included.

 

[Duke749]

except it is. Only a slight improvement in quantity, but again, its more so the speed at which that quantity was acquired when compared to the past. That's part of the discussion that needs to be included.

I can agree with that.

 

[jetkarma*]

Another thing that needs to be considered is the timeline in acquiring these players.

machacek, drafted 2007
Klingberg drafted 2009
postma drafted 2007
odell, drafted 2008, acquired
arturs kulda drafted 2006,
Cormier, drafted 2008, acquired 2010


thats 4 drafts worth of players. 6 players over 4 drafts.
We've matched that production (plus some) in only three. That's an important distinction.
as opposed to

Lowry
Lipon
kostalek
kichton
Lodge
Petan
Comrie
Hellebuck
Kosmachuk

9 in 3.

that's a significant difference, and it's not even included fringe but still possible prospects in Olsen and Copp.

EDIT: also keep in mind apparently there was 0 prospects of value acquired fromt he 2010 draft. Not one...
EDIT EDIT: I missed telegin.

Agree with not all the prospects listed , as I pointed out , plus none of the previous group were high picks by the team , ) Cormier wasn't ) as I mentioned I really believe in this approach and the two things that would be different is getting more picks and better drafting. I think we have both.

 

[Guerzy]

except it is. Only a slight improvement in quantity, but again, its more so the speed at which that quantity was acquired when compared to the past. That's part of the discussion that needs to be included.

Nice point.

I think some are really looking into an argument that really isn't there. I'm not saying our current system "will" turn out better. I am saying as of today, our system and organizational depth is much improved (based on what we know and can see today) than when we got the team in 2011 as far as potential goes, projections, prospect rankings, grades, etc.

A young crop led by Scheifele, Trouba, Morrissey, etc. over Klingberg, Telegin, Cormier, Machacek, Maxwell...

All i'm sayin'. All I was ever saying.

 

[atl thrasher344]

Nice point.

I think some are really looking into an argument that really isn't there. I'm not saying our current system "will" turn out better. I am saying as of today, our system and organizational depth is much improved (based on what we know and can see today) than when we got the team in 2011 as far as potential goes, projections, prospect rankings, grades, etc.

A young crop led by Scheifele, Trouba, Morrissey, etc. over Klingberg, Telegin, Cormier, Machacek, Maxwell...

All i'm sayin'. All I was ever saying.

Obviously when you are comparing high first round picks to later picks, it's going to look lopsided.

Why do you include Trouba and Scheifele as current "young crop" but exclude Kane, Burmistrov, and Bogosian at the time of the move?

It's been two and three drafts since Scheifele and Trouba were drafted. Same as Bogosian and Kane when the team moved.

 

[KingBogo]

Let's call Bogo, Kane & Burmi a wash with Scheifele, Trouba & Morrisey especially considering draft position. IMO 5 out of 6 are/will be key members of this team. I think it is the next tier of prospects that really seperates the current group from the past group. It is now unlikely any of the past group will be significant additions to the team well Petan, Lowry, Kosmo still carry a lot of promise.

 

[Guerzy]

Obviously when you are comparing high first round picks to later picks, it's going to look lopsided.

Why do you include Trouba and Scheifele as current "young crop" but exclude Kane, Burmistrov, and Bogosian at the time of the move?

It's been two and three drafts since Scheifele and Trouba were drafted. Same as Bogosian and Kane when the team moved.

Because I was comparing our system/prospects today/beginning of this season to that of when we got the team in 2011.

Scheifele and Trouba are rookies, we didnt even know if they would be NHL'ers this year or AHL'ers. Morrissey is still in junior.

That's alot different than in 2011. Burmistrov was headed into his 2nd NHL season, Kane his 3rd, Bogosian his 4th.

That's the difference.

 

[Duke749]

Because I was comparing our system/prospects today/beginning of this season to that of when we got the team in 2011.

Scheifele and Trouba are rookies, we didnt even know if they would be NHL'ers this year or AHL'ers. Morrissey is still in junior.

That's alot different than in 2011. Burmistrov was headed into his 2nd NHL season, Kane his 3rd, Bogosian his 4th.

That's the difference.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Let me explain. You're trying to say it's apples to apples because of the context of it when in reality it's really oranges and oranges. Just because technically, it's apples to apples, doesn't mean that's the reality. God I wish I had a good analogy for this. lol

 

[3rdManIn]

Our Atl mediocrity continues.I had hoped in a few seasons this would turn around north of the border.

Especially now that it costs me $160 a season for Center Ice to follow them.

 

[ps241]

Our Atl mediocrity continues.I had hoped in a few seasons this would turn around north of the border.

Especially now that it costs me $160 a season for Center Ice to follow them.

We may have taken the team but for those of you who stuck it out though that mother of all hazing rituals the beatings will continue until moral improves

Sadly with the division change we took a couple of giant steps back as far as being a playoff team.

 

[3rdManIn]

We may have taken the team but for those of you who stuck it out though that mother of all hazing rituals the beatings will continue until moral improves

Sadly with the division change we took a couple of giant steps back as far as being a playoff team.

We're use to it.

Yep,that definitely didn't help.

 

[Guerzy]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Let me explain. You're trying to say it's apples to apples because of the context of it when in reality it's really oranges and oranges. Just because technically, it's apples to apples, doesn't mean that's the reality. God I wish I had a good analogy for this. lol

Uh...

So our system beginning this year/season cannot be compared to the piss poor state it was in when it was delivered at the doorstep of Winnipeg in 2011 when we got the team?

Ok...

 

[atl thrasher344]

Uh...

So our system beginning this year/season cannot be compared to the piss poor state it was in when it was delivered at the doorstep of Winnipeg in 2011 when we got the team?

Ok...

First, you seem to say Scheifele and Trouba were more valuable young commodities than Bogosian & Kane simply because they hadn't played in the NHL, which doesn't make sense to me. Second, the only reason why it seemed so night and day better before this season is that Winnipeg had 3 drafts and not one player playing in the NHL. Many teams had multiple players from the 2011 draft alone. It's not like this is a great team and all the prospects are blocked. If we truly had such an improved farm system, we would be seeing more than 2 Jets picks even play one second in the NHL after three years REGARDLESS of what the system was like previously.

 

[Guerzy]

First, you seem to say Scheifele and Trouba were more valuable young commodities than Bogosian & Kane simply because they hadn't played in the NHL, which doesn't make sense to me. Second, the only reason why it seemed so night and day better before this season is that Winnipeg had 3 drafts and not one player playing in the NHL. Many teams had multiple players from the 2011 draft alone. It's not like this is a great team and all the prospects are blocked. If we truly had such an improved farm system, we would be seeing more than 2 Jets picks even play one second in the NHL after three years REGARDLESS of what the system was like previously.

Huh? I said Scheifele and Trouba were more valuable young commodities than Bogosian & Kane simply because they hadn't played in the NHL? When? You are completely missing what it is I was even saying.

Apparently our system/prospects beginning this season can't be compared to the poor state it was in when we got the team. It was a simple observation in a simple reply to someone. Go back and read my original posts here in this thread. What I was saying was very simple. At least I thought it was.

 

[surixon]

First, you seem to say Scheifele and Trouba were more valuable young commodities than Bogosian & Kane simply because they hadn't played in the NHL, which doesn't make sense to me. Second, the only reason why it seemed so night and day better before this season is that Winnipeg had 3 drafts and not one player playing in the NHL. Many teams had multiple players from the 2011 draft alone. It's not like this is a great team and all the prospects are blocked. If we truly had such an improved farm system, we would be seeing more than 2 Jets picks even play one second in the NHL after three years REGARDLESS of what the system was like previously.

I don't think he was making any comparison between Kane, Bogo and Burmi and Scheifele, Trouba and Morrissey.

He was simply put making a case that our prospect depth at the beginning of the year when Sceheifele and Trouba were still considered prospects and not NHL players was superior to when they got the team where Bogosian, Kane and Burmi were already graduated prospects and shouldn't be counted as part of the prospect pool.

Whether the Jets first three first round picks turn out better than the last Atlanta three isn't really relevant to his point.

Or atleast this is my interpretation of his posts have been.

I personally think that all it does is show the difference in philosophy between the two regimes. The Jets held their picks out longer which would explain why the Jets pool was better.

 

[Guerzy]

I don't think he was making any comparison between Kane, Bogo and Burmi and Scheifele, Trouba and Morrissey.

He was simply put making a case that our prospect depth at the beginning of the year when Sceheifele and Trouba were still considered prospects and not NHL players was superior to when they got the team where Bogosian, Kane and Burmi were already graduated prospects and shouldn't be counted as part of the prospect pool.

Whether the Jets first three first round picks turn out better than the last Atlanta three isn't really relevant to his point.

Or atleast this is my interpretation of his posts have been.

I personally think that all it does is show the difference in philosophy between the two regimes. The Jets held their picks out longer which would explain why the Jets pool was better.

Thank you!

 

[KingBogo]

First, you seem to say Scheifele and Trouba were more valuable young commodities than Bogosian & Kane simply because they hadn't played in the NHL, which doesn't make sense to me. Second, the only reason why it seemed so night and day better before this season is that Winnipeg had 3 drafts and not one player playing in the NHL. Many teams had multiple players from the 2011 draft alone. It's not like this is a great team and all the prospects are blocked. If we truly had such an improved farm system, we would be seeing more than 2 Jets picks even play one second in the NHL after three years REGARDLESS of what the system was like previously.

Except it isn't after 3 years, we are less than half way through year 3. The start of next season will be after 3 years and my guess is there will likely be a couple more prospects make the team. I see Bogo, Kane & Burmi as being roughly equivalent to Scheifele, Trouba & Morrissey especially considering draft position. I believe the real strength of our prospect pool is that there appears to be a lot more potential NHLers in our current pool beyond the more obvious 1st rounders.

 

[Whileee]

The main problem with the Thrashers' legacy goes a bit further back. In 12 years (1999-2010) they had:

Six top 5 picks (including two #1 and two #2 overall).
Nine top 10 picks.

With that sort of draft opportunity they created the initial Jets 2.0 core and prospect pipeline. Most agree that the core was not good enough to be more than mediocre, and the prospect pipeline was ranked by almost everyone in the bottom tier of the league.

Clearly, there was some problem with both drafting and asset management (trades, etc.) that failed to convert so many drafts with high picks into a better core and a better prospect system.

Generally, I don't like to cherry-pick drafts and say they should have picked some specific player who was available after their pick who happened to turn out well, but Stefan at #1 and Lehtonen (a goalie) at #2 stand out as missed opportunities.

Bogosian is a nice young player (#3 overall in 2008), but a lot of teams got rich in that draft, including the Blues who got Pietrangelo at #4. Similarly, I like Burmi (#8 in 2010), but a lot of teams did better than that in that draft.

The only "home run" was Kovalchuk, and they got cents on the dollar when they traded him, instead of either stocking their prospect system or getting another top player or two.

No franchise can afford to whiff on these sorts of opportunities, either to draft right at the top or to trade a core player.

 

[Duke749]

I don't think he was making any comparison between Kane, Bogo and Burmi and Scheifele, Trouba and Morrissey.

He was simply put making a case that our prospect depth at the beginning of the year when Sceheifele and Trouba were still considered prospects and not NHL players was superior to when they got the team where Bogosian, Kane and Burmi were already graduated prospects and shouldn't be counted as part of the prospect pool.

Whether the Jets first three first round picks turn out better than the last Atlanta three isn't really relevant to his point.

Or atleast this is my interpretation of his posts have been.

I personally think that all it does is show the difference in philosophy between the two regimes. The Jets held their picks out longer which would explain why the Jets pool was better.

And our point is that it's silly to lump in two 1st round picks into the argument just because they were technically still prospects. Their comparables are still Kane and Bogosian. Both of which, did not need more time in junior.

Those two have nothing to do with the difference in philosophy as they had nothing left to accomplish in junior. Bogosian taking the college route would have been the only thing to make sense.

 

[atl thrasher344]

Huh? I said Scheifele and Trouba were more valuable young commodities than Bogosian & Kane simply because they hadn't played in the NHL? When? You are completely missing what it is I was even saying.

Apparently our system/prospects beginning this season can't be compared to the poor state it was in when we got the team. It was a simple observation in a simple reply to someone. Go back and read my original posts here in this thread. What I was saying was very simple. At least I thought it was.

First, I quoted the wrong post, I meant to quote your reply to me earlier up the page.
Second, I shouldn't have said that you thought they were more valuable. What I meant was that simply because they had played in the NHL, the lack of Bogosian, Kane, and Burmistrov skews that list so heavily on the Jets side. Yes, I understand the concept of "prospect" but that is discounting the fact that at the time the two Atlanta players and Burmistrov had very similar future worth to the team as the two Jets plus Morrissey.

Surixon makes an argument I can get behind, that when comparing them equally, the top three are a wash then the Jets have the advantage. I think comparing them any differently is not looking at it fairly.

Duke knows what I'm talking about, as usual.