OT: LA Angels of Anaheim Baseball Discussion (continued again)

[MMC]

Angels are interested in trading for Clevinger according to MLB.com

The Indians haven't been able to trade Clevinger because the price is way too damn high.
Not even Prime Haren netted an Adell or Lux in a trade nor did Cliff Lee from Indians to Phillies or Greinke to Angels from Brewers or Halladay from Jays to Phillies or Greinke to Brewers from Royals.

Indians will eventually have to settle on a lesser price unless some team overpays.

Well, Sale returned Moncada who was the #1 ranked prospect in baseball, Kopech who was top 30, Basabe, who was a top 10 prospect for Boston, and Diaz who was just a throw in prospect. Sale is a better pitcher than Clevinger, but not by that large of a margin, and they have the same amount of years left of control. It's not unreasonable for the Indians to want a return no less than half of what the White Sox got for Sale, and Adell is the Angels only bluechip prospect. So it's very likely the Angels won't be able to get him without giving up Adell.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

Well, Sale returned Moncada who was the #1 ranked prospect in baseball, Kopech who was top 30, Basabe, who was a top 10 prospect for Boston, and Diaz who was just a throw in prospect. Sale is a better pitcher than Clevinger, but not by that large of a margin, and they have the same amount of years left of control. It's not unreasonable for the Indians to want a return no less than half of what the White Sox got for Sale, and Adell is the Angels only bluechip prospect. So it's very likely the Angels won't be able to get him without giving up Adell.

Sale had thrown 190+ innings 4 times before he was traded, Clevinger has only reached 190+ IP once and missed 5 games as a starter in 2017 & 11 games as a starter in 2019 because of his health.
He only pitched 126 innings in 2019 and 121 in 2017.
Clevinger is not as safe of a bet to reach 190IP and is more likely to throw 120 innings than he is 190+

The Indians can hold onto him if they really want to while his remaining years before FA dwindle away.
Seems as though neither the Dodgers or Angels are gonna offer up Adell or Lux.

 

[Kalv]

I just had a wild thought that Dallas Stars might one day hire Dallas Eakins as their HC. THe headlines would be confusing and not only that

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Angels are interested in trading for Clevinger according to MLB.com

The Indians haven't been able to trade Clevinger because the price is way too damn high.
Not even Prime Haren netted an Adell or Lux in a trade nor did Cliff Lee from Indians to Phillies or Greinke to Angels from Brewers or Halladay from Jays to Phillies or Greinke to Brewers from Royals.

Indians will eventually have to settle on a lesser price unless some team overpays.

I went back to read about the trade on mlbtraderumors. On the comment sections, most fans believed the Angels raked the D'Backs. But the actual scouting media reporting liked the deal for the D'Backs, with a DiPoto quote really liking Corbin. 19-year old lefty Skaggs was the PTBNL, who was a first round pick. D'Backs sent their ace for a #3/4 starting pitcher and three pitching prospects. Initially, the deal looked like steal from a fans perspective b/c it didn't help the D'Backs immediately. Yet, DiPoto was looking long term with his prospects of Corbin, Rodriguez, and Skaggs... so where the scouting pundits. Turns out, DiPoto and the scouting pundits were correct after all with two of the three prospects blossoming.

Is Adell on Mike Trout level? No. Nowhere close. There is only one Mike Trout.

Clevinger is an absolute stud of an ace that costs only $4.5 mil this year and doesn't become an UFA until 2023 season. The latter facts on cost and control is what is most valuable for an ace on the trade market. If it's Clevinger for Adell straight up, I think the Angels win b/c Adell is still only a prospect and not a proven commodity at the Show level.

Do the Angels want to be instant contenders today, is the more pertinent question. As long as we're not sending back any top-15 pitching prospect or any MLB level pitching, then why not? I just want to reiterate the Angels scored 769 runs last year, the highest output under Eppler. At the same time, they allowed 868 runs to be scored upon. A -99 run deficiency is a huge gap to close and the only ace we have is resting on the hopes that Ohtani is fully recovered from TJ surgery to pitch effectively. Plus, do the Angels possess enough talent to be in wild card contention? Notice, I didn't say division winner b/c we're nowhere near that. But with so many other AL teams already better than us, we have a much steeper climb to get into playoff contention.

If you want good stuff, then you gotta trade away good stuff. The Indians finished 93-69 and still missed the playoffs. We're in the position of need at pitching and improving; the Indians are not. They can sit on Clevinger if they choose to keep him. We have nothing in our pitching system and having control over Clevinger for three seasons is huge!

 

[Deuce22]

I went back to read about the trade on mlbtraderumors. On the comment sections, most fans believed the Angels raked the D'Backs. But the actual scouting media reporting liked the deal for the D'Backs, with a DiPoto quote really liking Corbin. 19-year old lefty Skaggs was the PTBNL, who was a first round pick. D'Backs sent their ace for a #3/4 starting pitcher and three pitching prospects. Initially, the deal looked like steal from a fans perspective b/c it didn't help the D'Backs immediately. Yet, DiPoto was looking long term with his prospects of Corbin, Rodriguez, and Skaggs... so where the scouting pundits. Turns out, DiPoto and the scouting pundits were correct after all with two of the three prospects blossoming.

Is Adell on Mike Trout level? No. Nowhere close. There is only one Mike Trout.

Clevinger is an absolute stud of an ace that costs only $4.5 mil this year and doesn't become an UFA until 2023 season. The latter facts on cost and control is what is most valuable for an ace on the trade market. If it's Clevinger for Adell straight up, I think the Angels win b/c Adell is still only a prospect and not a proven commodity at the Show level.

Do the Angels want to be instant contenders today, is the more pertinent question. As long as we're not sending back any top-15 pitching prospect or any MLB level pitching, then why not? I just want to reiterate the Angels scored 769 runs last year, the highest output under Eppler. At the same time, they allowed 868 runs to be scored upon. A -99 run deficiency is a huge gap to close and the only ace we have is resting on the hopes that Ohtani is fully recovered from TJ surgery to pitch effectively. Plus, do the Angels possess enough talent to be in wild card contention? Notice, I didn't say division winner b/c we're nowhere near that. But with so many other AL teams already better than us, we have a much steeper climb to get into playoff contention.

If you want good stuff, then you gotta trade away good stuff. The Indians finished 93-69 and still missed the playoffs. We're in the position of need at pitching and improving; the Indians are not. They can sit on Clevinger if they choose to keep him. We have nothing in our pitching system and having control over Clevinger for three seasons is huge!

I don't think anyone is saying Adell is Mike Trout, although how soon people forget that Trout was not that highly regarded of a prospect at first. Adell is a top 5 prospect in all of baseball (some have him as high as 2 or 3). Rare are players with his combination of athletic tools and success on the field at a very young age. Trading a 20 year old stud with six years of team control for a 29 year old (good, not elite) starting pitcher is not what smart organizations do. It's a move born of desperation to win immediately, not be excellent in the long term. Clevinger would most likely help the Angels more than Adell this year, but their career values are not even comparable. It reminds me of Dodger fans wanting to trade Bellinger or Seager for Cole Hamels a few years ago.

 

[duxfan1101]

There are very few players I would trade Adell for at this point. I know he hasn't proven anything at the major league level, but his potential combined with the fact that he will be very cheap for at least the next 5 years makes him supremely valuable in my eyes. Clevinger would be a great piece to add, but if that means we have to give up Adell, then I'm not on board.

 

[ADHB]

The only way you trade Adell is for a pitcher with similar upside and similar years of control. It's highly unlikely this type of pitcher is available, but maybe if there's a team out there who's loaded with pitching prospects and doesn't have anything in their OF pipeline ready to make an impact.

But no way can you trade him for a guy in his late 20's with 2-3 years of control. And you may not even get that out of them, since a pitcher's value can go to zero pretty quickly around that age.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I don't think anyone is saying Adell is Mike Trout, although how soon people forget that Trout was not that highly regarded of a prospect at first.

You're joking, right? Our scouts made sure to select Trout 25th overall after selecting Grichuk 24th overall in the draft first so we can lower the pay slot for Trout! Our organization knew a lot about Trout and was hidden because he played in the northeast for high school, not known for top end baseball prospects. It's like us drafting Lindholm because he was playing in an obscure place for Rogle over the pond to the point where the tv telecast said he could probably in the Tour de France because of his endurance, which is all they knew about Lindholm. This is revisionist BS and disingenuous.

Just because you didn't know doesn't mean other baseball fans didn't know. The angels blog I usually follow knew the hype after he was drafted as many watched him as an 18 year old in Rancho Cucamonga after being promoted from low A during the season. Trout has speed for days, which was a known quantity from the Angels scouts who watched him playing HS ball.

 

[Deuce22]

You're joking, right? Our scouts made sure to select Trout 25th overall after selecting Grichuk 24th overall in the draft first so we can lower the pay slot for Trout! Our organization knew a lot about Trout and was hidden because he played in the northeast for high school, not known for top end baseball prospects. It's like us drafting Lindholm because he was playing in an obscure place for Rogle over the pond to the point where the tv telecast said he could probably in the Tour de France because of his endurance, which is all they knew about Lindholm. This is revisionist BS and disingenuous.

Just because you didn't know doesn't mean other baseball fans didn't know. The angels blog I usually follow knew the hype after he was drafted as many watched him as an 18 year old in Rancho Cucamonga after being promoted from low A during the season. Trout has speed for days, which was a known quantity from the Angels scouts who watched him playing HS ball.

23 players were selected in front of Grichuk/Trout. What order the Angels selected them isn't relevant. Unless your point is that the Angel scouts are the only smart ones in baseball.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Adell is a top 5 prospect in all of baseball (some have him as high as 2 or 3). Rare are players with his combination of athletic tools and success on the field at a very young age. Trading a 20 year old stud with six years of team control for a 29 year old (good, not elite) starting pitcher is not what smart organizations do. It's a move born of desperation to win immediately, not be excellent in the long term. Clevinger would most likely help the Angels more than Adell this year, but their career values are not even comparable. It reminds me of Dodger fans wanting to trade Bellinger or Seager for Cole Hamels a few years ago.

• Runs allowed in 2019: 868
• Runs scored in 2019: 769
• Run Differential: - 99

Current Pitching group, Starters: Ohtani, Teheran, Heaney (did we keep him?), Canning, Suarez, and Bundy for a six-man rotation

We do have Sandoval still developing. Ohtani's debut might be delayed and we don't know about Canning's recovery after being shutdown last year. We don't have much pitching developing at all right now. We just made a trade to acquire a fringe pitcher in Keller.

This is what you call a "smart organization"? The one where their 2019 first round pick, 15th overall, wasn't good enough to retain that we packaged him, SS Wilson, off with 3B Cozart to get rid of Cozart's $12.67 mil salary. Anaheim could have drafted the following pitchers in the draft 17th overall P Rutledge, 18th P Priester, 19th P Thompson, and 20th P Kirby. All four pitchers rank in the top-6 of their respective organizations. We don't have that high a pitching prospect right now.

For the past four seasons, the Angels have finished below .500. And you call this a smart organization?

The Angels are built to win now, not three years to five years from now. Offense isn't a problem for the Angels. It's the lack of pitching. In the past four seasons, the Angels have not prevented under 700 runs allowed! The year before Eppler took over as GM, the Angels gave up only 675 runs and finished above .500.

Recently, before talks about Clevinger and Adell, we denied access to prospect OF Marsh for pitching. Why? We have Trout at center and Upton at LF. Goodwin is at RF. Are we going to alternate between Adell and Marsh in the future? We just added a superstar 3B in Rendon and his AAV of $35 mil.

Now, Clevinger was out two months due to injury last year and doesn't qualify for a lot of stats, but he posted an ERA of 2.71 with an FIP of 2.49, starting 21 games with 126 innings pitched. In 2018, he actually pitched enough innings to be qualified (200 IP) and ranked 6th in the AL for ERA with 3.02 with an FIP of 3.52. In 2017, the year he remained at the MLB level, Clevinger started 21 games for 121 innings with an ERA of 3.11 and an FIP of 3.85. Each year, he's improved. His past three years ERA are better than what Ohtani's posted in his rookie season here as a 23 year old.

Those numbers seem elite-lite than "good". Gerrit Cole is 29 years old and will be making $36 mil a year. Clevinger will be making $4.5 mil this year and under control for two more years.

Did I mention that the Angels don't have any great pitching prospect core in the near future?

Clevinger should help out the Angels for the next three seasons at a top-end level. Adell is still trying figure things out as he struggled at AAA level last year as a hitter. Adell isn't near a finished product today nor next year. He may not be a top end product for a few more years. I wouldn't mind keeping if our pitching situation wasn't already dire with no help coming in the near future in our pipeline. But hey, I suppose seeing another year of finishing below .500 because we're stuck on hitting carrying far more greater importance than pitching throughout the organization just so I can boast having a top-5 prospect today that won't see fruition for another few years at top-end production to take over Upton's spot isn't just a novel idea. It's repetitious, truly.

I've held this argument before last year, Eppler placing greater import on positional players than pitching. Now that the season has come to a brutal end, I'm sadly proven correct. What's one more year of neglecting the pitching department after four consecutive seasons of neglect. LoL Cheers!

 

[IDuck]

its 7 days into january and im already focusing on the upcoming disapointing angels season....this is what the ducks have done to me.....angels arnt even on my radar until march usually

 

[duxfan1101]

its 7 days into january and im already focusing on the upcoming disapointing angels season....this is what the ducks have done to me.....angels arnt even on my radar until march usually

At least I have Rendon and eventually Adell to look forward to watching. Although I'm sure by June the Angels will have decimated any interest I had, and then it will be about the NHL draft.

 

[Deuce22]

• Runs allowed in 2019: 868
• Runs scored in 2019: 769
• Run Differential: - 99

Current Pitching group, Starters: Ohtani, Teheran, Heaney (did we keep him?), Canning, Suarez, and Bundy for a six-man rotation

We do have Sandoval still developing. Ohtani's debut might be delayed and we don't know about Canning's recovery after being shutdown last year. We don't have much pitching developing at all right now. We just made a trade to acquire a fringe pitcher in Keller.

This is what you call a "smart organization"? The one where their 2019 first round pick, 15th overall, wasn't good enough to retain that we packaged him, SS Wilson, off with 3B Cozart to get rid of Cozart's $12.67 mil salary. Anaheim could have drafted the following pitchers in the draft 17th overall P Rutledge, 18th P Priester, 19th P Thompson, and 20th P Kirby. All four pitchers rank in the top-6 of their respective organizations. We don't have that high a pitching prospect right now.

For the past four seasons, the Angels have finished below .500. And you call this a smart organization?

The Angels are built to win now, not three years to five years from now. Offense isn't a problem for the Angels. It's the lack of pitching. In the past four seasons, the Angels have not prevented under 700 runs allowed! The year before Eppler took over as GM, the Angels gave up only 675 runs and finished above .500.

Recently, before talks about Clevinger and Adell, we denied access to prospect OF Marsh for pitching. Why? We have Trout at center and Upton at LF. Goodwin is at RF. Are we going to alternate between Adell and Marsh in the future? We just added a superstar 3B in Rendon and his AAV of $35 mil.

Now, Clevinger was out two months due to injury last year and doesn't qualify for a lot of stats, but he posted an ERA of 2.71 with an FIP of 2.49, starting 21 games with 126 innings pitched. In 2018, he actually pitched enough innings to be qualified (200 IP) and ranked 6th in the AL for ERA with 3.02 with an FIP of 3.52. In 2017, the year he remained at the MLB level, Clevinger started 21 games for 121 innings with an ERA of 3.11 and an FIP of 3.85. Each year, he's improved. His past three years ERA are better than what Ohtani's posted in his rookie season here as a 23 year old.

Those numbers seem elite-lite than "good". Gerrit Cole is 29 years old and will be making $36 mil a year. Clevinger will be making $4.5 mil this year and under control for two more years.

Did I mention that the Angels don't have any great pitching prospect core in the near future?

Clevinger should help out the Angels for the next three seasons at a top-end level. Adell is still trying figure things out as he struggled at AAA level last year as a hitter. Adell isn't near a finished product today nor next year. He may not be a top end product for a few more years. I wouldn't mind keeping if our pitching situation wasn't already dire with no help coming in the near future in our pipeline. But hey, I suppose seeing another year of finishing below .500 because we're stuck on hitting carrying far more greater importance than pitching throughout the organization just so I can boast having a top-5 prospect today that won't see fruition for another few years at top-end production to take over Upton's spot isn't just a novel idea. It's repetitious, truly.

I've held this argument before last year, Eppler placing greater import on positional players than pitching. Now that the season has come to a brutal end, I'm sadly proven correct. What's one more year of neglecting the pitching department after four consecutive seasons of neglect. LoL Cheers!

I never said the Angels were a smart organization. I said smart organizations don't make the kind of trade you are advocating.

 

[IDuck]

At least I have Rendon and eventually Adell to look forward to watching. Although I'm sure by June the Angels will have decimated any interest I had, and then it will be about the NHL draft.

yup....that is my cycle as well...know that EXACT feeling

 

[jiggsawpuzzle35]

I can confirm that the Angels will be placing a metal detector and security officer in front of the visiting teams dugout when the Astros come to town.

 

[Ducks DVM]

Time for a new thread